We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are

[JulieK1980]

I have a hypothetical question to whoever...no one answered my first questions, so I don't expect much...

Basically, if a woman buys a pair of pants from the men's section of the store. She wears these pants that are NOT tailored to a woman, but matches these pants with an outfit that has other feminine clothes and accessory. Let's say she wears the men's pants with a lace blouse, a chunky necklace, and stilletos.

I'd say she isn't CDing. She's presenting as a woman.

Now, let's say that a man goes into the store and buys a blouse from the women's department. He wears this flowery blouse with typical male jeans, hiking boots, and a baseball hat. He's presenting as a man, but chose to wear a woman's top.

Is he CDing?

I feel like when we know how we answer this question and WHY we answer it this way then we can understand the OPs post on GGs in jeans, etc.

NOTE: I've only seen one person on this site who wore a skirt with everything else masculine. He said he wasn't a CD...he said he liked skirts. I didn't see any pics of him in breast forms, makeup, or a wig. But, in my hypothetical situation, imagine a man like this. Who chose one female accessory and wore everything else that was masculine. Or, even choses a dress to wear but wears no makeup, no shape enhancers, no wig, no feminine alternate name. It's Joe Bob and he wants to wear a dress. Is he CDing?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines it as:
CROSS-DRESSING: the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex
— cross–dress intransitive verb
— cross–dress·er noun

So by technicality, yes it would be crossdressing. However, life isn't so technically correct. There is a lot of grey in between the black and white. A lot of this debate revolves around perception. That's why no one really comes to agreement. What is a crossdresser to me is not the same as what a crossdresser is to you, and multiply this by however many people are responding to this thread.

In my opinion, it goes way beyond the simple wearing of clothes for MOST of us. (Not all) If they marketed a bra for men for example, I would probably still buy the bra meant for a woman.

[AnnaCalliope]

I don't know if this has been said yet -- its past 2AM here on the East Coast and I should have gone to bed hours ago -- but I was thinking about this on the way home from work.

I believe the general discontent a lot of us feel is not that women can wear trousers and pants and there's no complaints, but a guy in a skirt and its suddenly the end of world. Its the fact that women have so much more variety available to them that is socially acceptable. Guys get jeans, which come in blue, black and occasionally stonewashed. We get shorts, which can be denim or khaki. And slacks, which are usually navy, gray or black. That's it. Women get all that, but in a much wider range of colors and styles. Then there's tops, guys get sweaters, collared shirts, t-shirts and polos. Women get all that, plus halters, tube tops, corset tops, sheer and mesh, half sleeve, 3/4 sleeve, sleeveless, tank tops, blouses..the list goes on. Men's apparel has so little variation, and I think that's where a lot of the envy crossdressers have of women's fashion comes from.

[MichelleOBrien]

Look... I got through maybe a quarter of the first page of replies on here, and I gotta say a few things.

Yes, there are some MtFs who try to pass as a female, and do everything in their power to emulate one. Then there's others who could really care less, they just like wearing the clothes. Then you have the TGs on this site who truly believe they are female inside, and were given the wrong physical attributes.

For any single person, however, to broadly brush everyone on this site who was born with a penis in the same light, however, is just as sexist as what you're protesting against. Much like fingerprints, no one person on this site is the same. Losing the labels would help to a degree, but there's a bigger problem I'm seeing.

The trans community (trans-genders, transvestites, transsexuals) are seeking acceptance from everyone else in the world, which is fine. But how can we ask the world to accept us if we don't accept each other? I mean, if we're constantly going back and forth with this constant BS infighting, how can we ever hope to be accepted by the rest of the world for whatever we are? Whether it's a man who likes to wear skirts, or somebody who firmly believes they are the opposite gender of their biological sex, we're all in the same boat.

Now if we could move on to less dramatic things, I'd like to go shopping at some point.

[ReineD]

Then there's tops, guys get sweaters, collared shirts, t-shirts and polos. Women get all that, plus halters, tube tops, corset tops, sheer and mesh, half sleeve, 3/4 sleeve, sleeveless, tank tops, blouses..the list goes on.

That's just it! Why else would a guy want to wear the sexy things a woman wears (and may I add ... the sexy things a woman wears that are designed specifically to appeal to men), such as tube tops, halters, corset tops, sheer & mesh tops, etc, and say that he doesn't wish to emulate a female, and there is no desire to cross any gender lines?

GGs who wear women's pants do NOT wish to present male. One member a few pages back described a woman (not a transman) who wore men's clothes & shoes (from a men's store) to his work place and she was not looked down upon. She may not have been where you live, but where I live, people would see her as being butch as she would suffer some form of discrimination.

Also, a few people in this thread have said that if skirts and dresses were ordinary, acceptable clothing choices for men as well as women, then they (perhaps) would not have gone the full route to presenting as women when wearing these things, since they wouldn't have stood out (by being a guy in a dress). They would not have become CDers. I mean no disrespect when I say this just doesn't make sense. If the urge to wear feminine things wasn't any stronger than a mere desire to wear skirts for ease and comfort, why risk jeopardizing job, marriage, family, and friends? Why wear breast forms and panties in private?

And to Leslie: back a few pages you said that surely there must be an erotic component when women wear what you consider to be men's styles, I say that you could not be farther from the truth! Honestly.

I think that the CDers who compare their own desire to wear skirts to a woman's ability to wear pants are creating smoke screens, if not for others, then for themselves.

[MichelleOBrien]

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP. So... not to be mean, but this feels kinda like...

"Pot to Kettle: you're black"

[noeleena]

Hi,

WOW 130 posts hmmm 131 now , & i never said a word... so i wont....no need any way,


...noeleena...

[Pink Person]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree. People who claim it's all about the clothes are hilariously out of touch with the truth.

Cisgender people don't dress or behave in significant ways that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Women who wear clothes that are designed for and sold to women are not crossdressers. Women who wear clothes that were designed for men in a manner that doesn't obscure and isn't intended to obscure their cisgender identities are not crossdressers.

Cisgender crossdressers are like unicorns. They exist in your imagination, but not in the real world.

[JulieK1980]

All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree.

Absolutely!! I think the ultimate reason this topic is debated so much is because of the denial of this statement. I think many of us refuse to acknowledge that we are in fact transgendered.

[Rianna Humble]

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP.

So let me get this right, Michelle, in your opinion, when Sandra said

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.

she was not talking about the fact that women who wear women's trousers/pants are not crossdressing? In your opinion, what was she talking about?

[sissystephanie]

Shananigans, if a lady is wearing men's pants she is a crossdresser, regardless of what else she is wearing. The same is true of a man who dresses masculine except for a feminine top. That is definitely crossdressing! Once again I will repeat the rule; if you wear clothing designed and made for the opposite sex you are crossdressing!! It really is very simple!! I am a man, born that way!! But I go out in public wearing skirts and other feminine appeal. I look, from the neck up, like the man that I really am!! But all my clothes are feminine! Am I a crossdresser? Of course I am!! I am wearing clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, therefore I am a crossdresser!! It seems some people on this forum just cannot grasp that idea!!

Michelle Obrien, what I said about the OP is exactly what Sandra was talking about. Women who wear pants made for women are NOT crossdressing!! that is what she was talking about, and so was I!!

[Joanne f]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree.

I disagree for the reason that we have been brought up to believe that clothes are designed for a particular gender to wear and not to create a gender by wearing them , transgender people wear clothes to help identify with their particular gender that they wish to be at a given time , there are many men who just enjoy wearing skirts and do not wish to cross any sort of gender line and also there are some that do face the conundrum of whether it is better to go out just dressed as a male wearing a skirt and top or is it safer to present as a female not necessarily because they need to but because they feel it is safer that way , there are also many women that enjoy wearing a mans shirt or jeans without wishing to or wanting to cross any gender line , this is not an exclusive part of a reason to wear clothes that may have been designed for the opposite gender by women alone as there are men like it as well no were near as may as ones that may have transgender feelings but never the less they are still out there .

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree. People who claim it's all about the clothes are hilariously out of touch with the truth.

Cisgender people don't dress or behave in significant ways that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Women who wear clothes that are designed for and sold to women are not crossdressers. Women who wear clothes that were designed for men in a manner that doesn't obscure and isn't intended to obscure their cisgender identities are not crossdressers.

Cisgender crossdressers are like unicorns. They exist in your imagination, but not in the real world.

Fantastic...Pink...i love what you are saying....

this is really a 3rd rail topic...

those of you that are trying to pin a label on women have to realize a simple thing.....it's a double standard...females are free to wear WHATEVER and it's not crossdressing unless she is trying to be accepted as male...tell a lesbian gal in crewcut, jeans and flannel she's a crossdresser and you can then enjoy a nice punch in the face..

Calling out gg's for crossdressing is a waste of time...trying to satisfy your own shame and guilt issues by trying to expand labels to others is irrelevant to what is going on in your skirt anyway...

there is nothing at all wrong with crossdressing...if you truly believed this about yourself, then you wouldn't be posting all the contorted logic

[MichelleOBrien]

So let me get this right, Michelle, in your opinion, when Sandra said she was not talking about the fact that women who wear women's trousers/pants are not crossdressing? In your opinion, what was she talking about?

The actual point is in the title of the thread. "We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are". The point was *not* however that women wearing women's pants or men wearing men's skirts are not crossdressing. that's what we call an example.

[Pythos]

I don't know if this has been said yet -- its past 2AM here on the East Coast and I should have gone to bed hours ago -- but I was thinking about this on the way home from work.

I believe the general discontent a lot of us feel is not that women can wear trousers and pants and there's no complaints, but a guy in a skirt and its suddenly the end of world. Its the fact that women have so much more variety available to them that is socially acceptable. Guys get jeans, which come in blue, black and occasionally stonewashed. We get shorts, which can be denim or khaki. And slacks, which are usually navy, gray or black. That's it. Women get all that, but in a much wider range of colors and styles. Then there's tops, guys get sweaters, collared shirts, t-shirts and polos. Women get all that, plus halters, tube tops, corset tops, sheer and mesh, half sleeve, 3/4 sleeve, sleeveless, tank tops, blouses..the list goes on. Men's apparel has so little variation, and I think that's where a lot of the envy crossdressers have of women's fashion comes from.

This is the best statement I have seen on this thread so far. This states everything I at least feel. Why do women get a HUGE range of clothing choices, and men....well we get what we get. I also hate the fact my mental abilities and worth are questioned because I chose a skirt to wear on a particular day instead of slacks?

I have also said many times, I probably would not have gotten into full on emulation of a female, at least in looks, had I not been restricted in what I could wear. I would have perfected or really improved my androgynous look to be viable for the public. But, because I am male, I cannot wear make up, something that IS NOT inherently female, long hair, and nice fun styles, including skirts.

I made an illustration of a much wilder example of what I mean, in the photos section.

[Wendi_cd]

My wife made the point once, should men be wearing skirts and women be wearing pants? After all, it's the men who need the room (and air!), not a seam jamming everything together.

It's also worth remembering that there was a time when women weren't allowed to wear pants.

Maybe one day, when humans have evolved a little more, we'll stop judging and classifying people by the clothes they are wearing.

[Sandra]

Okay I haven't been ignoring this thread just reading and seeing what people have had to say. Some people have got what I was trying to say in that women wearing trousers/pants that are made for women are not crossdressing, yet some here still say we are. How can we be crossdressing if we are wearing the clothes designed and made for us?

I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond.

[Shananigans]

If they marketed a bra for men for example, I would probably still buy the bra meant for a woman.

That's the key right there that I was looking for...

Thank you

[kimdl93]

There's no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't wear men's sandals, men's panty hose, men's bikini brief, or a man's satin robe for that matter. They may all look virtually alike, but for me that's not the point. I want and need to wear women's garments. My wife wears my t-shirts all the time...she's not cross dressing. Its no "need" for her, its just handy.

[Emma England]

I am currently wearing a denim skirt and tights (pantyhose for the US). Both of which I bought from a store that does not state whether they are selling men's or women's clothes.

In my opinion, clothes do not have a gender. So crossdressing is never really possible.

What determines whether pants are for women or men? They are always bifurcated (split into two legs) garments.

[marissa_sissy]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

[Rianna Humble]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

You are right about the name of the site, but the headers state quite clearly that this site is for Crossdressers, their family and friends. Just because a GG comes to this site and offers support, that does not make her a crossdresser. I went onto the Nile once and that didn't make me a crocodile either.

Incidentally, if it was a condition of belonging to this community that you have to cross-dress, possibly half the members would be forced to leave when you take into account the SO's, the friends, those of us who are TS and other sundry family members. If that happened, this would cease to be a support site.

[Sandra]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

So are you saying that because I joined this site I have to put up with being called a crossdresser? If so that's a load of crap, I came here to support and offer advice not to be told because I wear trousers/pants made for women that I'm a crossdresser.

[Shananigans]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

I say call me what you want because I'll take it with a grain of salt. (I too am on this site to support my SO and to support the TG community). My MAIN concern for those saying that GGs wearing jeans are CDing is the bigger picture that they are missing/are in denial of. This finger pointing of saying, "Ah hah! Look! You women do it too! It's exactly the same! Don't judge me!" is a complete downplay of what CDing really is to a CD. I hear it all of the time on the site what it really means on a deeper level and being a key aspect a CD's personality. So, saying it's a key aspect of your personality and then turning around and pointing at a GG and saying, "Oh you're a CD and you don't realize it" is completely stupid. (And, I'm not saying that YOU'RE saying these things in particular...I'm just speaking my general concerns when looking at the majority). I also am concerned by those saying that they CD because not enough women are dressing up. It's funny when you read things like this, but at the end of the day it's just sad.

So, yes, call me a CD if you would like, but when you tell me how important this is to your personality and how much it impacts your life, I won't take you seriously or empathize for you at all.

[Kelly DeWinter]

So are you saying that because I joined this site I have to put up with being called a crossdresser? If so that's a load of crap, I came here to support and offer advice not to be told because I wear trousers/pants made for women that I'm a crossdresser.

Absolutly not, if someone said "Sandra, you are a crossdresser because you wear pants." that would be wrong. No more then when I get asked "Are you gay ?", because I wear earrings. It's a pretty ignorant person who makes general assumptions.
and you are appricated for your support and advice.

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

yes you can, I belong to a Womens Business Networking Group, but it does'nt make me a woman. (although it's crossed my mind a few times to attend enfem)

I am currently wearing a denim skirt and tights (pantyhose for the US). Both of which I bought from a store that does not state whether they are selling men's or women's clothes.

In my opinion, clothes do not have a gender. So crossdressing is never really possible.

What determines whether pants are for women or men? They are always bifurcated (split into two legs) garments.

I think it depends on weather you are presenting as male or female.

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP. So... not to be mean, but this feels kinda like...

"Pot to Kettle: you're black"

All the kettles in my kitchen are red, what does that mean ?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I think one of the big issues here is that the debate is almost as much over our individual definitions of the term crossdresser as much as it is about what is or isn't crossdressing. Also, I think for some people "crossdressing" describes an activity where as for others "crossdresser" defines a part of someone's identity. So to some people a woman wearing pants sold for men (which happens frequently enough) is "crossdressing," but that doesn't make her a "crossdresser."

I've never really minded calling what I do crossdressing, because for me, I'd rather get past the semantics of the whole thing and just say, yeah I wear this stuff, and just be accepted for that. Having said that, I'm not really sure if I consider the way I dress 99% of the time I wear women's clothes to be "crossdresing" or not. I just started dating a new girl and when I had the little "so I do this sometimes" talk with her, she mentioned she often wears men's boxers around the house and sometimes wears men's pants to work. If this isn't considered crossdressing, then I don't really think what I do should be either. However if someone were to say "Oh Rye, you're crossdressing today." I sort of have to say to myself, I wear skirts, I wear tights, I wear makeup. As Shananigans would say, I'm a duck.

It's funny, I honestly get as frustrated as Sandra does when people throw the "women crossdress all the time!" argument, because I think it's a false equivalency as well. I also think it doesn't really serve any purpose of moving any sort of flags towards equality. And even within this very thread there's evidence of something I've said many many times, which is that MtF crossdressers for the most part don't seem to really want to change what is or what is acceptable for men to wear, but actually almost seek to reinforce gender stereotypes by insisting one must play the role of a woman in order to wear the clothes women get to wear.