Hypothesis: Spectrum from CD to TG to TS

[Phoebe P.]

In addition to my chosen profession, I have a degree in Chemistry with an extensive background in Anatomy & Physiology.

Stay with me, there's a point here!

All fetuses start out as females. Part way through pregnancy there is a Testosterone Wash that occurs. This causes the transformation from Female to male for the fetus.

If there is no Testosterone Wash, the child is born a FM. If there is, the child is born a male. With the Testosterone Wash the clitoris changes to the penis.

It's been a while, but stay with me. This has bothered me since I was 19 in Anatomy & Physiology...

I've seen many posts about a spectrum of T/G.

If a fetus receives an "incomplete" Testosterone Wash would that make them more likely to portray feminine traits OR in the case of a female baby if she received more testosterone than estrogen would that make her more likely to display masculine traits?

The TW would explain the range of people and personalities on this board -- from very feminine GG's to CD's to TS pre & post-op to TM.

This has bothered me for years and I can't believe no one has researched it!

What do you think?

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Interesting, how can we test this hypothesis? Are there any articles in any of the scientific journals in reference to this idea?

[Phoebe P.]

http://www.dcdoctor.com/pages/rightp...velopment.html

It was in my textbook in A&P in college. I've done research and all babies start out the same -- a blank slate.

If you do a search you'll turn up some surprising info. John's Hopkins might help!

[Phoebe P.]

Check the 8th week of development in the link.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I have no idea in biology, and simple anatomy i know I have masculine parts I curse hence this stupid question: in the 8th week the testes produces testosterone before the embryo develops masculine parts so when does this Testosterone wash happen, or is this the hypothetical suggestion? Also has there been an "innateness" implanted through genetics that causes some things to arise seemingly natural before the brain starts to develop, example female traits or is this naturally learnt during the babies development with its surroundings and more women who are caring for the infant? Hence the infant's fast learning phase absorbs more feminine ideas than masculine and so develops this female side leading to a yearning for female things? OR am I talking garbage.

[Rianna Humble]

If a fetus receives an "incomplete" Testosterone Wash would that make them more likely to portray feminine traits OR in the case of a female baby if she received more testosterone than estrogen would that make her more likely to display masculine traits?

If we are talking about the "wash" that determines sex rather than gender, then I believe that the "incomplete wash" would contribute to the incidence of intersex condition.

My understanding is that there is more than one release of hormones during pregnancy where one determines sex and another gender (i.e. the 2nd affects the development of the brain) BICBW.

IMNSHO, the hormone release that determines gender could well account for a part of why we have such a broad spectrum of members since the outcome is not binary it could lead to greater or lesser degrees of feminine brain-gender (whether that be in FtMs with a female body but a stronger or weaker male identity or in MtFs with a male body but a stronger or weaker female identity). However, I do believe that there are also other factors that come into play.

[Pink Person]

I believe whole life sex hormone exposure is the primary cause of all sex, gender, and sexual variation in the human population. Hormone exposure as we develop before birth and mature after birth makes everyone different. Some of these differences are significant. Consequently, transgender people are just as natural as cisgender ones, but not as common.

[Kate Simmons]

Biologically this is true but the CDing quirk has to mainly do with societal conditioning for the most part.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Then youll need to look at those of us who are intersexed androgynous & a mix of both male female go down our road & youll see who we are. try ,

Bodies like ours
GendersInX.org

There are others of cause mind you if your not interesex you may not get in im on three .

...noeleena...

[kimdl93]

Its actually been researched. I saw a segment on 60 minutes over a year ago that addressed the effect of birth order and the gender of elder siblings on gender and sexual preference. It seems that if you have an older brother (immediately elder sibling) you have a somewhat higher probability of being homosexual or of having a more feminine gender identification (regardless of outward genetalia). The probability increase with each elder male sibling that preceeds you. I have six - so what do you suppose happened!!!!

[Debglam]

I think that it is a little more complicated than that Phoebe. I am currently reading "The Riddle of Gender" by Deborah Rudacille and she went into this in some detail. (I'm no scientist, mind you )

There is the influx of hormones at key times but there are also receptors that have to be properly functioning to receive those hormones. It has been found that certain drugs that used to be prescribed for pregnancy were functioning as "blockers" and causing intersex physical conditions. It is theorized that this may also have led to GID conditions.

There is also a point which I think I need to re-read but if I understand it correctly, levels of testosterone in the mother trigger levels of estrogen, and the reverse is true also. This has an effect.

All very interesting and I personally believe that this is the most likely cause of transgenderism.

Thanks,
Debby

[Kitty Sue]

Interesting. Over the past several days I have been wondering about this. I went to trans. support meeting on Sunday. After the meeting I spoke with a trans woman. She insisted that CD, andregen. type people did not actually exist. Rather, the only 2 genders were either male/female. I interpreted her opinion as "you(meaning me) are to scared to admit you are a trans-woman, and therefore transition." I told her my experience was different from hers(at least at the moment.)

I do not think I want permanent female body parts, but I do not want permanent male body parts either. I suppose what I really want is a magic wand.

I apologize for going off topic, however this has occupied my thoughts for the last few days and this thread seemed to reinforce my belief that once again there are indeed shades of grey between the black and white poles and it is okay today for me to be, me.

I did read several years ago that if a pregnant woman went through a significant level of stress gender identity in the child could be affected. Supposedly a study in Germany looked at children of the baby boom in Cologne. During the war allied bombers turned the city into rubble. In the worst areas that received the heaviest bombing, the study found there were higher numbers of adult children identifying as homosexual. Granted the study looked at gay v straight, not trans folks. However, I cannot help but wonder if this is similar for those of us in the trans community too.

So thanks very much for original question. I suppose I simply received a partial wash. Not at all surprising as I never even wash my face properly after shaving each morning.

[sometimes_miss]

Nature or nurture; I'm sure that if you study every single human, you'll find every possible combination of causes of gender varieties.

[Cynthia Anne]

Don't know much about this! But when my testosterone was washed, the water was cold and very dirty!

[Rianna Humble]

Don't know much about this! But when my testosterone was washed, the water was cold and very dirty!

.

[Julogden]

That might explain some of us, but I think there's been work done on brain structure showing that some gender identity variations may be related to genetics rather than incomplete testosterone wash.

I suspect that variations in testosterone sensitivity might be more of a factor, but I'm speculating based on some of the things I read and don't know of any work that addresses variations in testosterone sensitivity. I do know that some males are completely insensitive to testosterone, so even though the testosterone wash occurs, their body doesn't react to it and they are born with external female genitalia and are assigned as female at birth.

Carol

[Jorja]

I keep trying to tell people the true cause of transgenderism but no body will listen. It's the aliens!

[BreenaDion]

You Tube -TEDxTerryTalks-alexander Cannon-10-03-09
http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXRuwh5WqMI
I think Terry explains it so we all can understand.
Breena.

[GirlieAmanda]

OMG I have the same exact theory and my therapist has confirmed the exact theory. Wow chills here. I KNOW this has to be it. It makes total sense. How can kids at a young age have a desire to be more female and try female things. It is programmed at that point. The chemistry in the brain HAS to change forever. I feel this absolutely is true. There is no escaping these feelings for us. You can't throw it away, you can't quell it forever, you can't pray it out, you can't drug it out. It will come back because it is just in your brain. To what degree is the question I think and that determines how far you feel you need to go to feel right.

[suzy]

Interesting thread. I don't have a clue, but I do know we all start out in the womb as a female, hence nipples. In my case, my mother had several boys and they desperately wanted a girl. That was on their mind as they began working on another pregnancy....me. They didn't know my gender until after birth, but both parents expected a girl. I was treated differently than my brothers, with a much more feminie flair sometimes even wearing dresses as a child while at home.

My testerone levels have always been low, and I have little body hair. Very little facial hair and no chest hair. I have a full head of hair and pubic hair but the hair on my legs is light....am wondering how the parents expectations played a part, if any in my physical characterists and/or my desire to dress?? Just wondering....

[Persephone]

I used to teach some of this stuff at a university and agree with sometimes_miss and Julogden. You are looking at only one of at least six possible causes. And the six can work individually or together to produce differing degrees of gender identity and/or sex organs.

In addition to "testosterone wash," there are also things that can influence or damage the X and Y sex determination chromosomes.

In the sex chromosome pair (pair 23) there can even be missing or surplus chromosomes, so all or part of you can be XO (no second sex chromosome), XX (female norm), XY (male norm), XXY, XYY, XXX, or ???

Then there appear to be sex and gender genes on other chromosomes that can control subtle (and sometimes even not so subtle) expressions of sex and gender.

Then there are the mother's hormone levels and the levels of hormones in the fetus, along with when in development the various "washes" occur.

and on and on and so forth.

That could explain why there is so much variation in the CD/TG/TS/whatever spectrum and why each of us is a unique and different individual, not easily subject to being categorized and labeled.

[GaleWarning]

Great thread! Wouldn't it be nice if, as a result of it, we stopped trying to put each other in boxes and instead switched our focus to the things we have in common?

[LilSissyStevie]

There is no use in trying to determine "the" cause of TGism. Gender appears to be a complex interaction between physical and cultural factors as well as individual experiences and choices. Gender isn't even static in any one individual. My mother took DES while pregnant with me but I can't know if that was a factor for me. I also had some childhood experiences that could be used to explain my gender issues, but they could also be used to explain why if I had become a serial killer or a Buddhist monk. LOL! We tend to take whatever known facts we have and spin them into a story that explains what we see. When we get new facts the story gets revised, ad infinitum. That gives us the illusion that we have some measure of control over our world. Sometimes it's better to just accept things without any explanation.

[Shananigans]

It's hard to say. It's the whole nature versus nurture argument and it's probably a blend of both things.

Or, maybe pre-op transsexuals are like fish...there aren't enough female fish in their community so they change their sex. But, probably not.

Though knowing some mating strategies of different animals could lend some interesting hypotheses as to the implications on transgendered people. Is it evolutionarily favorable in the long run? Again, probably not. But, neither is birth control...unless we let only the "awesome" people breed. But, then all TG people and probably myself don't make the cut.

I'll keep running around in circles on biological debates; however, my point is that it's going to be hard to throw a paper down and say "this shows a correlation with this" when it comes to TG people. There are so many differing factors as far the person's background that it would be hard to pin point one specific event. Also, good luck at getting approval to test variable testosterone washes in utero for humans and then seeing what happens to them in the long run.

Thus, no new shiny paper in Cell about it because...

No data...no paper...no statistics...

Your guess is as valid as anyone else.

[UNDERDRESSER]

I used to teach some of this stuff at a university and agree with sometimes_miss and Julogden. You are looking at only one of at least six possible causes. And the six can work individually or together to produce differing degrees of gender identity and/or sex organs.

In addition to "testosterone wash," there are also things that can influence or damage the X and Y sex determination chromosomes.

In the sex chromosome pair (pair 23) there can even be missing or surplus chromosomes, so all or part of you can be XO (no second sex chromosome), XX (female norm), XY (male norm), XXY, XYY, XXX, or ???

Then there appear to be sex and gender genes on other chromosomes that can control subtle (and sometimes even not so subtle) expressions of sex and gender.

Then there are the mother's hormone levels and the levels of hormones in the fetus, along with when in development the various "washes" occur.

and on and on and so forth.

That could explain why there is so much variation in the CD/TG/TS/whatever spectrum and why each of us is a unique and different individual, not easily subject to being categorized and labeled.

I knew there were other factors involved, but didn't want to go researching them now, thanks for this post. The whole thing on nurture is open for debate as well, so your Mother was a strong personality? WHY was she strong? Did she have extra chromosomes? Weak testosterone wash? Get the idea?

I would love for someone to do a detailed analysis of what the various types of people in the spectrum have as a...physical basis. Do those that feel they have to transition have extra/reduced chromosomes? Do those who just want to dress have reduce testosterone?

Is there some kind of physical basis? Are there identifiable differences in the brain? I'm just such a nerd, I always ask these sorts of questions.