I think people really aren't seeing what the true point of the matter is...it's not about who is emulating who or whatever...it's about telling someone that their opinion does not matter (or just disregarding someone's opinion) because of the fact that they are women.
THAT is the case and point and the real depressing issue.
Who really cares who emulates who? Just try to emulate a human being at the end of the day and not a total douche.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
I have to agree with you.Originally Posted by juno
I agree and I have found better growth in group sessions and group events. The internet is full of opinions of what makes a woman and what makes a man! I use the resources of the web as guidelines and not law!
Could it be that some of the problems arise from what is considered feminine? Wikipedia provides a decent definition - "Femininity (also called femaleness or womanliness) is the set of female qualities attributed specifically to women and girls by a particular culture." Just as some cultures require head covering for women (making it feminine) doesn't mean that all cultures would view head coverings as feminine. Those voicing opinions that a gal isn't feminine enough may be speaking out of an outlook of what they consider feminine which they compare GGs to and say "they don't match." It is their conception of what is feminine that needs to change as well as the person's behavior (intolerance is intolerable).
Shananigans
You hit the nail on the head with this simple post, however you arecos you is a GG
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
Some of us can sympathize and empathize. The others should read SeanMuscles comments in the jealousy thread, and then (after getting angry) will be able to understand how it feels to be minimized and stereotyped. Of course the more stubborn ones will refuse to see the similarity.Shananigans
You hit the nail on the head with this simple post, however you are
I have the up most respect for any GG who would even think about putting up with a Cder and I have made that clear many times in here.. I am not suggesting that anyone is pointing fingers in my direction either as I am reading some of these post.
So in a very polite and calm way I would like to comment about some of these post that are comming across as a borderline male bashing party. Guess what? GG's can be wrong also no one is perfect . I will admit I have seen plenty of GG's getting harp on in here and I will not defend that its wrong to bash anyone not just GG's. But, if I feel that if something a GG is suggesting is wrong I will simple reply that does not account for all from here on out .. Now what happens after that who knows? I do not wish for any GG to take it as me being offensive in anyway if I feel different than their beliefs,now if that isn't human enough Im banging my head!
I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.
I bet this site would be a dull boring place if it was not for our GG's. I particularly like reading their opinions and feelings about what we all do. All you have to do is be a member of the GM only section to see how little is posted there. Especially if it has to do with emotions. If we did not have our beloved GG's here, all we'd have would be the stupid threads like "what color panties are you wearing today." If threads like that were all we had, this would be a boring place to be. Ever notice our GG's don't post to threads like that? Thank God.
What really gets me mad is when I see a thread were the wife or SO of a CD is having issues over her partner's crossdressing and is either worried or hurting and someone comes along and suggests it's the GG's fault for not understanding accepting or other wise has self esteem issues! It makes me think that person is exactly the type that would create issues with his partner... if he had a wife or partner. My guess is it's those that don't have an accepting wife or girlfriend that generalize about GG's in a negative way. There are many GG's here that I admire and respect above all others. There posts are sincere, honest and from the heart. Not to mention it gives us an insight into the hearts and minds of those most of us try to emulate when it comes to more then clothes.
:-) I've never felt the urge to look into the panties thread... but then, I feel that's fair. I don't have to look, and it doesn't harm me any to have people sharing that information with each other!
Perhaps one of the biggest differences between the GGs who post on here and the CDers, TGs and TSs of all shapes and sizes is who we're here for - the CDers etc. are here for themselves, first and foremost whereas the GGs end up here because of other people (even those GGs who come out of curiosity/looking to meet a CDer do it for the sake of a future relationship or at least knowledge of something outside their experiences). That sphere of "wanting to know more about this thing that X person I care about does," is very tinted with our emotional connection to that person who 'introduced us' to this CDing world. Strong love, strong shock, strong horror, strong curiosity, strong desire - being here means we explore our emotions. For many of the various transfolk here, this site (and others like it) are a place to finally 'be normal' and hopefully not judged for who they are; so, I can see the tendency to talk about mundane sorts of things when the chance occurs. Also, with the GM forum? Everyone in on that side of the fence is pretty much right here, so unless there's something you don't want your SO (for example) to see why not put it here?
I TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THIS. I remember seeing a GG who had been struggling with her relationship for years since her TS husband came out to her, then moved at lightning speed towards life 24/7 without totally being clear where she was headed... sticking with her husband meant the GG lost a lot of family and friends, put the two of them at considerable financial strain, and drained her emotionally - this GG felt like she had nothing left over to deal with her own problems, health and otherwise. At probably the most stressful part of everything (for the GG at least), her husband called it quits; she didn't want to be married to her wife anymore. The GG in question - who had completely changed her whole life, and struggled to accept her partner for who SHE was in the face of everyone else in her world - poured her heart out on one of the boards here... only to be told by one of the TS women here words to the effect, "It's a shame you could not have been more accepting of this all, your SO deserved better." It honestly made me cry, that a woman with no knowledge of how this other woman had suffered through the last few years of her life could judge her so quickly and so incorrectly.
Yup. This really sums up EVERYTHING IN LIFE. QFT.
Hi Lucy, unless I am very much mistaken, it was never the OP's intention to say that women can never be wrong, but there are ways to disagree without putting the other person down as being without value. I believe that you usually disagree respectfully which adds weight to your arguments.
IMNSHO the vast majority of posters on these forums are able to disagree in a civilised manner, but there is a vocal minority who seem to want to put down the very people that they apparently try to emulate. Many of this minority seem to be stuck in a rut of what cis-men described as femininity more than half a century ago, as if people cannot evolve.
I often wonder why people in that minority want to emulate something that they appear to despise.
Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.
This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
In my opinion I think it is just the fact there are these notions of what is male, and what is female. They are social constructs, and the separation of them is really not fully biolical. If one does their research it will be seen that many "feminine" traits and "masculine" traits are means to form and then maintain a hierchy which in many ways favors one sex....I'll leave it to the reader to figure out which.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
Well, a lot of the CDs on this site are stuck on femininity being about clothes and makeup. And, by that argument, of course this is not biological, animals do not wear clothes. Perhaps, did you mean historical, instead? Because, there are of course very strong biological examples of what is male and female...mostly being that most living organisms (aside from humans) have the main focus of passing on their genetic material. And, they will pass it on by whatever means possible. There are examples of insects impersonating females in order for males in the area to try to mate with them (unsuccessfully) and waste their male mojo on them, so that the impersonating male can go mate with the real female. Everything is about fitness (their reproductive success). There are also examples of animals expressing overly masculine or overly feminine traits (again nothing to do with their clothes) in order to get more mates. For example, the female chooses the male expressing the MOST masculine traits because this probably means that he got so big because he was good genetic material. In other words, he was able to defend himself and get plenty of food for himself...so any offspring by him may inherit these "thrifty" traits. Maybe it also means that he will offer more protection to her offspring. So, this is why she chooses him over the scraggly little thing next to him. These are very simplified examples and if you are really interested in this, I have a few papers that I studied as an undergrad that I can dig up and point you to. But, yes, I think male and female....masculine vs. feminine...is fairly important on a BIOLOGICAL basis.
Last edited by Shananigans; 03-31-2011 at 12:49 PM.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
Shananigans,
That is very interesting I have also read some on these Traits and seen simular on T.V. shows.. One thing that gets me, thinking with an open mind as you know many Cders are married ,some are gay and others consider themselves Bi. Me I know after questioning myself for sure I am not attracted to men in any way. So the question is, if one is not attracted to the same sex how would they know what attraction to the same sex would be.. In others words, cause I know that didn't make sense what I just wrote. I know in a female what I am attracted to or the type and in my own way emulate that .. With no desires to be a woman or live as one and by saying that, going all the way.
There is nothing in modern human nature that would have a male act this way to beniefit the society or man ./woman kind ..Now going back hundreds of years ago there were benefits .. I think our society has out grown the need for those who are true transgender .. But is it evolution that created transgenders in male and females when there was uses for them? Has our society evolved past that in most of the world to fast?
I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.
This might make a good thread on its own. Note that I am not an evolutionary biologist. I do have a biology degree that was strongly concentrated in evolution, but then I ran off to study bacteria and parasites...and, now anesthesia....I'm ADHD with my studies...
Evolution gets a little hairy when it comes to people. I'm not saying that we aren't subjected to it, but I'm just saying that we don't act like most other mammals. But, let's say for hypothesis sake that even though we act different than most animals that evolution still acts on us in the same way. Evolution by sexual selection (the type of evolution that I was describing in my earlier post) would say that transgenderedism (did I make up this word lol?) would be evolutionarily favorable (assuming that there is a genetic component) if it helped the human gains mates and successfully produce offsprings with those mates.
This automatically opens up a can of worms. By just being on this forum, it seems that this is not the case and that women do not select for men that are act or present as more feminine. Therefore, I might venture that in our hypothetical experiment that transgenderedism would eventually be weeded out of the gene pool.
In animals, very small genetic changes may develop and they continue developing until evolution plays its cruel card. So, in the example that you hypothesized that there was once a need for TG people and now they may be being "weeded out of the gene pool" due to sexual selection is a pretty hard statement to make. I think the best way to test it would be to have hard data as to the number of TG people 5000 years ago as opposed to now. Then, see if there are any TGs around 5000 years from now. (5000 is an arbitrary number...I'm just saying that evolution is a slow process). However, we can't do this A) because most people do not openly share that they are TG and B) what are we going to call TG...fetishist to TS? If you don't have a hard definition it would be hard to test. And, as we know there ARE so many TGs of varying degrees. So, I'd say we failed to demonstrate our hypothesis (that the "TG gene" is an unfavorable one being weeded out of the gene pool).
Of course, this is all bologna (my situation that I proposed and not evolution) because A) We don't even know if TG is a genetic component or not and B) Humans tend to not act like just blobs of flesh attached to genitals with the soul purpose of copulation.
...well, for the most part anyway...haha
As far as choosing attractive mates, it makes sense that you are attracted to women that you would most want to emulate. This really has nothing to do with evolution because it means you are TG. You have an ideal woman that you strive to emulate and therefore find yourself attracted to these women.
As to your observations on homosexuality...haha...that IS seen in animals and there ARE evolutionary components that select for homosexuality. Here is a more simple explanation of it, but again I have papers. The papers are more dry and boring....this article is more snappy and to the point and gives you the glossed over jist of it all. http://www.newscientist.com/article/...sexuality.html
Now, if this pertains to people or not...who knows? Humans are obviously still subject to evolution...we are a strange species in our actions, but that doesn't mean that we are immune to it. We'll see where we are in 5000 years...if we don't blow ourselves up first
The closest I can come to (fail) explain crossdressing on an evolutionary standpoint is the "sneaky male" theory that I described earlier. And, with transsexualism...the closest thing that I can throw at it as an example would be animals that could switch their sex when one gender outnumbers the other. For example, a female fish switches to a male when there are no males in the area (or vice versa). However, in order for this to stand with people, you'd have to see if there happens to be more transsexuals in areas without a regular gender distribution lol and we KNOW this is not the case. So, really, as it is right now there is no evolutionary explanation for transsexualism and crossdressing. It could be that it is neither a favorable or disfavorable trait evolutionarily. Or, perhaps it is either favorable or disfavorable and we'll figure out which in quite a few years.
However, what I was telling Pythos was that masculine and feminine trait selection IS biological, and YES we even select for these traits as humans. Studies have shown that women rank men as more appealing when they look more masculine and men rank women as more appealing when they look more feminine. Note that this has nothing to do with hair or makeup. In the studies the hair was not shown and the subjects wore no makeup. It was purely on bone structure and physical characteristics that displayed a level of femininity and masculinity.
Furthermore, we select for masculine and feminine traits without even seeing each other. We do it by smell. In my animal behavior class, we conducted an experiment where everyone wore a t-shirt for 3 days. Prior to wearing the shirt, we bathed with unscented soap. We wore no perfumes or deodrants at this time. We kept the shirt on 24/7 for three days and were only allowed to wash in water without soap. (No shampoo). At the end of the study, we placed our shirts in a Ziploc bag. Everyone was given the same size shirt and the same bag so you could no identify them. Next, the professor (who was also blind to whose shirts were whose) passed the bags around and we would sniff into the bag and rate how attracted we were to the scent on a scale of 1-10. I was interested to see where I would fall because I am bisexual. Most men chose the woman who was ovulating (yes, we had to share our menstrual cycle in the data) as the most attractive shirt. (And, females are most fertile during ovulation). Even the gay guy chose her which was lol. The shirt that was least attractive to male belonged to a girl who was on her period during the process (the least fertile). Women were predominantly attracted to the shirt that belonged to the big beefcake in the class. Physically he was just big and buff...probably full of testosterone. Coincidence?
Now, physically and psychologically I was not attracted the guy that my nose said was most attractive. Just knowing how he acts turns me off of him...but, on a blind study, my body betrayed me and biology took over. Interesting, huh? Biologically he might be the most attractive, but just by knowing him....nah...
And, on a side note, GGs posts on this thread are getting some attention...I haven't been told that my vagina lowers my IQ yet. So, maybe the OP had an impact on helping everyone to be more mindful that we are all just people here...and we all have feelings at the end of the day. Even evil reptilian feminists
Last edited by Shananigans; 03-31-2011 at 10:13 PM.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
Shanaigans ,
Thanks for the reply, and yes, perhaps another thread would be wise on the evalution subject. I thought you brought up some valids points ..
Thanks
I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.
I think a major issue is that SOME PEOPLE DON'T READ!
I've seen threads where false statements are made, such as oh, I dunno ... "my wife is jealous and she feels less feminine than me because I'm hotter than she is". Others, (including the GGs who have experience with this very situation), will post explaining why this isn't true and offer convincing arguments, and then other members come right in and echo the original false assumption!
It almost seems as if many people here read the original post, don't bother to read the development of the thread, and then just post their opinions regardless! But it can seem dismissive to the people who have taken the time to offer well constructed arguments expressing another aspect of the situation, which BTW is generally done in order to bridge the gap between a warring CD and his SO!
So ... WTF? Maybe some members are just here to spout off and they're not interested in any meaningful discussion, which kinda departs from the whole idea of having a support forum.
Last edited by ReineD; 04-01-2011 at 01:58 PM.
Reine
I think they call this, "foot in mouth disease."
It's painfully prevalent all over the internet sadly, and really makes you question humanity.
I think that just describes how people act in general though. I don't know how many times in class I have gotten mad at people who just wake up 5 minutes before they are asked to speak on the subject material and then say something that someone else said 2 seconds ago. But, they were off in their own world, thinking about what They were going to say instead of listening to the others.
However, a few replies to posts have me wondering if the poster has read beyond the subject line.
Also, I get too annoyed with the "my wife is jealous of me threads" that I just can't comment on them anymore. I tried a long time ago to relate/explain, but to no amount. In the end I'm just like, "Yep, uh huh, sure, you're so hot, you're so fine...we're all just so darned jealous. I'm just not worthy"
And, I thought that the girls that I went to high school with were b*tches....lol
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
OUCH! Guilty as charged as I have done that on multiple occasions. Sometimes I just get fascinated or worked up by the OP and directly to posting a comment without reading the following replies, and I would have to admit that only rarely am I willing to read an entire five or six pages of comments and replies before spouting off . . .
Yeah, but Kim, I was referring to the posters who perpetuate false beliefs about GGs. They don't bother to read the developed arguments about why the original post just doesn't make sense.
But, there are people like you who get it, so you don't need convincing that your wife isn't CDing when she wears pants, or that she feels her femininity is threatened because you are just so hot! (Not saying you aren't hot cos you are, but you know what I mean).
Reine
I agree and some only want everyone else to agree and if a GG does then nothing is said, but god help us if we disagree. I am just sorry that a lot of the GGs won't post in the main forum because of this.
Sandra
Administrator
I always used to rib you about your legs can't anymore. R.I.P Sexy Legs
R.I.P Rianna
Sandra, I remember a few years ago, reading a post from a CDer who was quite resentful that a GG might come in here to burst his bubble with a dose of reality, since this place (he felt) was his only outlet for fantasy about being femme. Although I agree this forum is a great outlet for closeted CDers, honestly they don't get that many spouses lurk here as well if they're trying to come to terms with their husbands' CDing. And how does a wife feel, reading all this nonsense about what she thinks and who she is.
Anyway, I don't think it's healthy for anyone to justify their CDing by making themselves so superior to GGs (or even other men for that matter, when you consider all the male bashing that happens here too). It's rather counter-productive and it doesn't help these CDers to move forward with being open and real about themselves. It keeps them stuck in a fantasy land, and I can't help but think this must have a negative impact on their relationships.
Last edited by ReineD; 04-01-2011 at 03:20 PM.
Reine
I have to agree with the latter postings the GGs on here must feel likewhen they read posts from the sort of self absorbed CDers that think they are tranny Goddesses and above anything on the planet,If I ever get that up myself (no chance of that) my missus has permission to boot me where it hurts
Sophie
We look to Scotland,for all our Ideas of Civilisation-Voltaire
========================================
A woman who loves to wear beautiful clothes is like a flower.
A man who loves to emulate these women is a special flower-a roseFacebook:Sophie Johnson
Generalisations. Judgements. Labelling.
In my view, these things render all reasoned debate stone dead. Which is sad really and, ultimately, rather boring. They get in the way of living.
Sarah
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haAlso, I get too annoyed with the "my wife is jealous of me threads" that I just can't comment on them anymore. I tried a long time ago to relate/explain, but to no amount. In the end I'm just like, "Yep, uh huh, sure, you're so hot, you're so fine...we're all just so darned jealous. I'm just not worthy"
And, I thought that the girls that I went to high school with were b*tches....lol
Best post all day. Though I would imagine that the biyatches here haven't read "Queen Bee's and Wannabe's" and that when they watch "Mean Girls" they identify with the Regina George character. And yes, when I was young, there were times I DID want to be the Queen Bee, sorry about that.
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
Yeah, but Kim, I was referring to the posters who perpetuate false beliefs about GGs. They don't bother to read the developed arguments about why the original post just doesn't make sense.
But, there are people like you who get it, so you don't need convincing that your wife isn't CDing when she wears pants, or that she feels her femininity is threatened because you are just so hot! (Not saying you aren't hot cos you are, but you know what I mean).
You know, I'm tempted to take your rationalization and run with it. After all, I've met you - I know that your smart and I know that your pretty, and like any reasonably normal guy, I'd like to stay on your good side and in your good graces, but still . . .
If I only read the posts of those that I like, admire, and agree with (like yourself) then I am doing myself and others a disservice. If your point is valid (and it is) then I owe it to those that I dont agree with to at least read and consider their posts.
Most of us on this forum come from reasonably free countries where we are allowed to express our opinions without worrying about going to prison or worse. Dont get me wrong, I'm all for calling out someone on their posts, and arguing with them and trying to convince them of the error of their ways, but if all we do is slam and ridicule people with an opinion different from our own, we run the risk of becoming like those that we least admire - the dictatorships.
Let's consider Sean's opinion. Let's tell him why and how he is mistaken and try and show him why we are right and he is wrong, but let's not simply insult and belittle him for his beliefs.
Reine - you rock. I have yet to read a single post or thread from you that I didn't like.
Sean - you rock. You had the courage to stand up for your point of view,and to do it against overwhelming opposition.
What the hell - let's admire whats worth admiring.
Enough philosophy from a tired old desert rat - I'm outta here!
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