A question to the CD's

[Pythos]

WsprsOnTheWind,

This statement, though not meant to harm, I am sorry, I found terribly offensive.

"I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD"

May I just ask....WHAT THE HELL IS A "REAL MAN" IS SUPPOSED TO SMELL LIKE?"

To my understanding we humans natural smell of BO, and other unpleasantness, unless we are cleaned up. Now I know there are women that love the sweaty smelling male, as there are men that also like that smell. In limited amounts I agree.

However, the fragrances we add to our bodies are not in any way natural. So the smell you are receiving from your "real man" is only a manufactured scent most likely made by a huge corporation.

I fail to understand why men are supposed to smell musky, and those males that choose a scent that is other than do not smell like a "real man". Aren't women attracted to pleasant even fruity smells? How about candy?

I myself wear no fragrances, but am thinking of acquiring a scent that is not too strong and of a grape scent...or I may get the cologne that the GG thought smelled really good....though it was marketed by a country western singer.

I do have to say though. We get caught up in these false definitions that are not historically accurate (my understanding is Greek men wore spices not too different from the women).

Now as far as the crossdressing is concerned. Intend to be open with my SO about mine, but mine is slowly diminishing to just being androgynous male, or fem. Not so much full on cding. It's fun for sure. But I would much rather have my own styles, and use items from both sides of the Gender aisle.

I have seen this too often about an SO being the sort that accepts, but not in her presence.

I think this kind of arrangement is absolutely lousy.

All it does it keep things hidden, it also does not allow the whole person to be known. And oh Great Maker, what might get known? That he has a "feminine side". Oh no, run for the hills!!! We can't have that now can we?

Seriously, my opinion is that the younger generation will hopefully kill these stupid and senseless notions.

We really need to stop treating what we do, whether full on cding or just trying to integrate "feminine" styles into our wardrobes, as if it is some kind of crime or disease.

*also, I am using the term "real man" not because of the OP, though what the quote says kinda implies the term. I used the term because it is something I do indeed hear, and frankly I am sick of it. There are no "real men" there are those that conform to a stereotype that is both inaccurate and limiting. IMOHO.*

[Rianna Humble]

WsprsOnTheWind,

This statement, though not meant to harm, I am sorry, I found terribly offensive.

"I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD"

Pythos, if you have read the whole thread, you will know exactly what Wsprs meant since she has spelled it out. It may offend you that a woman likes a man who doesn't wear perfume every single time that they go out, but this was just one of the things that she had been prepared to give up out of love for the cross-dresser who was using her.

I have seen this too often about an SO being the sort that accepts, but not in her presence.

WTH did you get that from the fact that Wsprs had been prepared to let the guy dress whenever he wanted around her, had been willing to go out with him in public, had made several changes to her own preferences to accomodate him but didn't feel it was fair of him to blame her when he chose to ditch the time he had promised to spend with her in favour of spending time with his ex-wife and family. What part of that makes you say that Wsprs woud "accept but not in her presence"?

By all means make generic points, but please don't throw them out as if they apply to this thread.

As for your assertion that speaking of someone smelling masculine implies "a real man", perhaps you should revise your biology. Part of the biological side of the mating ritual involves the fact that male and female of almost any species smell different to each other.

[bridgetta]

my girl knows. but i dont want/need to do it with her... i do it alone.. and i know. I i can see how surface illusion is it. thats what makes it fun.. also.... i kind of relax a little.. it takes me away ..
. id rather keep it my own fun experiment without it affecting pschology... but it would be nice to be very casual about it and have that understood..

[Pythos]

Rianna,

You did read my closing statement in astericks right? Cause I did say I was necessarially saying wispers was fully implying this. As far as men and women smelling differently, Actually those different smells are subconsious and are not truly smells in the normal scent. I think the term is pheremone. Women have different than men yes, but the detected smells are very much alike. This I learned in a biology class, the same class I learned that much of the creeerap that we put up with is social constructs. The male and female are different, but not as much as has been pushed onto us.

My second point was also not directed at wspers, it was directed to those SO that accept but only in secrecy. Do you think Rianna, that that stance really helps anyone?

Wsprs SO, sounded very selfish, and frankly put a black eye onto us CDs or those that vary from the social norm. He was not a good example. But we must avoid the broad brush approach of blaming. I was addressing the common thinking, and much of it I have seen here.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Perhaps you need a guidebook for sorting them out BEFORE you get so involved.Do you want to date another dresser? Is that why you are here? Are you accepting? I don't see it that way. So,why would you be here? Please tell.

I am here b/c I have CD friends here and I am accepting. Do I want to date another CD-NO but then I'm not anxious to get serious with anyone ,CD or not, right now. However, I am not opposed to seeing someone casually while remaining emotionally detached. I'll go through the motions all day long but it will be very superficial from now on. I just like to chat with others and find out their experiences. I like learning about things that you don't ordinarily hear about. I would also like to believe that my experience was unique and there is good out there. It has also helped me to get feedback from others about the situation. So, to learn and to grow as an individual is usually my motive for most everything I do.

Pythos,

As Rianna, pointed out, I did clarify that I probably used the wrong choice of words when I said "real man." What I should have said was that I missed the smell of male cologne...had nothing to do with BO, although there is nothing that smells better than clean skin, IMO.

Also, I never said I was "accepting but NOT in my presence." He was welcome too and did dress around me, we went out to clubs with him dressed, etc. My comfort level was not to the degree of going to the mall with him dressed or him dressed working in my yard where my neighbors children could see him. My point being, don't ask of me what you protect your family and children from.

If that is offensive to you then that is what it is. I realize your comments weren't meant toward me personally nor were they take so. I cannot apologize for who/how I am and I should have just as much acceptance for my limits as the acceptance that he expected, and GOT, from me. I feel that for the things I was willing to do and participate in that the things I wasn't should have been respected. Instead it was like the two year old that couldn't have ALL the toys, while I had none, who quits and goes home b/c he didn't get his way. I told him from the beginning that I wasn't going to be able to live up to the role he wanted to change me into. Unlike him, who lied and kept saying no, no, as long as I am loved and accepted compromises can be made. I never misreprestend myself. All I promised to do was try and I was trying to the end. I do believe that if he hadn't set the standards so high and pressured me so hard that I would have progressed and gotten more comfortable with it even quicker.

Now that it's said and done I am thankful that I don't have to deal with it. The problems of the ex and mother were enough to break any relationship not to mention all the other added stress and pressure he applied. I just don't want to be chained to what would have been a life of misery. I do believe the wise counselor I talked too afterwards who said "you dodged a bullet" was exactly right.

Again, good luck to him in finding someone who gives him EVERYTHING he's wanting. To my knowledge no human on earth has ever found that level of perfection in a partner. However, he does live in a delusional world so maybe somewhere in his idealistic fantasy place he can find that. I would love to live in a world like that too but DeNial.....ain't just a river in Egypt!

[TGMarla]

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

This is exactly how it is with me and my wife. She knows I do this, knows I won't or perhaps can't stop, and she accepts that I do it. She does not understand it, and does not wish for any participation in it. I'm grateful to have her in my life. I love her very much, and expect to be with her until the end of our days. Just having her in my life, knowing that I crossdress, and having her acceptance, if not her support, means a lot to me. I'm content with it.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Just to clarify, I didn't find ALL aspects of it unpleasant. There were parts of it that I actually enjoyed. I am sure that in time most of it would have became second nature and I would have been fine with it. Now, we will never know but hey another bus leaves in 20 minutes.

Marla,

That's great that you both are open about it and accept the other's boundaries and are still able to have a great relationship in spite of the differences. What more could any RATONAL person ask for in any relationship whether cd'ing is involved or not.

My biggest regret is that I didn't say what I was thinking the moment he said "I don't like dogs in the house." I wish I'd said and I don't like you in my house, get out! Next time I will listen to my inner voice. You don't have to like or love my dogs but you must accept they are as much a part of my life as cd'ing is to yours. They are non-negotiable.

[msniki48]

It's wonderful to see you guys post that you would never expect your gg/wife to do anything she wasn't comfortable with. I was made to feel worthless and ashamed b/c I refused to go out in public, in the town I live in b/c I was embarassed and didn't want to run into people I know. Not only that, but with the nature of work that I do, it might not be a good thing to do that close to home for me. Of course when I explained that I was just a vile POS, yet his defense was that he couldn't do that near his home b/c someone he knows or is related to might see him. His just desserts will come when EVERYBODY finds out about him, IMO.

.

Whsprs, I feel for you my dear, in that you were made to feel badly. My wife has some of the same concerns about being out near our home. We both work in the public eye, so I believe we are in tune on that choice of not being local. when i met my current wife I told her imediately... ok ok, on our 2nd date. She is very supportive but she does not feel the desire to have every waking moment with me as niki, and i try to respect that as we do so much together. I do have a concern about doing things without her, if she gave me permission to do so as niki.... i think i would tend to limit myself as i don't want her sitting at home while i'm out enjoying my niki time with friends.

thank you for making us think....it is a little complicated isn't it

hugs

msniki48

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Niki,

It's WAY complicated. I was perfectly willing to go to other towns and go out with him dressed. Sadly, as I mentioned about the delusional state, we both were having such financial problems that the things he was demanding wouldn't have been possible her or elsewhere at the time. Kinda sad isn't it? I'd rather spend time debating things that are actual issues instead of arguing about things we couldn't do anyway. Thank God, it's not my problem to deal with any more.

When I finally told my family about it my aunt said the most profound thing to me that nearly made my jaw drop. She said "I'm proud of you, I'd never have thought you would have done it (dated a CD). I couldn't have done it but I'm proud that you were open minded enough to try." Now, my mom wasn't quite as understanding.

[Marissa]

**Quote modified**

My second point was also not directed at wspers, it was directed to those SO that accept but only in secrecy. Do you think Rianna, that that stance really helps anyone?

Wsprs, just wanted to repost part of Pythos remarks about not directing the "non-acceptance" at you.

As I said before, you are going to be a rare entity to have gone through the ordeal with such a person and still remain a part of our culture in supporting and attempting to learn from it all. Since not any or many replies from GG's experiences, most would have just walked away from it and said 'never again'.. kinda like marriage.. oh wait, I did it twice..dang..

I'm still have a sense of wonder on how much both our relationships sound pretty much the same..except mine wasn't about the dressing.. it was all the other issues that you state..

[sandra-leigh]

Are you so caught up in your own agenda of dressing at any cost that you would shut someone that loved you out of your life if their comfort level was not to the degree of participation that you would like, or would you just be glad that you had someone who loved and accepted you and could accept any level of participation she would/could engage in?

You are trying to rationalize what happened in a relationship with a narcist. You will never be able to do that, as narcists do not act rationally.

In the meantime, you are projecting the behaviour of the narcist upon large numbers of other people, and you are hurting some of them badly with the way you are going about it.

Perhaps some people here have a "crossdressing agenda", but the large majority of the postings I read are from people who are trying to get through life as best they can.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Really? Whom have I hurt? The only person I've hurt is ME for getting involved with him.


I just went back and re-read the criteria for narcissism in the DSM IV and he most definately is a narcissist. One must meet 5 of 9 criteria to have a dx of narcissistic personality disorder and he meets all 9. I am not exaggerating either. Personality does not change therefore, there is no hope of him ever feeling anything for anyone outside of what he can use them for to his advantage. So his actions were only that which is typical of his ilk.

I would have caught this months ago if I hadn't been so caught up in so many other personal issues going on in my life over the last few months. Another reason is b/c by law one cannot diagnose anyone they are related to or personally involved with so I didn't think about it b/c of those terms too.

[Rianna Humble]

Rianna,

You did read my closing statement in astericks right? Cause I did say I was necessarially saying wispers was fully implying this.

Precisely, you did say that what Wsprs wrote implied the spin that you chose to put on her words.

My second point was also not directed at wspers, it was directed to those SO that accept but only in secrecy. Do you think Rianna, that that stance really helps anyone?

Your selective resposnes show that you are unwilling to acknowledge that I agreed you have the right to make general points but asked you politely to make it clear when you are doing so. The fact that you chose not to clarify in the previous post left your words appearing to accuse the original poster.

[Amanda22]

I've been thinking about your question since you posted it. I'm about to describe the relationship I have with my wife. I consider it to be as close to perfect as possible for two people. If two people truly love each other, then each is willing to give the other what they need to be happy and content. It's like a paradox. If my wife presented me with a boundary regarding my dressing, I wouldn't want to cross that boundary because I'd be knowingly hurting her. Likewise, she has told me many times she really does want me to dress for the simple reason that it fulfills a deep need in me. She has said a few times that crossdressing isn't at the top of any wife's list of qualities to look for, yet she absolutely insists I dress very regularly!

I've read on this forum how some members wouldn't want their GG to dress as a male. I'm not referring to silly threads about women "crossdressing" simply because they wear pants. I mean being in a relationship with a GG who wanted to seriously emulate a man. If my wife wanted to do that, I would absolutely celebrate it! If she wanted to wear a clown nose everywhere we go, I'd dare anyone to stare or point. They'd have to deal with me, then. Please, before anyone infers that I'm equating clown noses with FtM crossdressers, I'm not. I'm just saying whatever my wife wants to do, she has my full support, and she knows it.

This is just my opinion only, but having had this type of relationship, nothing less would do. I hope I've made some sense and helped you.

[Bootsiegalore]

You know there comes a lot of guilt as well for those of us who are born this way. Lately with the economy and other factors the way I look at it is you need to either live your life or curl up and die. I am the way I am and I can not change it. Do you tell a gay person he can not be gay anymore? To live with constraints is like having a leash or a muzzle. I would rather be dead. Just my $0.02

Rachel

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I've been thinking about your question since you posted it. I'm about to describe the relationship I have with my wife. I consider it to be as close to perfect as possible for two people. If two people truly love each other, then each is willing to give the other what they need to be happy and content. It's like a paradox. If my wife presented me with a boundary regarding my dressing, I wouldn't want to cross that boundary because I'd be knowingly hurting her. Likewise, she has told me many times she really does want me to dress for the simple reason that it fulfills a deep need in me. She has said a few times that crossdressing isn't at the top of any wife's list of qualities to look for, yet she absolutely insists I dress very regularly!.

Amanda,

Great to see you. I was down your way a couple weeks ago. Took my grandson to the Barney concert down there. He loves Barney. Go figure! I would love to spend more time down there just walking around looking at the buildings. I love architecture and every time I come through there I always like it. I love the sculptures on the streets. It seems like a quaint town in spite of its size.

Are you getting this ugly weather down there too?

I think your post, especially the first paragraph, paints a picture of a beautiful relationship. I wanted him to get to do it often too and that is why I was totally accepting of any time he wanted to do it when we were together at home or going to a club where here could dress, I was great with it-even to the point of sacrificing things I wanted to do b/c I wanted him to have the opportunity to dress WITH me so I would do things I enjoyed alone or just not do them. THEN, he tells me that I'm too much of a homebody and he was too social for him to accept me. Pffftttt-he never went out and did anything interesting anyway. The last thing I want to do is become a selfish person (and he would tell you that I am) but I am totally burned out on giving right now.

I think his biggest issue is he wanted someone who was a complete dom. While, I do have a strong personality and sense of security in who I am, I am not into being a dom the way he wanted. I like men who are assertive not ones who are submissive. I had to be the man and woman and shoulder the whole load in my marriage and that type relationship turns me off now. If I really would have told him what to do and where to go he would have 3rd degree burns by now I'm sure. lol

Bootsie,

I'm not sure what your point is other that I think you are trying to say you're going to do what you want to do and to hell with anyone who disapproves. Sistah, you do what makes you happy. No one here has asked anyone to change.

[t-girlxsophie]

A lot of people see Compromise as surrendering up great parts of yourself up to your partner.I see it as showing your loved ones that their opinions do matter.My Wife doesn't put any great demands on me,bar liking to see her man once or twice a week for more than an hour or so,which is fair enough,I do that for her because I love her she may be understanding and fully supportive but I try not to take that for granted,therefore our relationship flourishes.
If you become selfish and take liberties with them or move the goalposts without even a discussion,you cant be at all surprised to find they don't look at the relationship to be equal.and may want to move on IMO of course

Sophie

[Amanda22]

Yes, Chattanooga is definitely quaint! I moved here after 27 years in ATL, so it's kinda small to me. But that has it's advantages. Those storms were violent last night! I was listening for hail or the sound of a locomotive most of the night.

I'm 100%+ convinced that you were willing to at least tolerate whatever your ex needed to be happy. That's just so wonderful and how I wish everyone was like you. You're a beautiful person. Coming to this forum and conversing so respectfully shows your tolerance, understanding, and honesty. I applaud you!

I'll take the liberty of giving you my opinion about your ex-relationship... it was a bad match. Oh, and you met him halfway or farther. If it wasn't about D/s or crossdressing aspects, it would have been something else. I think it always comes back to mutual respect and GIVING. Sounds like you did most/all of the giving. I had a previous 16-year marriage in which I did the giving and I know the burnout and emptiness that results. It erodes your self-esteem, too, to where you question your own right to breathe the air. Talk about getting used.

Oh, and thanks for the humour! Keep posting on this forum, if you want, because you have such a fresh and honest perspective.

- Mandy

[Amanda22]

A lot of people see Compromise as surrendering up great parts of yourself up to your partner.I see it as showing your loved ones that their opinions do matter.My Wife doesn't put any great demands on me,bar liking to see her man once or twice a week for more than an hour or so,which is fair enough,I do that for her because I love her she may be understanding and fully supportive but I try not to take that for granted,therefore our relationship flourishes.
If you become selfish and take liberties with them or move the goalposts without even a discussion,you cant be at all surprised to find they don't look at the relationship to be equal.and may want to move on IMO of course

Sophie

Sophie, your post needs to be "stickied" somewhere. You said it all. If all of us did what you describe, there'd be so much more happiness amongst the member of this forum! Simple, isn't it?

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Amanda,

I lived in ATL for awhile. Much to big for this small town country girl. Give me cows, horses, rolling hills and barn yards any day. I love visiting big cities but I love coming home to a small town. Maybe that's the reason my fav. song of John Mellencamp's is Small Town. Drove to ATL to see him in concert. Think that was the last time I was down there.

On topic, yes he was chiseling away at my self respect and self esteem but I've worked too hard and too long to become who I am and no one will ever take that from me again. He almost succeeded but not quite. I've got more fight in me than to go out w/o a fight.

[Cheryl T]

My spouse is very very supportive. When we decided to venture out we made the agreement that she would go with me where ever I went. I love it!! Nothing makes me feel more confident than knowing she is at my side even though we don't display to the world that we are together. The thing I made clear to her is that it was most important to me that I look the absolute best I could as I would never want her to be embarassed to be out with me.

If she did not support but allowed me to go on my own I would go out. I would be unhappy that she was not sharing in my life, but this is a part of me that needs expression.

[BRANDYJ]

I want to add to what wsprs was trying to say about the men's cologne that she missed...one of the simple things she gave up and at the time did not even know she missed it since the jerk she was conned into falling for always wore femine perfume instead of men's cologne around her. So she realizd it when she dated a guy that was wearing men's cologne and then... and only then did she realize she missed it. Can't say I blame her. This simple statement from her was taken way off base and off topic about the difference of men's and women's scents including natural scents. I am not offended at all by it at all. I must have missed where wsprs used the term "REAL MAN" I can't find that in any of her posts. But I know she did not mean to offend anyone. Personally, the last time I looked, I am a real man and am proud and happy about that. Secondly, I have yet to ever see a definition of exactly what a real woman or real man is anyway. To me it's what you perceive yourself or someone else to be. Petty to be upset of offended by a silly term.
Wsprs is here among us. That alone after what she ha been through is acceptance of each and everyone of you that are members of this site. She is non judging and aware of the differences in all of us. Someone asked why she is still here if she is no longer involved with a CDer. I liked her response and am proud to know her and call her a friend. I met her almost at the beginning of the con this jerk pulled on her. As gently as I could, I tried to tell her this guy just ain't right in the head and that she was being used for his own kinky pleasures with little to no regard as to what wsprs wanted or needed.
I told her just last night that it's a wonder that she has not given up on all men, let alone men who crossdress. She is smart enough to know that what happened to her could have happened with a non-Cd'ing guy just as easily. As she has already said, she is not dating or looking at this time. But any of us that have been through a heartbreak know that time heals all wounds and there will be a day another man will come along and realize the beauty of this woman's soul and treat her like the beautiful person she is. I just want to say that we are all lucky to have her here among us.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Brandi,

Thanks.

Truthfully, I have pretty much given up on all men but as I told you, women are NOT an option. lol

I'm also here b/c I have fun here and I've found it to be a nice place to hang out.

[Rogina B]

Well then,just admit that you are curious of the T world...sort of like an admirer..And you have come here to get pleasure out of studying us...Well,welcome and enjoy..you aren't the first and certainly not the last!

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Nope, not here to study anyone. That takes too much time and energy. I'm just here to post and chat. Thanks for the welcome.