Kicking at a dead horse

[Pythos]

I am honestly surprised how this statement seems to get applied to what for all intents and purposes is a very viable argument.

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

I don't understand this. Is this thought prevalent because too many have given up?

Now, I am not talking about the argument that Full fem looking cds being blocked but women wearing pants are not being a moot argument, cause as sad as it it, it is in fact a dead argument. Women do not try to emulate men (though often times they do) when they wear pants.

But as I have stated, as far as I am concerned I am doing full on CDing when I put on breast forms, and tuck. Otherwise I am going either male or androgynous (and androgyny is a whole other can of worms...yet another thing women can do with little problems but a male...eh, not so much)

I have presented some male in skirts look here that are in no way tying to be anything BUT male. Turkey Jive on Rye does likewise.

The argument that it is not fair that women can wear pants but men cannot wear skirts because a very valid argument when taken in the context of men wearing skirts as men as demonstrated by the referred to pics.

I also really really really dislike the idea that men should be limited to kilts. NO WAY. Why is that in anyway fair when women can wear 100s of styles of pants, ranging from super spandex, to ultra baggy denim?

[RenneB]

I'm thinkin' it's just a culture thing. Ya know there are some religions here in the US that require all women and girls to wear dresses. We have a family just down the street. With all the neighborhood kids wearing jeans this group stands out a bit but they appear normal and play with the other kids just fine.

I'm thinkin' in time....say a hundred years or so.... it will be a good time to be a CD out in public as something has got to change.

Renne.....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There is such an obvious difference between what most people think of cd'ing vs. men that would want to wear skirts "just because" that i believe it's you that is kicking the dead horse..

if you are truly just a guy that likes skirts as fashion, then wear them..outside of traditional crossdressing, very few guys want to wear skirts...i'm not sure what you are going on about.. do you think crossdressers somehow don't support men that just want to wear skirts?..

btw...my best friend doesnt tuck, doesnt wear breast forms but does completely dress and tries to blend in as a female..

[Pythos]

Kaitlyn, you missed the point of my post entirely.

Did you not see I was not refering to the full on cding?

Did you not see how at least to me, men CANNOT openly wear skirts as men and not face ridicule, laughter and a trip to the house of pain.

Recall, this is one of my posts, and reading it thoroughly may be required do to my horrible grammar.

[Sue101]

I doubt you will ever get a reasoned discussion on this because the issue has generated two opposing camps and a habit of putting fingers in ears and just repeating the prescribed mantra over and over again. I also have pointed out that when you compare like with like and use crossdressers who are not emulating women then the parrallel is undeniable which probably explains why nobody ever responds to the point.

In many ways it is a great example of the cold war that exists between those who want all the issues examined with complete honesty even if it makes some folks uncomfortable and those who wish to uphold conventions about normality Or maybe some people just are not interested in thinking too deeply and side with the conventional wisdom.

I actually think this is a very important issue to discuss because it places crossdressing into a social context rather than the current view that crossdressing is a separate deviant behavior that is not shared by others.

[JohnH]

Pythos,

Thanks for expressing my thoughts about how society disapproves of men wearing skirts or dresses AS men. I guess it must be this fragile "masculine anxiety" of how a man must be "manly"

In the past of course women who wore pants were really looked down on, even more than what I encounter when I wear a denim skirt with otherwise masculine clothing. At least I don't risk arrest the same way as women risked when they wore pants in the 1800's.

John

[Emma England]

It is a dead horse, as there is no problem with men wearing skirts.

I have done so often in summer when the weather is warm.

Look at my signature below - it is appropriate!

The only problem is in men's own heads.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kaitlyn, you missed the point of my post entirely.

Did you not see I was not refering to the full on cding?

Did you not see how at least to me, men CANNOT openly wear skirts as men and not face ridicule, laughter and a trip to the house of pain.

Recall, this is one of my posts, and reading it thoroughly may be required do to my horrible grammar.

i understand what you are saying..sorry..

[Billie Jean]

If women want to wear pants and men dresses, I say let them. I know that everybody who has seen me in a dress is not OK with it but nobody has ever given me a hard time. I just get some looks and laughs both of which I don't let bother me. If more men wore dresses in public it would soon be something people would pay less attention to. Billie Jean

[Jason+]

There is such an obvious difference between what most people think of cd'ing vs. men that would want to wear skirts "just because" that i believe it's you that is kicking the dead horse..

if you are truly just a guy that likes skirts as fashion, then wear them..outside of traditional crossdressing, very few guys want to wear skirts...i'm not sure what you are going on about.. do you think crossdressers somehow don't support men that just want to wear skirts?..

btw...my best friend doesnt tuck, doesnt wear breast forms but does completely dress and tries to blend in as a female..

Kaitlyn,

Your best friend blending as a female makes her not part of the group this thread is about. I disagree with you on the number of men who would want to wear skirts or dresses as men. A lot that would want to are not willing to suffer the consequences of it. They may find it easier to pass/blend/hide. Until they are willing to fight like women have already done to assert their rights things will not change.

Why bother trying to flog this horse then. We are not the community who "frown upon men wearing skirts". Why try preach the rights and wrongs here, the only way to get your message to those who "ridicule" this lawful act, are those in the real world. Stop berating the TG community and get out and show that men can wear skirts.

Nigella,

Speaking as a man who does wear skirts and dresses out in public as a man the most virulent opposition to men wearing skirts as men has not come from John Q. Public. They have provided stares and giggles and the occasional sarcastic comment but they do not hold a candle to the vocal and thankfully small minority of the TG community that I have experienced myself and watched as they tried to shred a new member who feels like I do as well as members who are long standing and more successful at pulling off the skirt as men look.

[TxKimberly]

Hmm . . . .

OK, first of all I'd have to agree that it IS unfair that women can wear slacks and men cant wear skirts. Now having agreed with that point, there is more to be considered.

First and foremost, women went out on a limb and fought for that right. They fought for the right to be treated fairly and they fought for the right to dress as they pleased. When we are willing to stand up en-mass and do the same thing, THEN men will be able to wear skirts when they want to. When we are willing to accept the harassment and the ridicule the same way that women were treated when THEY started wearing pants . . .

The reason everyone considers this to be beating a dead horse is because unlike your post, most that raise the topic try and equate women wearing slacks to cross dressing and it clearly is not the same thing. While they might have back when women first started wearing slacks, no reasonable individual today can claim that a woman wearing slacks is cross dressing. Today, slacks are considered 100% appropriate for women - they are NOT wearing the clothing of the other gender.
In contrast, a man wearing a skirt or dress IS cross dressing by todays standards. We are clearly wearing garments intended for and only appropriate for, the opposite gender.
You can not put the two into the same box - it just doesn't work.

Personally I wouldn't want to see it common place dresses and skirts to be common attire for males. Frankly I enjoy them in part because they are intended for women. If we lived in a time where it was completely normal attire for men, it would be such a bummer!

[Cynthia Anne]

Phythos You have a good argument here! Yes I agree with you! We country girls have been burying our dead horses for hundreds of years! The same way this argument should of been, hundreds of years ago!

[prettytoes]

I am one of those men that really enjoys wearing skirts. I think they are very comfortable, much cooler than shorts on hot days, and they just make me feel good to wear one. I do not try to come off as female, I have a mustache, tattoos, and a muscular, hairy chest. I generally do not use make-up (maybe on Halloween), wigs, or breast forms. I simply enjoy feminine clothing...satin panties and nighties, sport bras, skirts, sundresses, and yoga shorts for working out. I have to agree that it is not fair, but it is a "standard" as viewed by the general population. I do not go out in a skirt, as much as I would like to, because of the fear of ridicule, stares, laughing, and the like. I feel much more at home and comfortable in a short denim mini skirt, but cannot wear one all the time due to these silly "rules" imposed by society. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

[NathalieX66]

Kilts notwithstanding?
From time to time, I see weddings where the groom is wearing a kilt.

No, I don't believe it's a beating a dead horse issue for a guy to simply wear a dress without going full-on en femme. It is a cultural thing, nothing more.

[2SpeedTranny]

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

I don't see myself as being "blocked" from it.

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I wear skirts as a guy, even to work. It's a matter of practicality -- less swamp crotch in the heat. No one stops me, and to date, not one single human being has told me I can't. Not that I would care if they did, mind you. I have a few smartass replies rolling around in my head for just such an occasion, and a little part of me is disappointed that I've never had to use them.

Hmmm... well, okay, my sister-in-law thinks I'm weird. But she lives 1,500 miles away and belongs to a cult, so the feeling is mutual. Big deal.

Anyway, Pythos, you live in the most gay-friendly, liberal, leftist, bleeding-heart communist city on the planet. Your take on the matter is surprising, to say the least. The only one holding you back is you, man!

[JohnH]

I don't see myself as being "blocked" from it.

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I wear skirts as a guy, even to work. It's a matter of practicality -- less swamp crotch in the heat. No one stops me, and to date, not one single human being has told me I can't. Not that I would care if they did, mind you. I have a few smartass replies rolling around in my head for just such an occasion, and a little part of me is disappointed that I've never had to use them.

Hmmm... well, okay, my sister-in-law thinks I'm weird. But she lives 1,500 miles away and belongs to a cult, so the feeling is mutual. Big deal.

Anyway, Pythos, you live in the most gay-friendly, liberal, leftist, bleeding-heart communist city on the planet. Your take on the matter is surprising, to say the least. The only one holding you back is you, man!

Powerglide, I concur.

Today I went to a barbershop to get a haircut that could pass for a woman. I wore a denim skirt and women's sandals, and nobody cared what I had on. I was talking to a guy about cars, and he was a macho looking man with all kinds of tattoes and he was having his hair cut short. Yesterday I went to pick up my car from a auto repair shop while wearing a different denim skirt. Both days I went to Walmart afterwards. I have also worn skirts to community chorus rehearsals, along with makeup, a blouse-like Hawaiian shirt, and women's sandals, where I sing second bass.

I am in the Dallas area - almost like the buckle of the Bible Belt, and there are only a few people that give me a hard time for wearing skirts and dresses.

So I back off of my griping about how men cannot wear skirts and dresses.

John

[Pythos]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

[2SpeedTranny]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

Encouraging?

C'mon, dude.

San Francisco. Anything goes. You live there; I don't. Why are you jealous of me?

I don't know why, for certain, you reference the FAA. To the best of my knowledge, if you're aiming to be a pilot, they're looking only at your logbook. There's no "Transvestite Single Engine" endorsement. No "Wears Fake Boobs, Floatplane" signoff. If you got the skills, you got the skills. Period. Mechanic? An A&P is an A&P. I know this gig... my brother is one, and he's on the new Boeing 787 project.

Now then. There's a difference between what you do on weekends, and what you do during the week. I might not get my ass kicked, or have to kick ass, if I showed up to my workaday thing in the manner I dress on weekends. But it would be awkward.

Final analysis... I guess I'm not sure what you're really after here.

So... what?

[Taylor186]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

And one more,

There is a forty-something, plain-looking, slightly over-weight man who attends my church dressed as a male from the waist up--man's shirt, man's watch, no ear rings or makeup or bra or other jewelry, traditional male haircut--and from the waist down is dressed as a female--black flowing ankle length skirt, woman's black flats and hosiery. His appearance is male in every way--other than his skirt, shoes and hose. The prototypical "man-in-a-dress."

This is in a small Midwest community in a red State and a bright red County.

He, as near as I can tell, is fully accepted by the other members, and during the post sermon social time is always involved in lively conversation with someone or some group.

So what I've seen tends to agree with what others have said above. If your goal is to present as a man with greater fashion freedom, then the only road block is yourself.

[AllieSF]

Pythos, I didn't use those exact words, but I did say that probably very few men (a small minority) want to wear skirts or dresses in male mode. I say that because I truly believe that when there are enough people wanting to do something out of the mainstream, some individuals will start doing that singularly and enough will be doing that by themselves that it will eventually become an obvious movement regardless what are the fashion styles and norms at that moment. I have seen over the years those rare moments when through the fashion world men will be shown wearing skirts. However, that has never caught on, not even to the mass of trend setters who do not care what others think. Why?

I am a late starter as a MtF CD and never had the desire to wear a skirt in private nor in public, and have never met anyone then and even up to now that wanted to wear a skirt in male mode, except for those I have seen on this site. And looking at the number here who like to wear a skirt in male mode, that is still a very small minority of the MtF CD members. So, as many have stated, including me, to each their own. You like goth, go for it. I like femme, I go for that. Someone likes frilly femme or baby doll look, go for it. What looks silly to you, may look fabulous to someone else. What looks right for you, may look wrong for someone else.

I also believe that having the separation of genders and sexes to be a natural, good and functioning system. By having two genders and all that goes with them, we get a balance which also can help to support a very large spectrum between both extremes, which adds to life's diversity and beauty, and strength. The differences compliment each other and on the big scale help make everything work. I definitely do not want to see the joining of the genders and sexes into one.

I also like the blurred lines where whoever wants to can cross over temporarily or permanently to the other side or somewhere in between. I agree that it is not totally accepted by society in general, but must reiterate that in my own personal experience, I have not encountered negative reaction to me being out there as Allie. I think that the more people that can overcome their own personal fears and can get out there in the real world will prove that my experience is not the exception, but rather the norm. Some might not like it that I and others like me are out there, but the vast majority do and will tolerate our right to be there.

[sissystephanie]

My late wife always did my makeup and fixed my wig when I went out as Stephanie, and I was completely passable.I have never been good at either makeup or fixing my wig, but with her help I did not need to! Then 6 years ago she died! How was I to go out as Stephanie? Well, I have been doing it. as a male Stephanie!! I dress totally enfemme, from skin out, but wear no wig or makeup. In plain english, I am a guy in a skirt or dress. I go everywhere dressed like that, and in the past almost 6 years have not had one single negative comment!! I have had numerous compliments on my feminine outfits, from both men and women!! Oh yes, I wear all kinds of skirts or dresses. But I wear clothes that are similar to what other ladies are wearing, not something like a drag queen would wear!! As long as you are decently clad, most people don't care what you have on.

This may get me in trouble, but I will say it anyway! Most of the problems with men wearing skirts is not with the general public!! It is with the men who are afraid to go out in public wearing a skirt!! if you wear it like you belong in it, very few people will say or do anything!! Those of us who do it all the time know that is a fact!!

[Billie Jean]

Amen Stephanie. I too go as a man wearing womens clothes that are not like something a drag queen would wear and I have never had anyone say something negative. I have had quite a few compliments on how well I co-ordinated my outfits. Billie Jean

[Babeba]

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I really liked this post!

Besides, who gets to decide what 'conventional' is, anyway? It's really only something changed by action.