Just won the ladies' champion title in bowling

[Karren H]

Since Renee Richards played Pro Women's Tennis I thought it was not fair.... Still don't.

[GaleWarning]

Oh my god, so much political correctness! Really sucks the fun out of dressing.

Honestly is NOT politically correct. Cheating (or at least, bending the rules to suit one's own ends) is.

Jennifer has not been back to tell us of any remorse or payback or pay forward, so one concludes (reluctantly) that "he" has no intention of doing so.

No matter .... kharma, or whatever one prefers to call it, will eventually happen.

[charlene#2]

pins and bowling balls,every one has the same chance,let the pins fall where they may.i had a 212 average and still have been beaten by females,christ its not the end of the world,let it go

[incognito]

Honestly is NOT politically correct. Cheating (or at least, bending the rules to suit one's own ends) is.

Jennifer has not been back to tell us of any remorse or payback or pay forward, so one concludes (reluctantly) that "he" has no intention of doing so.

No matter .... kharma, or whatever one prefers to call it, will eventually happen.

It was not intentional and if you get attacked a lot in a topic. You started with happiness the disappointment in your fellow friends would get pulverised. So if the person has no intention of replying or might even feel bad for coming here again, you should see the door is locked. And further discussing won't open any.

[jenniferoonus]

It was not intentional and if you get attacked a lot in a topic. You started with happiness the disappointment in your fellow friends would get pulverised. So if the person has no intention of replying or might even feel bad for coming here again, you should see the door is locked. And further discussing won't open any.

Just to close this thread, First, I did not cash the check for my winning; Second, I will not compete any sporting events as Jennifer in the future, however, I will compete in ladies' dance competitions where GG have advantages over me. I am a good dancer too. Just to reiterate, my objective is not to win, I just want to be in the spot light as Jennifer, I want as many people as possible to see me as a female. I might open a new thread - 'Just won a ladies's dance competition' if I win (:

[ReineD]

Jennifer, if you like to be in the spotlight so much, why don't you post a pic of yourself in the Gallery?

By now, you've got an entire forum of CDers who are dying to know your secrets for passing so well. I can't imagine you'd not want to post a pic for fear of being "found out", since you are already very much out.

If you don't want to post a pic, do share why.

[Lorileah]

and no matter what you compete in you should let everyone know you are not a woman, even if you think you pass well enough to not tell. (wondering why you think women have an advantage in dance also). It isn't that you win, it is the deception in the process.

[jenniferoonus]

and no matter what you compete in you should let everyone know you are not a woman, even if you think you pass well enough to not tell. (wondering why you think women have an advantage in dance also). It isn't that you win, it is the deception in the process.

I cannot tell people that I am not a woman because I have already lived my life as a woman when I am Jennifer. My feeling is so strong that if one day someone find out that I am not a woman when I am Jennifer, Jennifer will just disappear completely in this world, whatever that means...

Jennifer, if you like to be in the spotlight so much, why don't you post a pic of yourself in the Gallery?

By now, you've got an entire forum of CDers who are dying to know your secrets for passing so well. I can't imagine you'd not want to post a pic for fear of being "found out", since you are already very much out.

If you don't want to post a pic, do share why.

The fact that I am already much out has stopped me from posting my picture as everyone who knows Jennifer doesn't know she is not a woman, and I strongly want to be a woman, not a man trying to be a woman. I have been extremely successful in achieving that, because no one knows that I am not a woman since I go out as Jennifer 20 years ago. If I post my picture, I will give everything away and I will not know what to do...may be Jennifer will never appear again in this world or I will go into a deep depression...
I really hope that someone out here understand my feeling, because I need all the supports I can get badly, so far, I think I am alone, either here or in the world out there.

[Lorileah]

So now I have to ask, do you live your life 24/7 as a woman? Or do you live teh majority of your life as a male?

[KandisTX]

So now I have to ask, do you live your life 24/7 as a woman? Or do you live teh majority of your life as a male?

according to another post by the OP, they claim that they are both "A Genetic Male and a Genetic Female". They also claim they are married and live full time as a man with their family but also live full time as Jen. I find this a little confusing myself, but that is what the OP claims in another thread they started.

[rhonda]

I don't know what kind of tourament you were in . scratch or handicap .sancktion or unscanktion you can not sign up without some kind of verif cation , the officials must really be stupid to let you in , but women think they can compete with men bowling they probly can so congrats

[jenniferoonus]

I don't know what kind of tourament you were in . scratch or handicap .sancktion or unscanktion you can not sign up without some kind of verif cation , the officials must really be stupid to let you in , but women think they can compete with men bowling they probly can so congrats

My wife works full time and I have taken a nice package from my company 5 years ago so I am lucky that I don't have to work. I have asked my wife to stop working and travel around the world with me but she really enjoy her work. My kids are not living with us. So, I am Jennifer on all weekdays (daytime) and a husband on weeknights and weekends. My wife is totally not accepting so she has never met Jennifer, I told her about Jennifer about 11 months ago. Currently, we are trying to work things out but its not promising...

I live in 2 completely separated worlds. In the Jennifer's world, all her friends only know her as a genetic female who married to a hushand with 2 kids. In my world as a husband, everyone (except my wife) only know me as a loving husband and fathers, none of them know about Jennifer.

Sounds confusing, I don't blame you as I am confuse too. I don't know what my future is but I am doing well right now, I just don't think too much of my future, life is too short! However, while I have many good friends in both worlds, I cannot discuss my situation with anyone of them as my 2 worlds don't cross. Hence I am here...but I didn't expect to receive so many discussions over my bowling. Can we all stop talking about bowling and talk about my unusual situation? I would really appreciate it. Thank you in advance. Jennifer

[Avana]

Putting icing on your head doesn't make you a cupcake. It's cheating.

this comment reeks of transphobia. as do many others in this thread.

if it's ok with the supreme court, it's probably ethical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards


I'm not a 'genetic woman', but legally I am female. If I were in a bowling league, what league would I join?

Is it also unfair if someone who wins a bowling competition was raised and trained by a professional bowler?

[KandisTX]

this comment reeks of transphobia. as do many others in this thread.

if it's ok with the supreme court, it's probably ethical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards


I'm not a 'genetic woman', but legally I am female. If I were in a bowling league, what league would I join?

Is it also unfair if someone who wins a bowling competition was raised and trained by a professional bowler?

Renee Richards was a TransSexual who had SRS and became a LEGAL female. The OP is a genetic male who bowled in a WOMEN'S competition, thereby CHEATING as they are NOT a Female, either by birth or by having had SRS. The main issue many have is that the OP claims they are a genetic female when they are "Jen", however they are still genetically MALE, and therefore NOT eligible to bowl in a WOMEN ONLY competition.

[Babeba]

The fact that I am already much out has stopped me from posting my picture as everyone who knows Jennifer doesn't know she is not a woman, and I strongly want to be a woman, not a man trying to be a woman. I have been extremely successful in achieving that, because no one knows that I am not a woman since I go out as Jennifer 20 years ago. If I post my picture, I will give everything away and I will not know what to do...may be Jennifer will never appear again in this world or I will go into a deep depression...
I really hope that someone out here understand my feeling, because I need all the supports I can get badly, so far, I think I am alone, either here or in the world out there.

I think I'm missing something here. What will you be giving away here if you post a picture of yourself and share with others in the same boat of wanting/needing to express their inner woman your tips, hints and tricks on how to appear 100% passable? It's not as though if someone on here recognized you as someone they knew in real life, that they could 'out' you as belonging to this website without 'outing' themselves. All of us GGs who have/do post pictures of our selves on here run the same risk as you do, with possibly being recognized. So do the many, many other CDers and other TG folk who post pictures of themselves as they usually go out. You're not alone in spending a lot of time dressed, but this board does tend to take you more seriously - and trust you more - if you share that trust with them by being yourself.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

once again we enter the fictionmania zone...

[jenniferoonus]

I think I'm missing something here. What will you be giving away here if you post a picture of yourself and share with others in the same boat of wanting/needing to express their inner woman your tips, hints and tricks on how to appear 100% passable? It's not as though if someone on here recognized you as someone they knew in real life, that they could 'out' you as belonging to this website without 'outing' themselves. All of us GGs who have/do post pictures of our selves on here run the same risk as you do, with possibly being recognized. So do the many, many other CDers and other TG folk who post pictures of themselves as they usually go out. You're not alone in spending a lot of time dressed, but this board does tend to take you more seriously - and trust you more - if you share that trust with them by being yourself.

I am sorry, then why didn't you post your picture?

My background is Internet security and I know very well once you posted your photos, they are open to the whole wide world, not just confined to the members here. If that's OK by you, I will post my partial picture.

once again we enter the fictionmania zone...

This shows that my situation is really unusual to the extend that you think it's a fiction...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

prior to this forum, i had been trolling the internet pretending to be a woman since 9600 baud rate was rocket speed..

i know the difference between real and fiction..i did like your story though..if you want to search for someone else's picture to use , i can give you some free access sites with lots of photos you can pick from...

[Avana]

Renee Richards was a TransSexual who had SRS and became a LEGAL female. The OP is a genetic male who bowled in a WOMEN'S competition, thereby CHEATING as they are NOT a Female, either by birth or by having had SRS. The main issue many have is that the OP claims they are a genetic female when they are "Jen", however they are still genetically MALE, and therefore NOT eligible to bowl in a WOMEN ONLY competition.

I am a legal female, without SRS.

All male to female transsexuals are 'genetic males', excepting those of course with abnormal chromosomes or intersex people who have been socialized male. Not all transsexuals undergo SRS. Not all transsexuals undergo HRT.

Obviously the OP exhibits transgender behavior of some sort, with her expressed desire that her femininity be legitimized. Who are you to tell her what her identity is or isn't?

Furthermore, many of the comments in this thread also demonstrate misogynist attitudes towards women - it's clear that many of you feel women to be inferior to men in such a way that a man's presence, even if he is smaller and daintier, is somehow automatically a threat and unfair to women, and that a women's bowling league is some represents some kind of handicap for this allegedly inferior sex.

Would it be unfair to men for a woman to bowl in a man's league?

By your logic, a genetic woman should be able to take Testosterone her whole life, get super ripped like Buck Angel, but never have a 'sex change surgery', and thus still be able to participate in sports with women, as a 'woman', and it would be 'cheating' to participate in a league with genetic men.

A Woman's League is not a handicapped league. It's also not a 'pull down your pants and show us what you got' league. A woman's bowling league is a social outlet for people who are socially women. Discriminating against transgender people in this way is bigotry plain and simple.

[Iskandra]

I still (after weeks) hear a lot of gripes and groans..
Geez girls! Someone is obviously reaching out for some support bowling aside!
Myself, I'm still as confused as the rest of you, but hostility will not fix that!

Jen, yes anything on the internet is out there, but at the same time, there is sooo much crap err data that somethings arent easiy found..
Jen and your male persona live in the same locality, perhaps their lives ARE seperate, but the thing that gets me (and i assume others) is going to the shop for milk as male, you would at some point in all these years bump into a lady that bowls with jen.. And despite what you think, when people know each other for a long time, character traits, mannerisms and features become obvious... Those that know Jen would see her even in genetic male form...

"It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time;
you can even fool some of the people all of the time;
but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time."


Lincoln said that, and its true..
I think dear Jen, the people here don't want to be in the fooled category...
And your story is a very big pill to swallow so i guess support does come with a price...

[ReineD]

Obviously the OP exhibits transgender behavior of some sort, with her expressed desire that her femininity be legitimized. Who are you to tell her what her identity is or isn't?

Avana, the issue is that Jennifer by her own admission is male at home with wife and kids and apparently has no plans to change this. Further, Jennifer claims to have a complete life outside of his/her home with people who have no idea who he/she is. There are very few middle aged GMs who can pull this off without HRT and the story does seem dubious. I don't know of any transwomen who, even if they chose to not have SRS or undergo HRT, would be satisfied with such a scenario especially over the long term.

I know we can't make a general rule for everyone, but it seems implausible for a transwoman to come in here and "brag" over having pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and to further seek more such competitions in order to be in the limelight again.

On the subject of competitions, male vs. female, there are established rules by sports organizations about this. I imagine they differ depending on the sport and level of professionalism, but don't they require someone to be on HRT for awhile, or have had their gender changed legally? Jennifer has not done this, and until he or she does, his or her actions are not ethical, and I think if was the self-congratulations over the whole thing that went against the grain here.

[Lorileah]

By your logic, a genetic woman should be able to take Testosterone her whole life, get super ripped like Buck Angel, but never have a 'sex change surgery', and thus still be able to participate in sports with women, as a 'woman', and it would be 'cheating' to participate in a league with genetic men.

Weak arguments all around. Physiology and muscle make up put men in and women in different levels. In an ideal world you would have to qualify to participate regardless of gender. You would see then that the number of females who are able to qualify at that level would be low. Thus they would say it was unfair (welcome to Title IX which was also upheld by high courts} And using hormones (especially androgens are illegal no matter what genetic sex you are. They have been shown to enhance performance (which technically IS the issue here..the OP HAS androgens the rest the field has less. Thus the advantage)

A woman's bowling league is a social outlet for people who are socially women.

this wasn'y social this was a paid competition. People drinking beer and not getting compensation is social. No problem there except I still think that to be fair, the fact that the OP has testosterone in higher levels than the rest of the group is an issue

Discriminating against transgender people in this way is bigotry plain and simple.

I agree IF the discrimination makes the playing field unlevel. In this case the OP made the playing field unlevel. Just because you put on a dress does not make you a woman. By your logic in the next Olympic games all the US has to do is dress men and say they are transgendered in the women's sports.

I understand your point but the argument is weak and I believe that in day to day competition GG's would agree that this was unfair, so by your account the women are misogynistic which would be an oxymoron.

[Avana]

Weak arguments all around. Physiology and muscle make up put men in and women in different levels. In an ideal world you would have to qualify to participate regardless of gender. You would see then that the number of females who are able to qualify at that level would be low. Thus they would say it was unfair (welcome to Title IX which was also upheld by high courts} And using hormones (especially androgens are illegal no matter what genetic sex you are. They have been shown to enhance performance (which technically IS the issue here..the OP HAS androgens the rest the field has less. Thus the advantage)

Did I miss something in the thread? How do you know so much about the requirements of this bowling league? Did the OP win the olympics or something?

It just seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made. I don't even care if this is a fictional story, it's an interesting dilemma either way.

this wasn'y social this was a paid competition. People drinking beer and not getting compensation is social. No problem there except I still think that to be fair, the fact that the OP has testosterone in higher levels than the rest of the group is an issue I agree IF the discrimination makes the playing field unlevel. In this case the OP made the playing field unlevel. Just because you put on a dress does not make you a woman. By your logic in the next Olympic games all the US has to do is dress men and say they are transgendered in the women's sports.

I guess I just don't see how the playing field was unlevel here. Maybe I just don't know enough about bowling?

How do you know people weren't drinking beer? Did the OP say whether this was a professional bowling league or amateur?

I understand your point but the argument is weak and I believe that in day to day competition GG's would agree that this was unfair, so by your account the women are misogynistic which would be an oxymoron.

Of course women can be misogynist and/or chauvinistic. Just like transgender people can be transphobic (and many are). What gives you the authority to speak for all GGs, by the way?



---

Avana, the issue is that Jennifer by her own admission is male at home with wife and kids and apparently has no plans to change this. Further, Jennifer claims to have a complete life outside of his/her home with people who have no idea who he/she is. There are very few middle aged GMs who can pull this off without HRT and the story does seem dubious. I don't know of any transwomen who, even if they chose to not have SRS or undergo HRT, would be satisfied with such a scenario especially over the long term.

I know we can't make a general rule for everyone, but it seems implausible for a transwoman to come in here and "brag" over having pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and to further seek more such competitions in order to be in the limelight again.

On the subject of competitions, male vs. female, there are established rules by sports organizations about this. I imagine they differ depending on the sport and level of professionalism, but don't they require someone to be on HRT for awhile, or have had their gender changed legally? Jennifer has not done this, and until he or she does, his or her actions are not ethical, and I think if was the self-congratulations over the whole thing that went against the grain here.

I don't know, I see the points, but I've got to stick up for trans rights here.

Being at home with kids and a wife does not preclude a man from being transgender. Nor does the presence or absence of any specific action. Transgender is an identity issue.

This is a similar discussion to the bathroom dilemma that we face as well - what constitutes "permission" to use the women's restroom? Here in NYC transgender people have legal protection to use the restroom of their preference without having to jump through legal or medical hoops. Yet even with that protection, there are people who would still attempt to call the police on me or ban me from their establishment.

So speaking of ethics, I don't believe it is ethical to force transgender people to undergo certain medical or legal procedures in order to allow them to express their preferred gender.


Look, if I'm saying anything here, it's that we shouldn't be so quick to point the finger and yell 'CHEATER' at someone here. This situation is ethically complex, and there's a reason things like this have gone to the Supreme Court in the past.



And a solution:

Instead of dividing sports up men/women, we should do it more like boxing and have divisions like 'featherweight', 'heavyweight' etc, and just take gender out of the system entirely.

Unless it's for social reasons, in which case being transgender should not at all matter.

[Babeba]

I am sorry, then why didn't you post your picture?

Ummm, my picture IS up there. See the gal in the jeans and unbuttoned blazer, next to a wall with bricks in? Smelling some gorgeous purple flowers? That'd be yours truly. I did have a full face picture up there for quite a while and I've posted other pictures here and there on this site - I changed to this one because not only did I really like the picture and it reminds me of a wonderful time Crystal Alberta and I had exploring together (and the lovely SMELL of those flowers - they were incredible!) whenever I see one of my posts, but also as a subtle dig at Karren, our resident jeans-hater because I happen to think my bum is quite cute in that pair of jeans!

However, because I don't wear that much makeup and my bone structure/body hair is definitely genetically female to start with - I don't have much to go on in terms of advice I can give to CDers in order to make them passable. It'd be a shame to hide Jennifer's lovely, passable self and not give any tips to help other girls on here along!

[GaleWarning]

=Avana;2533171I don't know, I see the points, but I've got to stick up for trans rights here.

.

Yeah, let's not give a damn about the rights of the women in the losing teams, or the organisers who have every right to specify what gender the competitors should be.
Get real! Stop thinking only within your narrow frame of reference.

And a solution:

Instead of dividing sports up men/women, we should do it more like boxing and have divisions like 'featherweight', 'heavyweight' etc, and just take gender out of the system entirely.

Poor example, boxing divisions are not genderless.

Down here in NZ, primary school sports like rugby are graduated according to weight, not age. Boys do not normally play against girls, except in teams from really small primary schools. And then everone knows the gender of each team member. Nothing is kept secret.