Just won the ladies' champion title in bowling

[Avana]

Yeah, let's not give a damn about the rights of the women in the losing teams, or the organisers who have every right to specify what gender the competitors should be.
Get real! Stop thinking only within your narrow frame of reference.

Sorry, but my sisters are getting assaulted for these kinds of things. This is the reality.

Check the end of my post for another realistic solution.

Poor example, boxing divisions are not genderless.

Down here in NZ, primary school sports like rugby are graduated according to weight, not age. Boys do not play against girls.

Yes, but they easily could be, which is the point, especially in a sport like Bowling. You're saying all of these things like 'boys do not play against girls' and 'boxing divisions are not genderless' as if they are some kind of natural law, written at the time the universe was created.

They aren't.

There are ways to change the system to be humane and protect the rights of transgender people to express their identity as they wish and also the rights of non transgender people to participate in fair competition.

[GaleWarning]

There are ways to change the system to be humane and protect the rights of transgender people to express their identity as they wish and also the rights of non transgender people to participate in fair competition.

I still think the rights of trans people should never supercede the rights of non-trans people, and vice versa.

I still think that you and others on this thread fail to grasp the real issue here, namely Jennifer's lies and deception.

[Avana]

I still think the rights of trans people should never supercede the rights of non-trans people, and vice versa.

I still think that you and others on this thread fail to grasp the real issue here, namely Jennifer's lies and deception.

There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

[Babeba]

This is a similar discussion to the bathroom dilemma that we face as well - what constitutes "permission" to use the women's restroom?

So speaking of ethics, I don't believe it is ethical to force transgender people to undergo certain medical or legal procedures in order to allow them to express their preferred gender.


Look, if I'm saying anything here, it's that we shouldn't be so quick to point the finger and yell 'CHEATER' at someone here. This situation is ethically complex, and there's a reason things like this have gone to the Supreme Court in the past.



And a solution:

Instead of dividing sports up men/women, we should do it more like boxing and have divisions like 'featherweight', 'heavyweight' etc, and just take gender out of the system entirely.

Unless it's for social reasons, in which case being transgender should not at all matter.

It's been a while since I took that human biological variation class in university, but I can hazily recall discussing some of those biological differences that xx and xy impart on human beings. There is such a thing as gender, and such a thing as biological sex - and it is clearer nowhere else that I have been than on a board such as this where so many people don't have an overlap between the two. If I recall correctly, genetic males tend to have lower percentages of fatty tissue in their muscle, meaning that pound-for-pound, their muscle is stronger and steadier. Also, I have this vague idea (no sources I can pull out off the top of my head, though) that genetic males on the overall test as having a stronger hand-eye co-ordination than genetic females. Of course, there's some overlap between the categories, and individuals who are exceptional - and I SO WISH the NHL had let Hayley Wickenhauser play on a North American pro team, she would've wiped the floors with those boys - but the trend is there.

With those biological sex differences in mind, I can see some of the other female competitors in an all-female tournament being upset if they were to find out a fellow competitor was biologically male. There are enough bowling leagues out there which are mixed categories, that those who wish to play in a mixed - sex and/or gender environment are able to, without anyone thinking twice about it.

I think for many of the posters on this thread, there was a slight undertone of 'teehee, I got away with fooling them!' in the original post that may have hit them the wrong way. Like I had said before, it was a poor situation for the OP to have to deal with; difficult without outing herself or compromising her sense of sporting fair play. I'm glad that she didn't take the money for herself, but I really wish that she had donated it to a charity such as a women's shelter to help women in emergency situations like escaping prostitution or abusive relationships. Even better if she could find one that was trans-friendly! Donating the winnings to a place where they could do a lot of good might have undone some of the negativity built up by the original lie.

[GaleWarning]

There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

Avana, I am the essence of total acceptance of the rights of all groups. You are the one who would claim special rights for your group at the expense of other groups.

[Avana]

It's been a while since I took that human biological variation class in university, but I can hazily recall discussing some of those biological differences that xx and xy impart on human beings. There is such a thing as gender, and such a thing as biological sex - and it is clearer nowhere else that I have been than on a board such as this where so many people don't have an overlap between the two. If I recall correctly, genetic males tend to have lower percentages of fatty tissue in their muscle, meaning that pound-for-pound, their muscle is stronger and steadier.

...

But by that 'biological' logic, we should also segregate races who show a trend of biological advantages against other races. (Or for that matter, people with longer legs, broader shoulders, etc.)

But we don't, because we protect the civil rights of races now (or purport to at least). This thread is just a big reminder to me of how far we have to come to get rights for transgender people.

I also believe women should be able to choose to compete with men if they wish, be they cis or trans women. I think the gender barrier in sports is an archaic division and that biology is not the issue here, but rather it is that as a society we have decided that gender should be the ultimate, indestructable, great divider of people.

Avana, I am the essence of total acceptance of the rights of all groups. You are the one who would claim special rights for your group at the expense of other groups.

Cis people already have the rights to be their preferred gender! This isn't special rights, it's equal rights!

And as I said, women both cis and trans should have the right to compete with men if they wish too! The whole problem is the rigidity of the gender structures, which both deprives transgender people of their rights and identities, and enforces misogynistic tendencies. We should divide athletes by age, skill, strength, stamina, etc. Not what's between their legs.

[Babeba]

There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

Would you mind clarifying here, Avana? I'm not sure I follow.

What I think I'm reading from Clayfish is that the right of one person shouldn't trump the right of another person, first and foremost. Second, that it's deceitful to enter into a private contest and withold information that may be relating to the competition.

I definitely agree that this (transgender team sports) is a TOTAL grey zone, that it's incredibly complex and there are no easy answers other than to blanket exclude people (which isn't fair, either). My personal take is that if others in the competition can't give informed consent and it is a strict 'female only' competition when mixed categories are available somewhere (as is generally the case with bowling) then the player in Jennifer's position probably ought to be in the mixed category. In the situation where Jennifer felt forced to play, perhaps she could have had an "out-of-town trip" or scheduling conflict? It's entirely one thing to play for fun, and something quite different when the competitive level raises.

But by that 'biological' logic, we should also segregate races who show a trend of biological advantages against other races. (Or for that matter, people with longer legs, broader shoulders, etc.)

But we don't, because we protect the civil rights of races now (or purport to at least). This thread is just a big reminder to me of how far we have to come to get rights for transgender people.

I also believe women should be able to choose to compete with men if they wish, be they cis or trans women. I think the gender barrier in sports is an archaic division and that biology is not the issue here, but rather it is that as a society we have decided that gender should be the ultimate, indestructable, great divider of people.




Cis people already have the rights to be their preferred gender! This isn't special rights, it's equal rights!

And as I said, women both cis and trans should have the right to compete with men if they wish too! The whole problem is the rigidity of the gender structures, which both deprives transgender people of their rights and identities, and enforces misogynistic tendencies. We should divide athletes by age, skill, strength, stamina, etc. Not what's between their legs.

There are certain fields where dividing up by genetic ethnic characteristics are useful; identifying possible murder victims from skeletal remains, for example. Yet the fact that certain 'races' tend to dominate certain sports is more so a sociocultural phenomenon and a training phenomenon than a 'racial' phenomenon. Many pro athletes in the 1920's to 1950's were Jewish, as young people sought sports scholarships to lift themselves from racial segretation and ghettoes; today much the same case can be made to explain the many black athletes in professional sports.

The thing that makes gender rights in sports tricky is the overlap (or lack of) with biological sex. There ARE undeniable differences between being biologically male and biologically female. If you were to compare a list of the top GM marathon runners' times with the top GG times, the fastest biologically female marathon runner wouldn't make the top 10 by over 10 minutes (a huge margin in that sort of a race). From top-level sports, it's a slippery slope down to amateur leagues and frankly based on the OP's context it sounded like genetically male competitors were NOT welcome in that particular contest. That's fine, there are other contests open to them. Just as much as there should be space made for any woman (cis or trans) to compete with men if they choose, there should be space made for those who choose to compete with the same biological gender as they are. That is equal rights - allowing people to choose how and when to compete, rather than banning them from play because of predjudice.

I'm all for equal gender rights - equality is good. Equal rights in expressing gender doesn't erase biological differences; if it did, no-one would have to take HRT or do invasive surgery to correct their birth-defect sex.

[NicoleScott]

I'm not a 'genetic woman', but legally I am female. If I were in a bowling league, what league would I join?

Good question. Simple answer. Ask the league officials. Renee Richards didn't try to sneak into competition by hiding her sex or gender. If you want to compete as a woman, lay it all out there and let the tounament officials or sanctioning body decide. If you don't like their decision, take it to the courts, as Renee Richards did.
It's not up to individuals wanting to compete to make these decisions, in fairness to the other competitors.

this comment reeks of transphobia. as do many others in this thread.

This was your response to my "icing on your head" comment. So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic? Common response that if you can't win the argument, attack the person. CD's who prefer not to be assumed gay are homophobic? If you disagree with Obama's policies, you are racist?
As a crossdresser, I fall under the umbrella term "transgendered". I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?

[AllieSF]

Babeba: Your request and questioning for a pic has been handled numerous times in other threads on this site. Read those for all the reasons why people do not put their pics up. Your pic is profile and mine is a silhouette, Big deal. Pics here don't prove anything because many pics here are so doctored that they are totally unrecognizable. The topic is winning a formal tournament as a man in female attire.

Jennifer should not have done that.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Avana one thing you may not be considering is that regardless of the intricate scientific, cultural, and societal implications....rules are rules...

You can change the rules, you can try to finagle your way to get by..."dirty hits" in football and hockey, "traveling" with the basketball for example..
and yes, we have mostly mens and womens sports..we can discuss whether that concept is archaic...

but frankly i think we should take a second and consider that in bowling, people take their rules VERY SERIOUSLY... and bowling is progressive in the sense that there are co-ed leagues, and men and women freely compete..

every league i've ever been in was co-ed, and women get no advantage over men, or vice versa..

women only and men only leagues also exist... so everyone is covered..

to a bowler that cares about their sport (and yes, i called it a sport.some would disagree with this), cheating is a mortal offense...it is lowest of low, i had a teammate cheat, and he was asked to never return to the entire bowling alley!!

and someone that claims to win a tournament as a woman, when they are a man in every way is cheating..

and to take it a step further, I would argue that this OP's story is something that transmen and transwomen should care about because it is exactly what cisgendered people are afraid of..there are transsexuals in professional racing, professional golf, professional tennis, donna rose wrestled in the national female wrestling tournament...it gets better for us all the time....the last thing we need is somebody crossdressing and stealing money off a bunch of ladies in a local bowling league..

[PretzelGirl]

Did I miss something in the thread? How do you know so much about the requirements of this bowling league? Did the OP win the olympics or something?

Well, since she said it is a women's tournament, we do know that. And we also know that she identifies as a male.

It just seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made. I don't even care if this is a fictional story, it's an interesting dilemma either way.

This is true. The OP has been asked some things that have been left unanswered.

I guess I just don't see how the playing field was unlevel here. Maybe I just don't know enough about bowling?

How do you know people weren't drinking beer? Did the OP say whether this was a professional bowling league or amateur?

Generally men carry higher averages than women. Is it biological or do more men want to compete at a higher level than women that may like it more for the social value? That can be a lot of discussion on its own. I do know a lot of women that pay to get into tournaments totally for the social value and fun while knowing they probably aren't going to get a dime in prizes. The men tend to be more about the competition and money. So a man in a women's tournament could easily have an advantage going in. Plus the sheer there are far more men that bowl in leagues and tournaments than women.

Interesting note. The USBC is the governing agency in the US for sanctioned bowling. On the amateur front, there is the USBC Tournament which was historically for men but now allows women to compete in it. And some of those women have taken top prizes. Then there is the USBC Women's Championship for women only, no men.

Look, if I'm saying anything here, it's that we shouldn't be so quick to point the finger and yell 'CHEATER' at someone here. This situation is ethically complex, and there's a reason things like this have gone to the Supreme Court in the past.

I agree with it being complex (and this thread is proof). But the way things are structured now (not counting better ways of doing things as society evolves), it comes down to genetic markers. If the OP has a license/birth certificate that says male, then when entering competition, that is how they should enter. If she wants to enter women's competition, then make the moves to changes that marker. What ever the laws may be on what it takes to change a marker and whether we agree with those laws or not, that is what we have to work with until they are improved (and is certainly yet another thread possibility).

And this is why I believe this could only have been unsanctioned competition. To be sanctioned with the USBC or the PBA (the pros), you claim your sex and provide your social security number (winnings can be taxed). We can separately argue whether it is right to separate people by M or F but the fact is that this tournament was done now and not in the future so we should abide by laws and moral obligations of the here and now. If we want to improve things, we won't be doing that by trying to be deceptive.

[Avana]

Avana one thing you may not be considering is that regardless of the intricate scientific, cultural, and societal implications....rules are rules...

Yes, that's understood. I am saying the rules need to be changed. That's why we have a democratic (and I use that term loosely) process. If 'rules were rules' forever, we'd still have people suffering as slaves.

and to take it a step further, I would argue that this OP's story is something that transmen and transwomen should care about because it is exactly what cisgendered people are afraid of..

Let me get this straight - transgender people should condone transphobia against them? To compare this to another civil rights struggle, it would be like saying that blacks should care about where they sit on the bus, because white people are afraid of them and giving up their good bus seats. Sorry, but to me the OP is a non-op, noho transgender rosa parks. Is it transgressive? Absolutely.

Good question. Simple answer. Ask the league officials. Renee Richards didn't try to sneak into competition by hiding her sex or gender. If you want to compete as a woman, lay it all out there and let the tounament officials or sanctioning body decide. If you don't like their decision, take it to the courts, as Renee Richards did.
It's not up to individuals wanting to compete to make these decisions, in fairness to the other competitors.

I agree that while transgender rights are still in the stone age, it's a good idea to talk to officials first. If it goes south, she can involve the media and legal agencies and also protest, and it would draw attention to transgender rights in a larger way. However, I don't believe that a transgender person should have to expose their history in this way, it's a personal decision to do so, and comes down to personal ethics. I would personally have no problem doing so, but there are a lot of transgender people who live 'deep stealth' who should not need to compromise their identities this way. The OP is more or less deep stealth in this league, according to her description.

This was your response to my "icing on your head" comment. So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic? Common response that if you can't win the argument, attack the person. CD's who prefer not to be assumed gay are homophobic? If you disagree with Obama's policies, you are racist?
As a crossdresser, I fall under the umbrella term "transgendered". I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?

Yes, that is a transphobic and ignorant statement. It is because it is a blanket statement. If you don't feel like a woman when you put a wig on, that's your thing. But there are thousands of non-op, no-hormone transgender individuals out there for whom clothing or wigs may be the way in which they express their identity, and to reject their gender expression across the board in this way is most definitely transphobic.

Yes, it is quite obviously homophobic to be afraid as being perceived as gay.

I'm really not sure how this Obama comment you made is relevant - If you disagree with Obama's policies, it would most likely make you a republican...

Would you mind clarifying here, Avana? I'm not sure I follow.

Sure. Transphobia includes demeaning words, thoughts, actions about transgender people. The comments this individual made are quite clear in that they don't believe transgender identity is as legitimate as cisgender identity. That's the definition of transphobia. Then this individual went on to say that the OP was a 'liar' and 'deceiver', which are two common transphobic perceptions of transgender people. This is the very excuse used by men who murder their transgender dates when they find out their history.

What I think I'm reading from Clayfish is that the right of one person shouldn't trump the right of another person, first and foremost. Second, that it's deceitful to enter into a private contest and withold information that may be relating to the competition.

We're talking about minority rights, and we live in a society where minority rights have always prevailed. And also, competing without transgender people is not a civil right of any kind. It's discrimination. The equivalent to a historical struggle would be like saying that the rights of Rosa Parks to ride at the front of a bus should not trump the 'rights' that white people supposedly have to that seat by virtue of their genetics. It's patently bigoted, and wrong.

Well, since she said it is a women's tournament, we do know that. And we also know that she identifies as a male.

In her OP, she said 'At one point I was thinking that this was not fair to the GG participants, but I told myself that I am not a male either'.

She doesn't identify as male, she is transgender.

If the OP has a license/birth certificate that says male, then when entering competition, that is how they should enter.

This sort of thing is tricky. This requires medical permission, which requires the money to procure a doctor. Many young and minority transgender individuals cannot afford the kind of medical attention and the legal fees associated with name and gender marker change. This should not be a privilege of affluent transgender people, but an inalienable right of all.

[TGMarla]

Wow! What a thread! Or is it a can of worms?

I have to agree with Nicole, Lorileah, and others here who see this as cheating. Sorry Avana, but your lifelong struggles with gender identity have clouded your ability to see the reality of the situation here. Men and women are different on the cellular level, and their muscle structure is different from one another's. And whereas you could say the same about race (this topic is tackled in a really good, if not a little dry, book entitled "Taboo" by Jon Entine), the argument still remains that there is an advantage for genetic men when it comes to physical competition. That is not to say that some women cannot beat men at sports. But Jen entered this competition under false pretenses, and won the competition. Ergo, she cheated.

I am all for the transgendered being allowed to express one's gender identity without prejudice. But some lines cannot be erased. Even very successfull SRS and ensuing surgeries cannot change one's genetic structure. While a male may attain the ability to live life as a female, he cannot ever be truly female, even if we recognize her to be so. Avana's vision of this perfect world where all is equal is a grand illusion, but idealistic at best.

Jen, I'm happy that you are able to pass as a woman so well. I'm sad that your situation with your wife is so messed up. Your continuing to live this double life is never going to help that situation. If you're telling us the truth, then you must be a very effeminate male to begin with. I wish you well in your endeavors, but you need to nurture your ethics a bit.

[Lorileah]

There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

Excuse me? I know a lot about Clay and transphobia isn't part of them. How is calling out someone for deception being transphobic? This is getting out of hand. In a perfect world Serena Williams would be able to compete against Roger Federer and on any given day as in any given sport she could win. But she would lose far more than she would win. Both are the top of their game. Horses race without regard to gender and usually the males beat the females with a few exceptions (see Zenyatta). IF this was truly a level field when you went to horse races there would be equal males and females. But the males win more frequently (probably 90% of the time) so it isn't an economic reality. There is one women competing against the men in the PBA and she won a tournament but if one of the men went to the women's league, they would have a higher success rate.

It isn't misogyny it is reality. Steeped in thousands of years of evolution. The frame and the muscles are different. Sports were invented to fit the male form. In some cases women may be able to go head to head with the top men, but in most cases they cannot. It is the opposite men vs women.

Life is what it is. There are hurdles that will need to be overcome. What one wears should not be an issue. How one feels should not be an issue. Yet just by saying you feel like a women has it's own prejudice. How does a woman feel differently than a male? Eventually the gender or sex of a person may not matter in a physical contest. But your arguments that just any male could compete in a female arena is spurious. It is unfair. Your example of the Supreme court was based on the fact that Ms Richards no longer had male hormones. She had undergone surgery that changed physical characteristics along with changing hormones. If a woman used androgens she would violate the rules of a sport where being female is the rule. These cases have been shown to give unfair advantage. If she were to take the hormones and compete with males, the field would be more level. If the OP had been on testosterone blockers (or castrated) and had lived long enough this way to not have the hormones effect the muscles, then no problem. But she didn't. She has admitted to being masculine and feminine as she wishes. What it is is a violation of fair play and sports(person)ship. It is ethics. The OP's ethics are not what the majority here would agree with. Not that this is unusual in the sports world especially in modern times. What is the quote "winning is everything"?

As an athlete, and not a great one but fairly average, I want to compete in a fair manner. As I stated before at one time I was a fairly good volleyball player, high comp level, and had I competed against women in their sport with their rules I would have been a very dominant force. (PS at the same time there were many women who were competing in the pro-level with men but they used men's set up and rules). But it wasn't what I wanted. It would not have been fair. You see that being TG as being unfair and needing to e accommodated. I see taking advantage of such as being unfair.

and with that I am done with this thread.

[docrobbysherry]

I always admit I CHEAT to appear to be a female. So, who here doesn't? Who doesn't wear makeup and/or a wig, etc., etc.? Maybe only the GGs?

Who here wouldn't LOVE to pass as well as Jen does? Whether she's for real or not?

WHERE should we draw the line with proof of gender testing? To get 1/2 price drinks on "Ladies nite" at the bar, what SHOULD be required?

Wear a dress?
Dress plus makeup, forms, and a wig?
Show that u have REAL breasts?
Bare your crotch?
Maybe, carry your birth certificate?


Doesn't ANYONE get what Jen's thread and the accompanying posts r REALLY ABOUT?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

avana you said "Let me get this straight - transgender people should condone transphobia against them? To compare this to another civil rights struggle, it would be like saying that blacks should care about where they sit on the bus, because white people are afraid of them and giving up their good bus seats. Sorry, but to me the OP is a non-op, noho transgender rosa parks. Is it transgressive? Absolutely."

(Sorry i don't do well with multiquote)

First off, taking it to this level will get you nowhere with people that are open to discussion..it is nothing like saying black people sit in the back of the bus...that is just baloney and worthless rhetoric...at least you didn't bring up the holocaust..
it is exactly what it is...cheating at sports.

Screaming transphobia at everybody is a great big yawn..it is a personal attack on me from you and i resent it. Shame on you...

Real transphobia is deadly, but you are marginalizing your own standing to fight it by throwing it around so casually...
you are enabling transphobia by your scattershot approach to using that word...

my comment was aimed at the silly fear people have that trans people have some secret agenda...that we want to sneak into bathrooms, that there are "Sex-changers" getting ahead in track and field...we all know that's ridiculous, but here we have a person who dresses as a female and brags about winning as a female in a tournament...

nobody likes cheaters, and i don't want my fate to be tied to cheaters..the story isn't true anyway..

[Avana]

You see that being TG as being unfair and needing to e accommodated. I see taking advantage of such as being unfair.

See this is where it gets really simple. The burden of proof here is on you to prove that the OP is taking advantage being TG, versus expressing her identity.

What you are saying amounts to 'transgender people should either be excluded from sports or humiliated and forced to participate as their birth gender', or they have to jump through gatekeeper medical and legal hoops in order to erase their transgender identity

I mean, you do realize that women have been barred from participating in sports at all in history, under the tyranny of these same 'biological' and social truths, right? Good thing we have idealists...

And to whoever said it, yes, I am absolutely idealistc, and I think in my lifetime we will see some major advances for transgender people in this way.

First off, taking it to this level will get you nowhere with people that are open to discussion..it is nothing like saying black people sit in the back of the bus...that is just baloney and worthless rhetoric...at least you didn't bring up the holocaust..
it is exactly what it is...cheating at sports.

I recommend this article:
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/...jQ4ZjA1Yzg0YmE

Screaming transphobia at everybody is a great big yawn..it is a personal attack on me from you and i resent it. Shame on you...

Real transphobia is deadly, but you are marginalizing your own standing to fight it by throwing it around so casually...
you are enabling transphobia by your scattershot approach to using that word...

I used the term with regard to members of the forum to characterize two specific statements. I'd hardly call that 'screaming transphobia at everybody'. It is what it is. You don't own the word either.

my comment was aimed at the silly fear people have that trans people have some secret agenda...that we want to sneak into bathrooms, that there are "Sex-changers" getting ahead in track and field...we all know that's ridiculous, but here we have a person who dresses as a female and brags about winning as a female in a tournament...

nobody likes cheaters, and i don't want my fate to be tied to cheaters..the story isn't true anyway..

I did not really get bragging from this.

[Tara D. Rose]

I'm afraid to say anything here.

[ReineD]

I am saying the rules need to be changed.

There are two distinct discussions going on here. The first was about whether or not it was OK for Jennifer to disregard the rules that most people in this thread assumed were in place, since it was a women's and not a mixed competition, for prize money. To her credit, Jennifer did come in and say she did not cash her winnings, but this wasn't until two days ago, more than one month after she began the thread and people had voiced their disapproval.

Your point is equally valid. You are saying existing rules are antiquated and need to be changed. I don't think anyone in this thread disputes this.

You yourself say that speaking to officials prior to the competition is the best way to go, yet Jennifer did not do this and I got the impression she was boasting more about having won and further having fooled everyone than just being proud that she was accepted as the transwoman or woman that she is. In prior postings and in this one as well, Jennifer does say that she is both male and female.

Really, I don't see what we are all arguing about since we all seem to agree on the major points?

[GaleWarning]

Avana said, Sure. Transphobia includes demeaning words, thoughts, actions about transgender people. The comments this individual made are quite clear in that they don't believe transgender identity is as legitimate as cisgender identity. That's the definition of transphobia. Then this individual went on to say that the OP was a 'liar' and 'deceiver', which are two common transphobic perceptions of transgender people. This is the very excuse used by men who murder their transgender dates when they find out their history.

1. Thanks for your definition of "transphobia". It enables me to refute your arguments.
2. I stated clearly that I believe transgender and cisgender rights to have equal status. So you seem unable to read for understanding.
This is not a transphobic statement; it is a reasoned conclusion.
3. I certainly believe that the OP lied about "his" true gender. This may be my perception of the OP, but I am willing to bet on it's truth value. Again, you are mistaken if you think I am picking on the OP because "he" is trans. I speak out against falsehoods at every opportunity, regardless of gender, race, creed etc.
4. I am very unlikely to murder anyone.

Avana, your rantings convince me that you would do well to seek professional help.

[NicoleScott]

I said (in post #108) "So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic?"
--and--
"I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?"

Yes, that is a transphobic and ignorant statement. It is because it is a blanket statement.

Darn right it's a blanket statement, because it's always true. You may feel more feminine, but you don't become a woman by putting on a wig. And to call it transphobia is nothing more than boo-hoo-I'm-a-victim-why-is-everyone-always-picking-on-me. It's ridiculous.

Lorileah said it best "...and with that I am done with this thread."

and with that I am done with this thread.

[jenniferoonus]

prior to this forum, i had been trolling the internet pretending to be a woman since 9600 baud rate was rocket speed..

i know the difference between real and fiction..i did like your story though..if you want to search for someone else's picture to use , i can give you some free access sites with lots of photos you can pick from...

Hey, please make sure you have enough evidence before you made the conclusion that my situation is not real, that it's just a story I created. I feel so insulted!!!

I found out from your profile that you live in NJ, I am from NJ too. I challenge you to come with Jennifer to her world and verify that my situation is true. What I need from you is an apology in this thread after your verification.

[Avana]

There are two distinct discussions going on here. The first was about whether or not it was OK for Jennifer to disregard the rules that most people in this thread assumed were in place, since it was a women's and not a mixed competition, for prize money. To her credit, Jennifer did come in and say she did not cash her winnings, but this wasn't until two days ago, more than one month after she began the thread and people had voiced their disapproval.

Your point is equally valid. You are saying existing rules are antiquated and need to be changed. I don't think anyone in this thread disputes this.

You yourself say that speaking to officials prior to the competition is the best way to go, yet Jennifer did not do this and I got the impression she was boasting more about having won and further having fooled everyone than just being proud that she was accepted as the transwoman or woman that she is. In prior postings and in this one as well, Jennifer does say that she is both male and female.

Really, I don't see what we are all arguing about since we all seem to agree on the major points?

We don't even know that this really happened. Boasting about winning anything is poor sportsmanship any way you look at it. I didn't get that impression, maybe naturally bemused and perhaps still glowing from her positive trans-experience, but that's all I get.

I guess I would also say that joining a competitive league in order to validate your gender ID is the wrong reason for joining, but it's technically not necessarily cheating (we don't know what the rules are), just selfish. I would say that this is more the case for professional leagues than for amateur leagues, which, while competitive, are also social outlets.

My point is that while I personally would confront the officials about it, both to avoid problems and to open a potentially positive dialogue about transgender participation in sports, there are plenty of transgender people who just want to live their lives as their preferred gender without needing to ask permission to be themselves all of the time. I certainly for instance would never go up to the maitre d' of a restaurant and say "Psssst... I'm a pre-op transexual who has been on hormones X months, can I use your ladies' room?". Some women may feel uncomfortable that someone like me uses that restroom, but my rights to use that restroom would be upheld without a doubt in any legal situation, even before I began hormones or changed my name and gender designations. I think the crucial right of transgender people here is to be able to express their gender identity without having to compromise their history and be publicly humiliated.

I think it's up to the individual rules of the league to say what the rules are for transgender participation. None of us know what those rules are or if they even exist. If those rules were written out for the OP when she signed up, then she obviously cheated. Many here are assuming something they do not really know.

Having said that, any leagues that pass rules precluding transgender participation are probably asking for a discrimination lawsuit, at least in some places, like NYC, where I live.

So there are two different levels of discussion happening here, yes - on one hand we can talk about the behavior of this individual, which may or may not have even happened, but I don't think any of us know enough information or even have the right to judge this individual for doing what she did. You know, whether her motives for joining and competing were selfish and poorly considered, etc. As I said, I wouldn't have done what she did, but I respect her right to be private about her transgender identity.

On the other hand, many people in this thread have gone further to make blanket statements about all transgender people, telling them how they are allowed to live their lives, comments which are extremely narrow-minded, negative, and exclusionist (since I'm not allowed to use that T word). So it's clear that the issue is larger than this one instance, and the discussion is really about many things:

Is participating in a gendered competition as a transgender person without telling anyone 'Cheating'
No, it's not cheating. This very accusation of cheating and deception is often used as a defense for abuser, assailants, and murderers of transgender individuals. We have a right to withhold our past and to be who we want to be. It's even harder to call it cheating without even knowing the rules of the competition.

It is, however, ethically treacherous, and only because there has not been sufficient social dialogue on the issue. We as a society need to take up the issue of gender identity and gender identity rights and analyze how our system can protect those rights along with the rights that cis gender/gender conforming people have already.

What constitutes a transgender person?
Transgender people do not need to be on hormones, have surgery, or pass as some kind of stereotype of a gender role to be transgender. Transgenderism is in its broadest sense a dissonance between one's preferred gender expression and the gender he or she was assigned at birth. I think it's probably a good idea at this point in time for transgender people should seek out some kind of expert testimony to their condition for their own protection (ie, it doesn't hurt to have a letter from your doctor saying you are indeed transgender in case someone raises a stink), but ideally one should not need to do this to exercise their inalienable right to trans-gender expression.

What is a sensible and fair way to organize competitive sports while protecting the rights of transgender individuals to be their preferred gender?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think sports should be reformed to be inclusive of all genders and gender non conforming people. Dividing things up along gender lines has a tenuous biological basis. In other words, in some sports, people with higher levels of T from birth might dominate and in some sports people with higher levels of E might dominate. In some sports, people of different racial backgrounds dominate - that doesn't make it OK to segregate sports according to racial lines.

Instead, sports should be gender-neutral and divided between levels of strength, age, etc, similar to the way boxing has different competitive spheres. Would 'men' dominate some sports in this model? Absolutely. Women would dominate others. Women who are standouts such as Serene and Venus Williams would have the opportunity to compete against all people of their caliber, not just 'women'.

Yes, this is radical. But it's the only fair way to include everyone and to reform old, opressive, exclusionist gender structures.

Must we protect the rights of transgender individuals to their privacy regarding their history?
Yes. Transgender individuals have a right to be who they want to be without needing to ask permission at every turn. In the competitive system I proposed earlier, there would be no question of fairness for their participation since transgender individuals would be evenly matched by virtue of their strength, weight, age, etc against cis and trans gender individuals of any type.

I said (in post #108) "So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic?"
--and--
"I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?"

Darn right it's a blanket statement, because it's always true. You may feel more feminine, but you don't become a woman by putting on a wig. And to call it transphobia is nothing more than boo-hoo-I'm-a-victim-why-is-everyone-always-picking-on-me. It's ridiculous.

Lorileah said it best "...and with that I am done with this thread."

and with that I am done with this thread.

With that attitude, good riddance.

Avana, your rantings convince me that you would do well to seek professional help.

This is a belittling statement, and I'm going report it to the moderators, if they haven't already seen it first. No none needs this kind of patronizing, negative talk on this forum, which supposed to be a support forum.

And for your information, next week is my concluding appointment with my gender therapist. You would do well to keep your opinions about professional help to yourself.

[jenniferoonus]

I still (after weeks) hear a lot of gripes and groans..
Geez girls! Someone is obviously reaching out for some support bowling aside!
Myself, I'm still as confused as the rest of you, but hostility will not fix that!

Jen, yes anything on the internet is out there, but at the same time, there is sooo much crap err data that somethings arent easiy found..
Jen and your male persona live in the same locality, perhaps their lives ARE seperate, but the thing that gets me (and i assume others) is going to the shop for milk as male, you would at some point in all these years bump into a lady that bowls with jen.. And despite what you think, when people know each other for a long time, character traits, mannerisms and features become obvious... Those that know Jen would see her even in genetic male form...

"It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time;
you can even fool some of the people all of the time;
but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time."


Lincoln said that, and its true..
I think dear Jen, the people here don't want to be in the fooled category...
And your story is a very big pill to swallow so i guess support does come with a price...

I am not fooling anyone in this board, what I have said is true. I have asked a member of this board to join Jennifer in person to her world just to verify that what I said is true.

[jenniferoonus]

Can we all stop wasting time debating my bowling situation? The 'league' is just a very small get together for fun kind of event, it was not an official league, not event close!!!! So, let's stop debating!

However, just want to reiterate that Jennifer's 2 separate worlds, 100% female and 100% male, is 100% true.