CD vs TG

[CatAttack]

Thanks for the answers all!

A few things.

1) To those who say that we don't need [to define] tags/labels: Without labels and tags, then we would have no point of reference for anything.

2) On the subject of TS "should be" or "are" female: Before posting this OP, I actually thought about the wording of this for a while. I ended up choosing "should be" over "are" because "are" can be confusing because if you "are" already female, then you wouldn't need to transition right?? I understand that this is kind of like mind/matter but I chose "should be" since before transition one isn't exactly female by society's standards right?

3) A bit about myself and what I think about this statement: I identify as TS, and am a transitioning college student. I feel like this statement would be correct on the most part, but since I only have my own experience to judge this by, I really wanted to see what everyone thought about this. There is a middle ground in between that is not really covered by the statement.. and that would be like, I'll call it "CDTS" or something haha. That would be like people who are basically TS, but go only as far as crossdressing due to fears/limitations/circumstance. But yeah, it is really interesting to see everyone's opinions on this.

[AllieSF]

Thanks for the clarification. To help you along based on what I have read, and I have read a lot, and what I believe, is that a TS "is" a woman or man inside, but does not have the corresponding physical attributes. One way to look at the word "transition" would be to see, for example, the MtF TS (women inside) who transitions from living as a male in the world (not out) to living as a full time woman, maybe have GRS/SRS, and maybe other cosmetic surgery to get the outside in line with the inside. Additionally, as has been stated many times in a few informative but contentious recent threads here, it is also can be the "transitioning" from male mannerisms and thought processes to female ones. There is a lot to catch up on and learn for those MtF's who had no prior experience in the feminine side of life. So, the transition can be considered the process to get from the current situation to the correct one. To me that is where the word transsexual comes from, the crossing over, transitioning from one state/gender to another. Though the crossing over phase is not always feasible for all.

I also believe that if one is truly a transsexual, they are what they state that they are, a woman or a man, whether they actually transition or not, and they have been that way from birth. Just because someone decides not to transition does not mean that they are not what they believe that they are. That is where good therapy comes in for those that are not sure.

[Kara Connor]

(snip) Transgenderism is not even close. Transgenderism is the feeling you were born in the wrong body, a feeling strong enough to cause people to undergo years of therapy, hormones, and multiple surgeries to physically change themselves into what they truely believe they are. (snip)

Transgender http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender is generally used as an umbrella term covering the spectrum (as far as MTF people go) kind of like this

Fetishistic Transvestite -> Crossdresser -> TS

I identify as somewhere between CD and TS. It isn't really about the clothes for me (though I love clothes) it is about being able to express my female core identity.

[Katie_in_AK]

Well, I've been "me" for "all my life"...that said, I kinda feel that CD is a "sub-group" of TG, and that TS is a person doing PHYSICAL changes to BE physically female. But then if TG is NOT doing things (i.e. HRT, etc), then exactly what is TG? "Middle ground" between CD and TS? OR is it an "umbrella" as mentioned earlier where under it to the left is CD, and to the right is TS?

Answer me this:
"Katie dresses en femme every chance she gets. She takes care of her body properly and has no hair below her eyebrows! She paints her toes pretty, and shiny clear coat on her fingers. Her ears are pierced and she's letting her hair grow long. She has a LOT of male-mode stress from work and being Kate is like shedding Mr. Me, and letting her hair down to be herself. Katie and Mr. Me really don't feel strongly as one OR the other but totally BOTH (androgyne?). She has no attraction sexually to men or women (except for beauty and clothing envy), but she IS married to a supportive GG. She enjoys role reversal VERY MUCH sexually with her wife. When mentally fantasizing alone, she always is the submissive in a lesbian relationship with her wife, never dominant. Katie wears bra/panties under her boy clothes at work. At home she "poofs up" her hair, throws on some make-up, and goes about her business doing "home stuff". Not "gender biased" chores, just everything. Katie does want her own breasts, but has to just use forms b/c she's not out at work or public, just her wife. She does NOT want SRS."

WHAT IS SHE?

[CatAttack]

Well, I've been "me" for "all my life"...that said, I kinda feel that CD is a "sub-group" of TG, and that TS is a person doing PHYSICAL changes to BE physically female. But then if TG is NOT doing things (i.e. HRT, etc), then exactly what is TG? "Middle ground" between CD and TS? OR is it an "umbrella" as mentioned earlier where under it to the left is CD, and to the right is TS?

Answer me this:
"Katie dresses en femme every chance she gets. She takes care of her body properly and has no hair below her eyebrows! She paints her toes pretty, and shiny clear coat on her fingers. Her ears are pierced and she's letting her hair grow long. She has a LOT of male-mode stress from work and being Kate is like shedding Mr. Me, and letting her hair down to be herself. Katie and Mr. Me really don't feel strongly as one OR the other but totally BOTH (androgyne?). She has no attraction sexually to men or women (except for beauty and clothing envy), but she IS married to a supportive GG. She enjoys role reversal VERY MUCH sexually with her wife. When mentally fantasizing alone, she always is the submissive in a lesbian relationship with her wife, never dominant. Katie wears bra/panties under her boy clothes at work. At home she "poofs up" her hair, throws on some make-up, and goes about her business doing "home stuff". Not "gender biased" chores, just everything. Katie does want her own breasts, but has to just use forms b/c she's not out at work or public, just her wife. She does NOT want SRS."

WHAT IS SHE?

Ha that's a tricky one. We're not like experts here or anything [which is why this thread was started in the first place], so I don't really know.. But there is a subgroup of TS people who do not wish to have SRS but still live as women. Also, there is something called "genderqueer", which I think you might identify more with. It's pretty much like androgyny, where the person who identifies as genderqueer lives/presents themselves as somewhere in between the genders, smashing the gender binary norm. Perhaps you would be interested in looking into that?

[Katie_in_AK]

Hmmm... will have to check that one out. Maybe you're right. Yup, you're right:

WIKI: "Genderqueer (GQ; alternatively non-binary) is a catch-all term for gender identities other than man and woman, thus outside of the gender binary and heteronormativity. People who identify as genderqueer may think of themselves as one or more of the following:
both man and woman
neither man nor woman (genderless, agender)
moving between genders (gender fluid)
third gendered or other-gendered; includes those who do not place a name to their gender
having an overlap of, or blurred lines between, gender identity and sexual orientation.

Some genderqueer people also identify as transgender, and may or may not wish for physical modification or hormones to suit their preferred expression. Many genderqueer people see gender and sex as separable aspects of a person and sometimes identify as a male woman, a female man, or a male/female/intersex genderqueer person."

[Rianna Humble]

Well, I've been "me" for "all my life"...that said, I kinda feel that CD is a "sub-group" of TG, and that TS is a person doing PHYSICAL changes to BE physically female. But then if TG is NOT doing things (i.e. HRT, etc), then exactly what is TG? "Middle ground" between CD and TS? OR is it an "umbrella" as mentioned earlier where under it to the left is CD, and to the right is TS?

The currently accepted definition of Transgender embraces everything from Cross-dresser to Transsexual and all points in between. That is probably correct as they all cross the boundaries of gender behaviour and the prefix "trans" means "across".

Answer me this:
"Katie dresses en femme every chance she gets. She takes care of her body properly and has no hair below her eyebrows! She paints her toes pretty, and shiny clear coat on her fingers. Her ears are pierced and she's letting her hair grow long. She has a LOT of male-mode stress from work and being Kate is like shedding Mr. Me, and letting her hair down to be herself. Katie and Mr. Me really don't feel strongly as one OR the other but totally BOTH (androgyne?). She has no attraction sexually to men or women (except for beauty and clothing envy), but she IS married to a supportive GG. She enjoys role reversal VERY MUCH sexually with her wife. When mentally fantasizing alone, she always is the submissive in a lesbian relationship with her wife, never dominant. Katie wears bra/panties under her boy clothes at work. At home she "poofs up" her hair, throws on some make-up, and goes about her business doing "home stuff". Not "gender biased" chores, just everything. Katie does want her own breasts, but has to just use forms b/c she's not out at work or public, just her wife. She does NOT want SRS."

I am by no means an expert, but I would place you as definitely transgender but would not say that your current state of gender dysphoria places you in the transsexual category. My reasons for saying this are that you are happy with both of your roles (male and female) and you have no strong feelings for one or the other role, neither would you want SRS.

You might be a gender bender, but whether or not you are, there is nothing wrong with that.

WHAT IS SHE?

She is a valuable individual and a welcome member of this community.

[Raynefall]

Transgender http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender is generally used as an umbrella term covering the spectrum (as far as MTF people go) kind of like this

Fetishistic Transvestite -> Crossdresser -> TS

I identify as somewhere between CD and TS. It isn't really about the clothes for me (though I love clothes) it is about being able to express my female core identity.

I am pretty much right there with you. Only I have thought about getting SRS. I lean more towards not getting it done than getting it done. I don't want to lose the male side of me but I thoroughly enjoy my femme side as well. Very confusing but unless I had a lot of money, a supportive GG, quit my job, already had a child, estranged family, not over 30, no friends and a comfortable living situation I would never do it. A lot of factors there that pretty much shoot all chances of SRS down. Lol. That's even if I could go through with it like I said. So I would consider myself on the line between the two but leaning more toward CD.

But this also raises the question. What's the criteria to make that change between being called CD and TS? What is considered "feeling like a woman on the inside"? Just because you have considered SRS does that make you a TS? Or is it only if you are planning to go through with it? There are just so many factors here. Lol.

[Robyn2006]

I only know how I feel and do not want to assume anything regarding anyone else. My own view is that the difference between being TS and the rest of us is the absolute need to be a woman, and as soon as possible. I consider myself to be transgender, by that I mean I would love to be a woman, but the realities of life have made that impossible at least for now, and I can live with that. Cross dressing is what I do, it is not who I am.

Mary said it well. I too feel completely transgendered, but with the life and career choices I made early on, my cast in life is set and I've become happy with my two worlds and have made them mesh well, though I'm often saddened on the life I could have had had I not been so scared when younger, so scared what others would think.

Regarding labels and their taboo by some, I don't know… seems a bit prickly to be offended by the TG, TV, TS, labels. I'm a democrat and proud of it, but that hardly means I agree with all who I've voted for. Likewise, I consider myself TG and am happy with that label. Though I'm hardly disgusted by my body, I love it in fact, though some would lump a transgendered person into that camp. Within all labels, there's a spectrum too, and I think we all understand that.

[Rianna Humble]

What's the criteria to make that change between being called CD and TS? What is considered "feeling like a woman on the inside"?
...
Just because you have considered SRS does that make you a TS? Or is it only if you are planning to go through with it?

Please note that all of my remarks below only concern my own experience and are in no way meant to reflect positively or negatively on anyone else's experience.

I prefer to talk about acute gender dysphoria. It's not just about "feeling like a woman on the inside" whatever that might mean to each person. I agree with the WPATH working group who lay the emphasis on the degree of distress caused by the difference between the sex assigned at birth and the gender identity.

For me, being TS is not about feeling like a woman on the inside, or wanting to be a woman. It is not even about wanting Gender Confirmation Surgery. I have always known that I am a woman. I would desperately have loved to have children but could never father a child, because a woman does not father a child - it made no sense to me. Please note, I have the greatest respect for any TS who was able to fulfil that role, but it couldn't work for me.

I do want to have GRS at the appropriate point in my transition, but that is not what defines why I am transsexual.

What defines me as a transsexual is that the dysphoria became so acute that I was unable to continue to function in the role of a man.

I also know several cross-dressers who have considered whether or not they would ever want SRS/GRS/GCS but who are definitely not TS, so I firmly believe that the consideration of surgery does not define whether you are TS or not.

As I said above this is only based on my personal experience, others may well have come to transition via another path.

[Katie_in_AK]

You gals or so helpful! Love to you all!

[Vanessa Storrs]

As of the last count there were 587,632,489 transgendered people worldwide. (no figures were available from North Korea or Myanmar) Every one of these 587,632,489 people is unique. Each one has a unique set of needs, desires and feelings. While most of us will fit into some general category being transgendered is not a "one size fits all" situation.

[TeaD]

The transexual is happy to reduce their libido for estrogen (physiological difference in the brain structure that causes a craving for estrogen). The crossdresser uses crossdressing to increase their libido. Simple

[Rianna Humble]

The transsexual is happy to reduce their libido for estrogen (physiological difference in the brain structure that causes a craving for estrogen).

The Oestrogen is only a means to an end - it is not what defines a transsexual.

[sissystephanie]

I'm sorry, Stephanie, you are way off base with this idea! I have met and discussed with many cross-dressers who occasionally wish that they were female, but not one of them is transsexual. A transsexual does not "wish that they were female" (or male in the case of our FtM brethren). In fact many of us would give our right arms not to know that we are female but with the wrong body parts. Neither Hormone Therapy nor Gender Confirmation Surgery can make someone a woman, we already are women and the medical procedures are needed to align our body with our gender.
Medical science continuously advances on many fronts. When that happens, the definitions evolve. Your definition of Transvestite is not currently generally accepted in those countries of Western Europe where I can understand the medical texts (i.e. those countries who publish either in French or in English).

Whilst your definition of TS might have been held by some in the medical community back in the days when they wrongly classed it as a mental disease or defect, those practitioners who still stick to the mental defect idea are now generally regarded as cranks.

Rianna, I will have to disagree with you. First of all, unless you were born with female sex parts you are NOT a woman. You are a man medically and physically, and will be until you have the surgery. You may dress and act as a woman, but you know in your heart that you are still a man, although you may not recognize that fact!!! As is every other person who is going through a sexual transition!! Until the transition is completed you are physicallly the sex you were born as!! Further, a Transsexual (MTF) does wish to be a woman!! Until they have actually had the surgery,every single one of them is still the man they were born as!! Of course, I am not talking about the psychological aspects of being a TS, as that is a whole different story.

Secondly, the definitions that I have used are as up to date as any to be found anywhere. The definition of a Transvestite is the one accepted by most knowledgeable medical people throughtout the world. As I said earlier, I have spent many years studying this field!

[Katie_in_AK]

Who came up with THAT number of global transgendered? I haven't been "forced to regisister" with the "authorities".... so they're off by one.

[Rianna Humble]

Secondly, the definitions that I have used are as up to date as any to be found anywhere. The definition of a Transvestite is the one accepted by most knowledgeable medical people throughtout the world. As I said earlier, I have spent many years studying this field!

Can you cite your sources in UK, France, Belgium and Switzerland, please? I am particularly interested in which authority in the UK is more authoritative than the leading specialists in the NHS. If you PM me the French quotes, I will be happy to provide a definitive translation.

[AllieSF]

Stephanie, I have to disagree with you. In my opinion if a person is a true transsexual MtF, then they have been a woman since they were born, even if they need therapy later in life to realize it and clear up any doubt. The operations are only physical transformations to bring the body closer in line with the being and gender inside. The operations do not define anything except for physical transition. Everybody has their definitions and this is the first time I have read yours from anyone after more than 4 years reading almost every new thread here, and reading other sources. I like my definition. You keep yours and I will keep mine. I am agreeing to disagree.

I also do not understand what you mean by,

Of course, I am not talking about the psychological aspects of being a TS, as that is a whole different story.

"Being" means to me "Is". "Appearing as", "Looking like, nor "Acting like" a woman does not make one a woman with or without surgeries. The physical aspects have nothing to do with being. The surgeries, clothes, change in mannerisms, walk, voice, etc. helps one look and act more like one, but they do not make one a woman. They bring the exterior into line with the interior. Yes, they do help remove distractions and conflicts from the mind and emotions by helping to present a congruent picture to themselves and to others.

Definitions used by doctors and therapists are used to bring some type of uniformity and clarity to what they do and their communications among themselves and with others. They are not always the best definitions when you ask the people (TS's) involved. I have never heard a TS say that they are not a man or a woman because they are pre-op. All that I have talked to, no not hundreds, have said that they are and always have been just what they believe that they are, a woman.

As I understand it, you are a CD and not a TS. I would like to hear when our member TS's believe they are a woman, wherever they are in the transition process, pre-op, post-op, whatever.

[noeleena]

Hi.

To be or not to be

To wear clothes wether they be for women or men, i can , tho i only have womens clothes ,designed to fit women . all shapes & size's,

am i a dresser yes i wear clothes, am i a transexual could be or not & that to has no bearing on anything. because im a woman. & where is the male , hes there he's all mixed in with the woman , as theres no separation they are one. & what am i . well does it really matter no because im accepted just for who i am,
Do i need a lable not really ,people see ....ME....& thats what's important.

...noeleena...

[Joanne f]

The more i think about it the more i am beginning to wonder if for me at least i enjoy having a label , yes i am ME but i am a transgendered person and if people label me as a transgender then they will not be labeling me as anything else that i am not which in theory should give me a bit more fluidness in my life to be able to do things as a transgendered person so the sooner i except that label and be proud of it the sooner i may get accepted by society .

[suchacutie]

All this labeling is just fine, I guess, until you run into the large number of us who are very clear that we are comfortable in both of our gender presentations, and this is NOT just about the clothes or makeup or any of the rest of the "trappings". I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, when the transition occurs and Tina emerges from her bedroom, the "he" is left behind. Tina has her own personality, a set of likes and dislikes that boggles the male part of my mind, is annoyingly fastidious, and is even left handed (my male side is right-handed!). My wife often has conversations with Tina covering identical topics to those conversations she has with my male side because she is fascinated that Tina has, often, different opinions. It was my wife that first noticed this to be the case.

Do I need the "trappings" of dress and makeup to "transform"? No, I don't. Is Tina more comfortable in the presence of other people when transformed? Yes! Tina prefers to be the complete package and not confused to the outside world. We like our genders separated, and we need both of us.

So, does that make me partially TS? Do I want to be a woman? Tina sure does! This is one reason why the term "bi-gendered" is appealing to me. Some of us really are carrying around the desire to be both genders. Is it crazy at times? Sure it is, but my wife and I have become rather good at knowing which gender mode we're in .

Now why did I post here at all? I'm trying to point out that transgenderism is a sliding scale with people at every point in the spectrum. There aren't simply extremes into which we all fit. Crossdressers wear clothes of the opposite of their physical sex, and that's all of us. Those who really feel a part of the gender they are presenting have transexual tendencies, short-term or long-term. There really is no way to pin it down better than that, and no reason to as well IMHO.

tina

[sissystephanie]

Can you cite your sources in UK, France, Belgium and Switzerland, please? I am particularly interested in which authority in the UK is more authoritative than the leading specialists in the NHS. If you PM me the French quotes, I will be happy to provide a definitive translation.

I do speak English of course, but not French, Belgium, or Swiss! My most recent information came from the team of doctors (all M.D.'s) who take care of my own various medical problems. They are all top doctors, and of course know that I am a CD!! So I cannot quote any other sources as you suggest, but I would be interested in knowing the sources that you must have!! Have you spoken directly with the leading specialists in the NHS in the U.K.? Having some very good friends in the U.K. and hearing their stories about getting treatment from the NHS, I would take any definitions offered with a large grain of salt!!

I will add that since I live, and sometimes work, here in the U.S.A., I am not really interested in what people in other countries wish to cite as definitions of types of crossdressers or anything else! Actually, I am not interested in labels at all. I am a person, just like you and all the rest of us on this forum! Yes, I do like to wear feminine clothes, so I guess that makes me a crossdresser! So what?? I am still ME, a person!! That is all that counts!! If you wish to consider yourself a woman, than so be it!! You are also a person, and can be whatever you want to be!

Allie, does a baby know what sex it is? I sincerely doubt that they do. If that is the case than how can they be a "true transsexual MTF" since they were born? The baby is born with a definite gender, at least in most cases! If the baby is born with male sex organs and raised as a boy, that child has to make a conscious decision to become a transexual somewhere during growing up!! That certainly would not be considered as coming from birth!! Any MTF TS who says that they were born a female in a male body does really not know much about birth. They are giving a definition that they want to be true!! But it is not, and cannot be!!

Your definition of "being" may be more to the point than the way I used the word. But you also said that all the TS's you have talked to have said that they are and always have been "just what they believe they are", a woman!! I used the quotes because that is what it amounts to!! A belief, nothing more!! Regardless of what they think, until the surgery is performed that body is male, not female!! And yes, I am a CD not a TS. But I do know some TS people!! I will also add that I don't care what you call yourself!! I love most people, and rarely judge others!!

[Rianna Humble]

the definitions that I have used are as up to date as any to be found anywhere. The definition of a Transvestite is the one accepted by most knowledgeable medical people throughtout the world.

A claim later disproven by your own words

since I live, and sometimes work, here in the U.S.A., I am not really interested in what people in other countries wish to cite as definitions

Since you neither know nor care what people in countries other than your own use as definitions, your claim that your definition is accepted by most knowledgeable medical people throughtout the world is at best disingenuous.

Incidentally, one does not have to meet a doctor to read his publications.

[AllieSF]

Stephanie, a baby when born does not know what it is, male, female TG, gay, lesbian, happy nor sad. They are born with a physical body that represents what they appear to be, but not always what they are. That old saying, "Looks can be deceiving" seems to apply very well here. That is why I said in my post above that they (TS's) may need therapy to realize it. I am not talking about physical aspects, but what a person's being/self is. Sometimes it takes work to discover and accept that. Ask gays or lesbians and they will tell you that they only realized that they were that later in life, some fairly young and many a bit older. But, until medical science (i.e. doctor's, psychologists, scientists, etc.) unanimously proves something different, in my belief, they were gay or lesbian from birth, not from external factors after birth. The external factors may help to bring it to the surface sooner, but they do not define these natal true self characteristics. Having something and knowing that you have it are two distinct things. Some know right away and some do not. Some people are mistaken in what they think too. But that does not change in any way who or what they are. Again, that is why counseling is needed to help clarify their "beliefs" and what is the truth as far as being defined. And even counseling can can result in errors. You stated that your recent sources are your top doctors for your own medical problems. Even if they are top doctors in gender related issues such as we are talking about here, they could be wrong in their opinions, just like me. Specialists in the TG area don't even always agree on definitions, causes, treatments, etc.

The understanding of what different definitions and labels are used in other parts of the world should be considered here in serious conversations, because it helps all of us understand and not just dismiss what others have to say, even though they may not be from the USA. We here, like everyone else all over the world, need each others input to totally understand the very complicated transgendered world. What we are talking about is not unique to only the USA.

You keep referring to the body. If I was talking about what body someone had, I would agree with you that someone with a penis has a male body, unless, of course, if they are inter-sexed. But, that male penis does not define what they are inside. We could probably guess and be right most of the time.

And lastly, it is nice to see that we are very similar in many ways. Both are MtF CD's, know some TS's, don't really care what the other person calls themselves(accepting of diversity, as I like to refer to it), love and rarely judge others.

[sweetjan]

I love to crossdress. I do not want to become a female, I simply enjoy wearing female clothes. I support those
who wish to become a female.