It's a bizarre thread to be sure, probably offensive to some (part of me is offended), but it's an honest one. Personally, I'm glad the mods aren't locking this one up.
It's a bizarre thread to be sure, probably offensive to some (part of me is offended), but it's an honest one. Personally, I'm glad the mods aren't locking this one up.
-Sedona
^ hey Pinto, hey BadTranny.
Yes !! LIVE THE DREAM !! Oh yes it would be so great to become a black girl and get my "swag" on. how incredibly different and exciting it would be than living as a placid and dull white male. Can you imagine??
It seems so far out of the realm of reality, but the sheer scope of it all is precisely what makes it so alluring. (I dream big.)
Yes, being a sexy black ballerina would be cool as well, with amazing hips, and my black legs inside of white tights. I would just love to be a black girl and be so sexy and confident as they are.
this is very interesting, although i would settle for just white female as apposed to my white male self.
I need my SN changed to Sienna
Originally Posted by Brett
Wow... white + male privilege guilt much?
Your post is rather prejudiced and filled with stereotypes.
confidence, sexiness, and 'swag', as you say, are not racial in nature.
The main thing that is 'far out of the realm of reality' is your preconception and objectification of black women.
Just out of curiosity, where are you from? What is your main connection to black women? Television? Friends? Neighbors?
You speak about this issue in two contradictory tones - on one hand I can understand identification with another race but on the other hand I see someone who is just looking for an adventure or thrill, reducing the entire collective experience of a race and gender to a stereotypical 'costume'.
Last edited by Avana; 06-18-2011 at 01:04 AM.
^ yes, white-female would be fun as well........ its fun here, at the gender-ethnicity-change thread, for sure.
I used to fantasize much about becoming a beautiful white girl as well, but part of me got burnt out on that theme a bit after years and years, and I began to desire a new twist on the theme so badly. Black girls have alot of overt-feminity as well, and they express themselves so uniquely and beautifully, that it just appeals to me so much.
Black ladies have such a fun fashion that I would love to be able to participate in, with fun tights and colorful clothes. Its so much fun when they get their hair braided and have a close "sistahood." I would love the same and to be accepted into their closeness. I'd love to be accepted as a black lady, and have an amazing figure and gorgeous skin as they have........... to wear cute outfits with great exciting styles.......... that would be so unbelieveably great.
(^ edit to below poster....... yes, I am still "learning" and trying to shed my "privileged" white-male identity. I am sure I am very "far-off," but I'm very acommodating and willing to learn. I admit I've lived sort of a frat-boy lily-white Republican life to date, but I am completely open minded.
Yes, it is something I want to do so badly. I'm sure people can forgive if I have a "poor choice of words," I want terribly to learn, and my admiring of what i perceive of as their culture is an acknowledgement of how great it is and I want to participate.
Also, what is wrong with "confidence, sexiness and swag???........... those are positive attributes!!, not stereotypes")
Nothing at all is wrong with those three things. But you can be all of those without disguising yourself with a stereotypical 'black' costume.
If you are willing to learn, I would strongly suggest you do check out the 'black like me' book posted earlier (there is also a documentary), and also read up on some other race studies material - a good, short read with a silly title is Why Do Black People Love Fried Chicken? And Other Questions You've Wondered But Didn't Dare Ask by Nashieqa Washington
I, too, admire many black women, and I count women such as Grace Jones, Sade, Maya Angelou, Donna Summer, Josephine Baker, Patrice Rushen, Diana Ross, and many more among my influences and pantheon of idols. But it's because they are amazing people (obviously i admire their musical talents).
Last edited by Avana; 06-18-2011 at 01:20 AM.
^ Will do, thank you !!
It will be fun to learn, indeed, and immerse myself in the culture and hopefully learn everything I need to know to become a functional black woman.
I can't help but admit that perhaps, as a black woman, I might indeed be a more "stereotypical" black woman and indulge in all I've mentioned, like getting my hair braided alot. Still, I would definitely be accommodating and want to totally immerse myself in the culture and live seamlessly as a gorgeous woman and not just wear some "silly costume." It will definitely take work and studying on my part, but I would love to do it! As I said, it would be total respect of their culture on my part, and yes, i still have to learn what is and isn't "PC" and a stereotype. It would be cool to have a black girl(s) actually coach me in my transition, train me to be one of them in personality and physical appearance, and help me blend in with them and be one of the girlz.
I would want to fit in totally and be a black girl 24/7, and one that fit in so well as to be indistinguishable. The old me would be totally gone.
I think your honesty will help you mostly, but at times it could put you in danger of offending or hurting others ... so good luck.
^ I'm really hoping actually to shed my remaining inhibitions and perhaps even going ahead with my transition to a black girl. Live the dream and better to assert what you want rather than be timid and deny yourself because ur afraid of stepping on tiptoes, I say. Yep, my honestly may offend a few, but I think it may pay bigger dividends.
Mabye I'll look forward and be able to report my progress in this direction on this thread?
It's definitely an interesting frontier. As a transgender woman I have thought a lot about how my identity relates to my body and various forms of expression, and in thinking about this I have often winded up thinking about a concept of 'trans-race' analogous to 'trans-gender'.
Gender, unlike race, is often (but definitely not always) related to sexual characteristics, which is why many transgender patients undergo treatment to modify their sexual characteristics. There is actually a female hormone and a male hormone to control the development of these characteristics. But there is no 'white hormone' or 'black hormone'.
But race is a far more nebulous and fluid concept than gender, at least at this point in time. Consider that in the previous century, just one distant african relative in an otherwise european pedigree would automatically render you 'black'. Yet now we have people who are half-african, half white (Barack Obama) who are sometimes claimed by Blacks, and other times (vehemently) rejected. We have mixed race people like Vin Diesel (aka Mark Sinclair), who is of mixed race, and who hundreds of years ago would have been undeniably black, yet today rejects black identity and is seen by generally everyone as 'white'.
Some anthropologists dispute the notion of race entirely, since we are so mixed, genetically.
See there are still rigid gender roles in society, but race roles, not as much. You say you want to be 'black' but that doesn't really actually mean much anymore unless you cling to a stereotype. And you aren't going to see a 'Black Clothing' section in a store or a 'White Clothing' section, or any other race section. And we don't segregate our bathrooms, etc.
So the concept of trans-race is troublesome to me because I find it difficult to understand how you can create such a direct transitional relationship from one extraordinary nebulous construct to another, without any actual physiological basis for doing so.
I think it would be fantastic if gender was also so nebulous, but it's much farther behind IMO than race in terms of evolution.
Last edited by Avana; 06-18-2011 at 02:14 AM.
Brett, one thing you've mentioned a few times is getting your hair done in a typically African-American style -- braids, beads, weaves, and all that. It just happens that my nail technician is African-American and works in her sister's hair salon. The sister is a master of black hair and does incredible work with weaves, wigs and extensions. (Tammy doesn't do braids, but she occasionally has a specialist braider come in at a client's request.) I see lots of very pretty ladies in the shop getting amazing hairstyles every time I'm in there.
Here's the thing -- I always go to my nail appointments fully dressed and am well known and accepted around the salon. Tammy is always trying to get me in her chair to put a fancy weave on me. She thinks I'd look good in a typically "black" hair style. I would be totally down with this and would do it in a heartbeat except that I'd have to take it off after a day or two when I go back into "pumpkin" mode for work, and it's a lot of time and expense to just keep it for a short time.
I made the acquaintance of another African-American stylist in town once, and she made almost exactly the same offer to me. These women are just about fighting over me to do something fancy with my hair.
My point with all this is that if you want the hair, just make an appointment at a quality African-American salon and go do it! I'm sure there are a few in every decent-sized city. To be honest, the stylist may want to get to know you and your style a little bit before they would suggest an all-out weave with braids and all, so you may want to start out with something more conservative, but if you seem sane enough and express a sincere interest in what they do, I'm certain you can find someone who will oblige with as wicked a hairstyle as you want.
Your skin tone has little to do with this, and all the black stylists I've met are used to working with all shades of black, brown, red and blonde hair (sometimes several of those at once, in fact!). Black women aren't looked down upon for lightening, coloring and straightening their hair, so there's a tremendous variety in what you can do in an African-American salon. I say, go for it (and send us pictures after you have it done!).
- Diane
Last edited by Diane Smith; 06-18-2011 at 02:12 AM.
Although this kind of thing probably sounds ridiculous to many (especially at the TS end of the spectrum), it is important to remember that some dress purely for fun and/or pleasure and some want to take a change of identity beyond just gender. While it isn't real common, I have known other dressers who desire to dress up as a woman of a different race, a different age (from baby to elderly woman), to being a pregnant woman, and on and on. Again, it is certainly not most folks' cup of tea, and I am certainly not condoning any kind of crude behavior, but many cisgender folks might say the same things about crossdressers for wanting to cross the gender line.
Incidentally, there was an article about this in an old issue of Ladylike Magazine and someone (white) sent in pics of themselves as a black woman. She looked quite convincing and dignified and was not one of those awful racial caricatures that may come to mind.
Last edited by Vickie_CDTV; 06-18-2011 at 02:34 AM.
Also, full disclosure -
my interest in this topic stems from the fact that I have myself felt quite connected to various other cultures in my (short) lifetime, and perhaps even have felt the pangs of racial dysphoria. I think mostly I just didn't like not being able to be whatever I wanted to be.
I am a musician and DJ, and I have a fondness for and intense admiration and collection of musics of all cultures, but especially black music, specifically soul, funk, jazz, underground (black & gay) disco, house, r&b, dub reggae, and techno, all of which were mostly originated by black musicians (though these artists definitely had all sorts of white influences themselves - it is a very tangled web!) I feel a definite emotional and spiritual connection to the soul and rhythmic traditions in Black music, and also the alternative mythologies of afrocentrism and afrofuturism. I read quite a bit about race, especially as it relates to the intersection of art, music, and politics.
My explorations in music and particularly my experience of music and dancing in certain social and cultural circles here in NYC has resulted in my feeling much more comfortable and 'at home' in mixed race or black crowds. It also happens to be the case that I live in a neighborhood that is 85% black (bed stuy brooklyn)
Besides this, my political leanings and marginalized experience as a queer transgender person have led me to empathize and desire solidarity of sorts with other marginalized groups of people, minority races included. Though they don't always empathize with me! LOL. I identify especially with separatist politics, those marginalized groups who celebrate their uniqueness as a strength rather than try to assimilate or accept a dominant culture's designation of weakness.
Yet I don't feel like I should have been born black, as I feel like I should have been born female. And certainly if I did, it would be less meaningful, as there are technically no truly distinctive, definite differences between races.
The other trans-cultural experience I had was I dated a girl from puerto rico for many years when I was younger, and she totally immersed me in her culture. I learned spanish with and for her, visited her extended family many times in puerto rico, and I actually made efforts to make myself appear latin physically. As someone of italian (sicilian) descent, it wasn't much of a stretch, but i was tanning extra to change my skin color, and i adopted several additional hobbies and what not such as lifting weights and listening to latin music, and learning latin dance, as I attempted to immerse myself in her culture. I found myself surrounded by latin friends of all sorts, speaking spanish all the time, and generally expanded my worldview to include this girl's.
And my current girlfriend of 2.5 years is Punjabi, but her family has assimilated to a great degree in western culture, and she does not make much at all of her heritage and as a result I have not felt any such connection to her culture.
All of these experiences combined however, have only inspired me to think beyond race, not to long to embrace any particular one. But I am genetically 'white', and it is important to remember that this makes me part of the dominant culture, whether I like it or not, and so as much as I believe in transcending race, I never forget that I can never truly get past it, and I never should, because to do so would be to deny the trials and tribulations of all of the minority races who have suffered at the hands of the dominant culture, which I find unacceptable.
Last edited by Avana; 06-18-2011 at 02:54 AM.
Great post Avana!
Brett, I love Diane's suggestions about the hair salons. But, it should go without saying that when you go in, be sure to avoid using the expressions "you all," and "all you people" in any context.
Brett, just throwing it out there, as I don't know your relationship status. This is probably a little personal, but a (really accepting, laid back) black girlfriend might be a good thing for you.
-Sedona
Would be fun to have a caring black girl(friend) who could totally coach me, understand me, and facilitate the process of my transition. She could totally coach me on my new peronsality, and tell me what i should and shouldn't say at the hair-braiding parlor, and instruct me on how to completely fit in. She could share with me all of her beauty tips, fashion tips, and get me completely looking and acting like one of the black girls. It would be so great to have such a caring girl or woman in your life who could give you that............. Such a girl(friend) could teach me totally how to be a black girl just like her, from head to toe. When we go out, we could be as 2 black girls, shopping for the latest fashions, and just having a great time as 2 sisters.
I am definitely looking forward to going to the stylist especially. As I said, I would want to be a totally darker-skinned black girl.... not more on the mixed-race end like "Vin Diesel." I would want to be totally convincing, not some "racial-chariacature"........... totally made up and put together in a way that would honor and respect my new ethnicity and gender, and i could fit in totally in a complete way.
I know there isn't a clear cut line between white and black, as the poster said, but my desire is just to be visibly identified as a black girl........ I think most people still just look and say, "that dude is white, he's black, he's asian, he's mixed, etc." I want that to be their new first-impression of me. Mabye a bit on the fetishistic end, I suppose, but that's just how I terribly desire to identify.
That sounds like a horrible reason to start a relationship IMO.
Now it's starting to sound like avatar, the ultimate white guilt fantasy movie.
hello,
in my closet CD world I can be any girl I want to be - Oh it would be nice to be young, gifted and black.
luv, J
On a serious note, if you want to be accepted into the black community, just be yourself.
If you want to learn about the culture, be honest. Do not try to "act black". Just relax. If you have an interest in something specific in the "black" cultural experience,be it fashion, music, food, literature or art, pursue that, learn about it and make friends and be a friend.
White people have become part of the black community, the musician Teena Marie for example. So just be yourself. Otherwise you will come off like "Mrs Garrison" on "South Park".
First I think this thread should not offend or discriminate anybody. In my opinion Brett is appreciating the beauty and elegance of black ladies. It's a matter of personal taste if one likes it or not. There are white men who prefer black ladies or black men who prefer white women etc. and nobody would call these preferences an offense or discrimination of other people, nations or races - it's all just a matter of individual taste. If Brett loves to be woman nobody would call it an offense against men. If it happens to be black lady (whom he seems to adore) - who cares? It's his indidual preference. Besides - its mine too.
So Brett, if it's possible I would like to join your way in order to become a black lady. Just because I share your dreams and thoughts. Maybe it will be possible one day to receive a black skin and a matching face. Then maybe both of us could go out together as two black lady girlfriends.
^ hey Pinto...... yes, I would love to go out one day as 2 totally convincing black girlfriends...... so much fun. Noone would know that the 2 lovely black ladies in tights were once regular white guys...... wouldn't that be something??..... going to the club, to the hair-braiding parlor, clothes shopping at a trendy store, etc etc. wow, such fun !!
i wish you, Pinto, so much luck on your journey, and I hope you can take your fantasy as far as you want and even make it totally a reality. Yes, I realize that the novelty of such we are describing here may be initially "offensve" to some because they haven't seen it before and it drops in their lap like a bomb. But yet, we all come out of the closet. Its no more offensive than intterracial-couples, but instead, interracial crossdressing !! It will be so great........... (yep, we must always tiptoe around "racial" topics, but if it was a black person wanting to become a white person, I doubt anyone would find it somehow terribly "offensive" towards white folks.)
yes Pinto, you can totally join my way, and be completely transformed and made up into becoming a black lady. I'm sure you will look totally beautiful and so exotic. You'll have such fun getting dressed up and getting some "attitude," and building your new personality and sexuality. Good luck Girlfriend !! Mabye you can even pick out your new name for how you will be as a black girl?
Good luck to you too Brett. Maybe there are hidden ways to achieve our goal, who knows...
I prefer the name Fayola. Yes, Fayola would be a good choice. And yours?
^ I would become Tanisha, Fayola. Fayola is a lovely name indeed. you will be such a gorgeous black girl. Yep, it will be such a juxtapose to go from a preppy and pale white-boy to a luscious black lady named Tanisha. I can't wait !! It would be so much fun to go reintroduce myself as Tanisha to all my old acquaintences who knew me as Brett, the bland white guy I used to be! Introduce 'Tanisha' to my old girlfriends and my family....... Yippie!! What fun to go show them my tights, my sexy ebony looks, and my new sassy African-American feminine personality with my urban inflection.
I feel strongly as well, Fayola, with modern medicine, and plastic surgery, good doctors will be able to change us to what we want! Mabye contact a plastic surgeoun with an email inquiry and see his reccommendations?
Good luck, Fayola, please become beautiful and the black woman you were meant to be.
[SIZE="2"](edit question) Also, Fayola, if u don't mind me asking, what is your inspiration for wanting to be a black lady?[/SIZE]
Last edited by Brett; 06-18-2011 at 09:28 PM.
yep, Fayola........... it would be fun to know like what got you feeling strongly about how you wanted to be a black woman in the first place............ what would be your most fun and sexy "coming out outfit" as Fayola?....... how would you like to be dressed as a black lady?.......... What is the sexy hairstyle you'd most like to have?......... so much fun. How do you invision yourself as Fayola? What are some things you would like to do as girlfriends? Its so exciting indeed to plan out such a new exciting lifestyle.
Good question Tanisha. I don't really know how to explain but let me try: First it's the kind of beauty those women inherit. It's a kind of superior beauty and elegance. Then it's (I admit) some exotic flair. It's also their understanding of the role of a woman. In my opinion they are more womanlike then others. They seem to enjoy beeing a woman - yes I know, others will come now and tell it's not true - but these are my expriences. Maybe just aprejudice.
Avana, 99% of me agrees with you. But, there's probably that 1% of black women who might get a kick out of Brett and not get too stressed about it all. If they're attracted to each other, why not? It takes all kinds, right?
-Sedona
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