Something that really ticks me off

[ReineD]

You've read of all these SOs doing all these horrible things. Do you know all the circumstances? All the details? Whether or not there are other issues in the marriage perhaps due to the secrecy? Do you know everyone's backgrounds? Their ages? The dynamics between the couple? Whether or not she has been, or she feels cheated on?

And are you taking into account all the SOs who are willing to work it out? All those who are supportive?

Please. Just walk a mile in their shoes before you make judgments. And stop painting with a broad brush. The issue is more complex than that.

And you be in a relationship with a GG after having misrepresented yourself for awhile, and then post your thoughts.

[jessica renee]

Thank you, Pythos, for saying what has been on my mind for a long time. Also, if society didn't make CDing out to be some sort of perversion, maybe we wouldn't feel like we had to hide.

[Pythos]

ReineD.

Um....your post is an attack, but I don't see what you are attacking. Why are there so many of these responses pointing out my lack of knownledge, and still others basically asking how I can even ask about what I don't fully understand.

That is why I made this post. To get an understanding about this. I have painted no one with a broad brush. I am addressing those SOs that react in what in my eyes is a wholly irrational way. Throwing out someone's belongings, NOT TALKING, is irrational. No improvement will happen if there is no communication.

The SOs that are willing to work things out ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. It is the ones that cannot or will not work things out and do things like threaten divorce.

You also seem to forget, I was in a relationship, where I was open. The reasoning for things not working out had nothing to do with my cding, it had everything to do with a married man with two kids being more appealing. I have come to terms with that. I am a loser. I know this. I am about as attractive as a brown patch of liquid on a sofa. I am fine with this. (those last lines were fully tounge in cheek).

I have said before and I will continue to say. The situation is complex only because it is made more complex than it need be.

Also, no. I do not know of all the circumstances. I am indeed only getting a one sided explanation of what is happening. I would like to have a better understanding, but can only work with what I have seen.

You have seen me get on the case of those that choose to hide from someone they are suposed to love implicitly. I have said many many times hiding does more damage, than help. I have gotten told off for holding that view by some here.

Thank you, Pythos, for saying what has been on my mind for a long time. Also, if society didn't make CDing out to be some sort of perversion, maybe we wouldn't feel like we had to hide

This line says a huge amount in just a few words. This explains very well the reason why so many hide. Even if I don't agree with it, I can certainly understand the rational.

[Stephenie S]

Pythos, you are 100% correct in your complaints. But you are ignoring reality.

Try to put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. You fall for a beautiful girl (just imagine, OK?), you hook up, it gets serious, you enter a committed relationship (marriage), and then you discover she wants to present as a man. WTF? A man? Yup, a man. She wants to pad her shoulders, wear lifts in her shoes, pad her crotch area to resemble a male organ, cut her beautiful hair or wear a male wig, wear a suit and tie, darken her face to resemble a beard, spit and fart and tell dirty jokes. AND she wants you to help her dress up, go out to clubs, and then have sex with you while she is dressed like a guy.

OK, are you ready for this? Might you have some reservations? After all, you should love her for what she is. Why might you have some questions? Why might you ask that she only does this at home? Why might you say only once a month? Do you know how much a nice men's suit costs? She wants several of them. This is gonna cost some serious dough. I think there are many guys here on this forum who would consider this behavior on the part of their SO a deal breaker.

All I am trying to say is that this is not such a cut and dried situation as you seem to think. Yes. People should be able to wear what they want. Yes, people should be able to present in whatever gender they wish. But that ignores thousands of years of conditioning of just what male and female behavior has taught us.

And it ignores some real and perhaps imagined fears on the part of the woman in this relationship.

Jes' sayin',

Stephie

[Pythos]

LOL, you know, if my "girl" wanted to present as a male, I would have little issue knowing that the girl I love is still there. The big question is if she would balk at my wanting to present as a female. Now if she did, then she would be a hypocrite, and that to me would be a deal killer.

What you present Stepenie is a very extreme example, but I see what you tried.

[ReineD]

When you go to SCC this year sit in the lounge downstairs. Watch all the tranny chasers and the trans people. Sit there for a while and you will see them going to the elevators and comming back later.

Kate, what is the percentage of the people you see going up to their rooms with guys, compared to the total registration? Maybe 10%? And how many of those are gay or single? I agree with Doc and I think you are overstating.

There may well be some married CDs who do this and it is likely these are the CDs who find themselves with their clothes strewn all over the lawn. But, what about all the CDs who are there with their wives's blessings? All the CDs who dress without wanting to have sex with men?




Pythos. My post is not an attack. It is a clear dose of reality. Sorry you don't like to read it. And your OP most definitely came off as a broad brush statement. Read it again and take particular note of your use of the word "irrational", without at all knowing the particulars of any given situation.

And also, stop stereotyping.

[Katesback]

I did not say all. I said many. And yes MANY do do all sorts of things they dont do when they are presenting as a boy.

Kate, what is the percentage of the people you see going up to their rooms with guys, compared to the total registration? Maybe 10%? And how many of those are gay or single? I agree with Doc and I think you are overstating.

There may well be some married CDs who do this and it is likely these are the CDs who find themselves with their clothes strewn all over the lawn. But, what about all the CDs who are there with their wives's blessings? All the CDs who dress without wanting to have sex with men?




Pythos. My post is not an attack. It is a clear dose of reality. Sorry you don't like to read it. And your OP most definitely came off as a broad brush statement.

[sara_s26]

Even though I like to think of myself as a very understanding and loving SO..I can see where people in other situations would be very angry and upset about the lying and sneaking that often goes along with crossdressing. I was with my boyfriend for a year before he told me what was going on and I find myself struggling with trusting him from time to time. I can't imagine what it must be like for someone married many years. So do I understand the anger? Yes. Do I understand not being able to accept that your boyfriend/husband is someone other than who you thought they were? Yes. However, being ugly about it..fighting..throwing insults and being hateful is not something I could ever bring myself to be part of. Hell, my ex husband cheated and I left him and even then I didn't bring myself to that level.

[Fundy]

LOL, you know, if my "girl" wanted to present as a male, I would have little issue knowing that the girl I love is still there.

Be careful. Before experiencing my current reality, I would have said the same. It's often hard to know how we will react until we are in the moment. I love my husband and I am working hard to support him and at the same time acknowledge my own boundaries. You also mention the irrationality of the reaction. YES! The shock I have had is that in my rational being, I have absolutely no problem with this. My negative reactions aren't rational, they're emotional and yet still valid.

[kimdl93]

Wow, Pythos, you're on a roll today I actually agree with you on several points. There's NOTHING wrong with cross dressing. Its not a crime, we hurt no one. Even if every worst fear of an SO was realized, i.e., my husband is gay, he wants to be a woman, all our friends found out and reject us, etc, etc, etc. the consequences are survivable - it isn't terminal I also understand that a woman can be shocked and dismayed at the discovery that her spouse is a CD. And I understand that for certain people, CDing and all transgender manifestations are in some way morally abhorent.

And I agree that, no matter how shocking, no matter how much fear or apprehension such a discovery may cause, it doesn't justify anyone mistreating their spouse. The problem is that many, if not most married couples have never really learned to communicate humanely. Human couples tend to square off immediately, establish rigid positions and abhor reasonable compromises. Evidence - 50+% of first marriages fail and 75% of second and third marriages fail. We're just not that good at caring for our relationships.

The problem for a CDr who didn't tell before they were married is that they face the combined challenges of explaining themselves and thier preferences and doing it with fearful and defensive SO. That takes more skill than most of us can muster.

[Karren H]

Wow, First Karren why did you call yourself a Pervert? Do you really think that? I hope not.

At the time I should have told my wife the truth... Yes... I thought that... Its why I didn't tell... And for many years following I still thought that.... till I came to grips with who I am... So now I can call myself a pervert.... Affectionately.... More like a recovering pervert! Lol.

[Nigella]

Wow, Pythos, you're on a roll today ... I actually agree with you on several points. There's NOTHING wrong with cross dressing. Its not a crime, we hurt no one. Even if every worst fear of an SO was realized, i.e., my husband is gay, he wants to be a woman, all our friends found out and reject us, etc, etc, etc. the consequences are survivable - it isn't terminal ...

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Lets see

There's NOTHING wrong with cross dressing. Its not a crime, we hurt no one. Even if every worst fear of mine was realized, i.e., my family won't understand, I want to be a woman, all my friends found out and reject me, my work mates will laugh at me etc, etc, etc. the consequences are survivable - it isn't terminal.

Anyone see a parallel here ?

[kimdl93]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Lets see

There's NOTHING wrong with cross dressing. Its not a crime, we hurt no one. Even if every worst fear of mine was realized, i.e., my family won't understand, I want to be a woman, all my friends found out and reject me, my work mates will laugh at me etc, etc, etc. the consequences are survivable - it isn't terminal.

Anyone see a parallel here ?

Yes, bad things can happen if certain people learn that one is a cross dresser. Here in Texas, bad things can also happen, socially and professionally if certain people find out that one is a liberal. Friends and family may ostracize a person for a variety of reasons - none of which are criminal. As the expression goes - bad things can and often do happen to good people.

But that wasn't really my point, was it. One point was that nothing intrinsic to cross dressing justifies abusive treatment by a spouse. And my second point was that, people often handle interpersonal disputes in destructive and hurtful ways.

[ReineD]

We are talking about two completely different things in this thread, and one does not contradict the other.

1. There is nothing wrong with CDing. This is true.

2. Some wives are not OK with it. This is also true. But, is it strictly the CDing they are against?


Back to (1). There is nothing wrong with the CDing, providing there is openness and honesty in the relationship. And compromise. And balance. Providing it wasn't hidden for years. Providing the husband doesn't get lost in the fantasy of cyber sex, even if he would never do it with a guy in person. Providing he doesn't go overboard in a pink fog and get mad at his wife because it will take her awhile to learn about this and understand. Providing she doesn't keep finding profile pages on internet sites when she has no clue what it all means. Providing he's not springing this on her, at the age of 50, 55, 60, 65, or 70, when she was raised with the belief that it is morally wrong to do this.

(2) The wife is NOT to be called "irrational" if she encounters the situations above. When CDs post here about their wives not wanting to know anything about the CDing, are they telling all? Do their wives fit in any of the scenarios above? If so, they are certainly not irrational.

Show me a young CDer who shares this with his SO right off the bat, and show me when does she take all his clothes and strew them across the lawn. Show me a CDer in his 40s who doesn't already have a well-developed femme persona with tons of friends, dozens or hundreds of secret outings under his belt, plus other issues in his marriage due to all this secrecy, and prove to me that his wife won't be willing to talk to him about this.

If there are a handful of women who do react violently and threaten ruin such as Pythos suggests, then they are in the minority and their behavior shouldn't be considered "the norm" such as was presented in the OP. And again, how old are these women? How long have they been married without having any clue about this? What are their religious beliefs? And why are these women not allowed to reject the CDing, when it obviously took their husbands 20, 30, or 40 years to accept it enough within themselves to even tell their wives?

The whole premise in this thread is BS, and yes, I am impatient reading about fictitious, one-sided scenarios.

[Shelly Preston]

For the umpteenth time I have read of one of our crew having to deal with a SO of some capacity acting for all intents and purposes like a tyrant.

I want to know why this is still happening. I want to know why members of our group keep folding to tyranical actions by these S.O.s.

I have read of these SOs throwing out a person's belongings, threatening divorce, NOT TALKING (a really stupid move) and so on.

I have also read of them members here for all intents and purposes FOLDING to this behavior. Why? Why do you fold when the person acting like this is supposedly someone that loves you through and through.

In the case of jobs and family members I can understand, though I think bucking that trend is a good idea, sometimes it just won't work. Which majorly sucks.

But when it comes to someone that you love with all your heart, and they should do the same, I don't understand the justification for the SO's irrational behavior.

Why is CDing so damned wrong? How in all reality does it really hurt a person? The only area of hurt is when someone starts insulting, and belittling.

I find it very ironic how there are marriages where the husband can be completely open about his affairs, or can beat the hell out of his wife, or completely control his wife's life, but by god, a person wants to wear styles that our stupid society has "assigned" to one gender, and that is grounds for divorce.

For crying out loud!!!

Women, do you not realize when you put a man down for wearing women's clothing you are in fact putting yourself down? You are reinforcing the notion that women are less than men. How? Because when you put a man down for wearing stuff that makes him look like a woman, you are implying that he is "lowering" himself to the level of a woman. Think about that.

In my opinion this is an outdated, and really messed up way to live life. Start loving the person for who they are, not what they are. Stop falling in love with the "man", and love the person or soul that resides in that "man" (the same go for us guys and "women")

I have to say in every relationship there will be things that will cause the relationship to break up
The one we hear most about is crossdressing for obvious reasons. We also cant make anyone accept our crossdressing. Just because we are not doing anything wrong it does not mean everyone will understand.

Some SO's will not be happy and choose to ask their partner to leave. This is not new we know this which is why how you tell your partner can be crucial.
Are they justified in doing this I would have to yes. In some cases the deceit and betrayal was over a lot of years

I am afraid this is not utopia and unconditional acceptance is not a right

[LilSissyStevie]

Let's forget all this gender related crap and look at a different example. Let's say you married a nice atheist girl and one day your wife comes home and invites you to her baptism at the local Southern Baptist church. WTF!!! You didn't sign up for this! It turns out that she had vague doubts about her atheist convictions even before you met her but never shared them with you because she was afraid you wouldn't understand and didn't want to alienate you unnecessarily. Now this is going to change your whole life together. All your prejudices, true or not, about Southern Baptists flood your mind. No more dancing! No card playing! Sex for procreation only! No make-up, alcohol, movies or Jazz! (all true when my mother was young, SB's have gone over to the devil since then.) So, what do you do?

You could throw fits and demand she burn her bible and stop associating with Christians. Or, you could have a “don't ask, don't tell” arrangement where she goes about her religious activities but you never talk about it. You could argue endlessly without resolution. You could go to church with her just to humor her even though you don't believe any of that stuff. You could convert. You could go to counseling (religious or secular?) or you could go your separate ways.

It could be something else like you married a radical libertarian and you find out your SO has secretly gone over to the demublicans or the repubicrats and now wants to hang portraits of Hillary Rumsfeld or President Bushbama in the living room. Oh, the humanity!

People change. I am no longer the person my wife married 16 years ago and she isn't the woman I married either. Not only do people change, but they aren't always who we thought they were. We aren't always who we think we are. But I don't try to change my wife or try to keep her from changing. I don't insist she be who I thought she was. I just ask myself, “In spite of everything, do I still want to be here?” She must ask herself the same thing and as long as both of us answer “yes” then the relationship can move forward. The day either one of us doesn't want to continue, it's over. Yeah, there will be grief, anger, regrets and blame but it will pass and I signed up for that possibility when I said, “I do.”

[ReineD]

I did not say all. I said many. And yes MANY do do all sorts of things they dont do when they are presenting as a boy.

Go back to my post #31 and read your words that I've quoted. You did say "all". And please stop taking your observations of the few and make it sound as if everyone or most everyone else does this.

[Amanda22]

People change. I am no longer the person my wife married 16 years ago and she isn't the woman I married either. Not only do people change, but they aren't always who we thought they were. We aren't always who we think we are. But I don't try to change my wife or try to keep her from changing. I don't insist she be who I thought she was. I just ask myself, “In spite of everything, do I still want to be here?” She must ask herself the same thing and as long as both of us answer “yes” then the relationship can move forward. The day either one of us doesn't want to continue, it's over. Yeah, there will be grief, anger, regrets and blame but it will pass and I signed up for that possibility when I said, “I do.”

I love this. So very true. I think we often fall into thinking that there's a rule that should apply to all. Everyone is different, so for some crossdressing is a deal breaker and for others it's not a big deal. This really might be a topic that can only be "answered" one relationship at a time, and that "answer" isn't always going to be the same in every relationship. We grasp for absolutes yet life isn't like that.

[RADER]

PV 101. Theory and Fundamental....
PV 102... What not supposed to wear......

I had enough extra credits to get a second degree!

Hay!!! That is great; I wish I could get some extra credits.
The only class I found at my community Collage was a degree in looking out the window,
It gave you a minor as a Weather Man. LOL
Rader

[Pythos]

The whole premise in this thread is BS, and yes, I am impatient reading about fictitious, one-sided scenarios.

I am curious. What is BS about the premise of this thread?

[Marissa]

That is why I made this post. To get an understanding about this.

I did not say all. I said many. And yes MANY do do all sorts of things they dont do when they are presenting as a boy.

Kate, for the most part, I agreed with your initial post for this thread of how an SO may react and justly so.. I give you that.. we or an SO does not sign up for this.. just as if a male marries a woman who is a part time hooker or a drug user or anything else that may not be agreable to the other when they said "I do". Anything under false pretense is open to reaction..positive and negative..

But..would you still see the same as this ongoing 'hookups' if it was a 'normal' convention? would you sit in the bar and watch strangers part ways together to the 13th floor for sex or whatever? even with wedding bands intact. Or is it that you see this because that is what you want to see.. We are adults..and if having an encounter is what we want, then ok..I don't condone a stray from marriage or relationship..but for those single or open relationships..nothing wrong.. even if its the 10 couples in one elevator

Pythos. "to get an understanding.."..sorry, but right out the gate you have made your stance and how it upsets you for the reaction an SO takes... that is not one who is open to discussion..that is one who has their opinion and a strong one at that.. but its your right.. just as its a right of a MARRIED SO to take their stance.

Reality..please..this is life..not fantasy land.. what if you married a woman who waited five years to tell you she was a member of the KKK???? Will you open a bottle of your best shampagne and say "thanks, honey, for telling me..now we can live life even closer"...

It was a secret that was kept from the other.. if you need another example..how about a sexual non-curable diseasse..sorry, honey, i thought I could keep it under control..

Please understand that people do get upset and will react when they find out how they were tricked, cheated, or lied too..

Some..want a MAN..nothing, nothing less.. okay..a man in their own vision..ok..

[ReineD]

I am curious. What is BS about the premise of this thread?

This, when you have absolutely no clue as to what really goes on in these marriages, or how many women actually act like this:

having to deal with a SO of some capacity acting for all intents and purposes like a tyrant.

members of our group keep folding to tyranical actions by these S.O.s.

I have read of these SOs throwing out a person's belongings, threatening divorce, NOT TALKING (a really stupid move) and so on.

I don't understand the justification for the SO's irrational behavior.

It is a thread to get to the heart of the matter and that is the irrational behavior.

And this, by assuming that women who have issues with the CDing, again assuming it is just about the clothes, would put up with affairs and spousal abuse. This is an insult:

I find it very ironic how there are marriages where the husband can be completely open about his affairs, or can beat the hell out of his wife, or completely control his wife's life, but by god, a person wants to wear styles that our stupid society has "assigned" to one gender, and that is grounds for divorce.

And this, again assuming that when a woman objects to the CDing, it is only about the "clothes":

Why is CDing so damned wrong? How in all reality does it really hurt a person?

Women, do you not realize when you put a man down for wearing women's clothing you are in fact putting yourself down?

And this, by assuming the women who have issues are all young enough to not be "outdated". What about the women approaching their 60s, or 70s?

In my opinion this is an outdated, and really messed up way to live life.

Your thread is BS because you insist on remembering only the threads that suit your purpose, and again, after having read only one side from the CDer. You persist in ignoring the countless threads from the GGs in Loved Ones and in the M2F, and the "If We GGs Could Say Anything" sticky in the M2F, who say precisely what bothers them about the CDing. And it's not just about the clothes!

And you're completely ignoring all the supportive GGs who are here, who do post, and all the threads from the CDs who are married to supportive wives! So you make a big stink about some women who are having a hard time with this, for reasons that you understand nothing of? Please.

You've been here long enough, Pythos, to have gotten a better handle on this. I'm impatient because your thread is just so biased, it isn't even funny. And you've never even been in the married situation that you're complaining about!

[Maria 60]

I totally believe if the relationship is strong and has a lot of communication it can absorb anything. The problem is men are not the communicating type, and i believe the relationship must have not been strong for a woman to put her husband down to begin with. I'am not saying i have a perfect marriage but no matter what we try to do we both support each other. This is my opinion witch may not mean much.

[Marissa]

Thanks Reine for keeping a bit of reality check in this thread and the topic..

[Pythos]

what if you married a woman who waited five years to tell you she was a member of the KKK???

WEll hell, why not ask me how I would react if my Austrian bride turned out to be the long lost love child or Eva and Hitler? And despite all her saying she was not one, did in fact turn out to be a full fledged Nazi?

Wow you actually comapared being a CD and hiding the fact due to public shame that is wrong, to being a KKK member, something that most members proudly display?

Oh great maker.