Closeted Crossdressers Lack "GUTS" and a "SACK." Or do We?

[carhill2mn]

Everybody knows in this forum that I am not in the closet and if you don't know, well then you need to catch up...LOL!!!

I personally believe with and agree with the original poster. It takes a whole lot of guts to stay in the closet and the fact that life is good in the closet is all that matters. As long as they are happy, then that is also all that matters. For some, happiness is the reason we do what we do and to complicate that, why should we. I personally find happiness being with friends outside, enjoying myself while dressed and that makes me happy. So, if your happy being in the closet, then good for you and congrats having a SO who accepts you and allows you to be who you want to be at home. Plus, good on you for not be self-centered to threaten all that you have in your life.

For those who push others to be out, then shame on you. If I recall and remember the first time and reasons why I was in the closet prior to getting out, they were the same reasons as the OP. Don't push anyone, don't force anyone, don't ridicule anyone, because Karma is a big betch and that ridicule will come back to you 10 fold. Not only that, you have to look at how you are presenting our community. If you go out in very short mini-skirt wearing high hooker heels and being very obnoxious, even I will ridicule you because you are making us look like crap. I would rather you try to look your best and feminine, then look trashy as some girls do. Those trashy girls or CDs that are out of the closet are the worst and need to be put back in the closet. Just my 2 cents.

OP, good on you for what you have stated. Keep being strong.

Hi Ediosa,

Thank you for posting a very reasonable and understanding post!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

framing is a good example of what's going on in all these competing threads. Add to the mix the deeply felt emotional nature of all kinds of tgism and we have this whole back and forth..

nobody likes being told they are wimps....

the vast majority of this group is very live and let live and i bet lots of people are totally happy dressing in their spare time, and even just putting on panties or a skirt and hanging out here chatting...how anyone can have an issue with that is beyond me...

if you like going out, and want to encourage people to join you, attacking people is a pretty bizarre way to do it...

[suzy1]

How sad that a wonderful site like this can have among its members a few that can not even try to understand members like Anne and me.
I have held back and just read the replies as they have been posted before replying my self.
I think the best way to react Anne is to just let it go and go on enjoying your closet as I do.
The small minority that can not, or will not except us [especially the insulting ones] are just not worth bothering with.



SUZY

[Jocelyn Quivers]

Have you considered that these dress codes may be illegal? If women are allowed to wear earrings and long hair, then the same must be allowed for men otherwise it is considered discrimination.

I choose on my own free will to work for my employer. I guess I look at employment in a different manner. My employer gives me the means to pay my bills, live a comfortable life etc. I as the employee do not have the right to tell my employer how I should be allowed to dress. I as the applicant to my employer knew full well the dress code for my employer when I applied for that job, and decided to still seek employment. I could slip suggestions in the employee suggestion box if I like, but in the end, If I don't like or agree with my employers dress code, I will just resign and find employer that does allow me to dress in whatever manner I want.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Anne,
Good things come to those who wait. Everybody comes out in their own time. It is not for others to dictate the duration of time in which someone else remains in the shadows. That is a personal choice. Their reasons, whatever they may be, are just and valid for them. We must and do respect them.

[TGMarla]

Blaming closeted crossdressers for both creating and continuing the negative stereotypes we all encounter on a daily basis in society is, of course, ridiculous. That's like blaming continuing racism on those who don't engage in mixed marriages. Of course, if everyone did so, all children would then be of mixed racial heritage, and eventually racism would diminish and disappear. So if one really hates racism, one would actively seek out partners in other races in order to eradicate the problem.

Sure, if every crossdresser threw all caution to the wind and just opted to out themselves to everyone, the rest of the world would have to take notice, and even begrudgingly accept us. But if idealism really cured the wounds of the world, we'd have no problems to deal with anywhere. But prejudice cannot be cured without gradual change. It took a long time with racism (which isn't cured yet), the gay community (which isn't cured yet), and it will take a long time for the transgendered.

So all you militant crossdressers who are out there beating the drum for the rest of our community, thank you for all you do. I'm glad that your circumstances allow for you to do what you do. For most of us, this cannot happen without causing great pain to us and our loved ones. Look at TxKimberly.....she admitted that her wife lost friends over this. My own wife is not supportive of my crossdressing activities. I do not force her to accept it, either, since she knew nothing of it when I married her. She has accepted that I do it, but she wants no part of it. So out of respect for her, I keep it away from her. This means that except for a few limited opportunities, I don't go out much. When I have, I have encountered no adverse experiences. But unless she is out of town, or I have something I wish to accomplish on any given Saturday, I stay home. There are a lot of things I need to get done that do not mix well with crossdressing, so I limit my trans activities to a few hours at a time, and get on with living the rest of my life.

I think this holds true for most of us. Sure, for some of us this is an entire lifestyle. But for the vast majority of us, this is a diversion, a hobby, an activity, or something that we feel that we need to do, but have to give it limits, lest it rule our lives. So it's part-time at best, and scheduling outings are limited to when opportunity allows.

Some of us pass quite well. Some of us look like truck drivers. It is patently wrong for some of us to demand that those of us who absolutely will never be mistaken for women at even the most casual glances to head out into the world and become gender warriors. The same goes for those of us who have extenuating circumstances, friends, neighbors, and loved ones to deal with. Some of us place the whims and wishes of our loved ones before ourselves, and that matters a great deal to me.

[Tara D. Rose]

[QUOTE=
Some of us pass quite well. Some of us look like truck drivers. .[/QUOTE]

I agree with all that you said in your post. I want us all to live and let live without pushing eachother around. But I just wanted to make a quick joke in your words here, be careful let's not steriotype truckdrivers. What does our typical turck driver look like?
Love & Respect................Tara

[ReineD]

Some of us pass quite well. Some of us look like truck drivers. It is patently wrong for some of us to demand that those of us who absolutely will never be mistaken for women at even the most casual glances to head out into the world and become gender warriors.

That's a great point!

Also, who is to know the motives of someone who likes to go out in hot pants and painted nails, but otherwise is in guy mode? Is this being "out", or is it just expressing his individuality, similar to going out as goth? I mean, would John Q public see a guy wearing short shorts and pretty sandals think he is a CDer presenting as a woman? Or would he take this individual to be someone who is "gay and proud", or just someone who has odd tastes in clothes?

[Kaitlyn26]

I agree with all that you said in your post. I want us all to live and let live without pushing eachother around. But I just wanted to make a quick joke in your words here, be careful let's not steriotype truckdrivers. What does our typical turck driver look like?
Love & Respect................Tara

They come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and genders. To state the obvious.

[Duana]

So if you don't pass, you shouldn't go out? Oops! I missed that rule in the CD manual.

Since this thread is based on my original remarks i will say again.

I never said you should be forced out of the closet. I said you are in their because of fear. You may call it a choice and it is but it is a choice made by fear of consequences for you and/or your loved ones. That's fine. I understand it.

So please, stay in your closet if you like it that way. I'm not militant or revolutionary. I'm too busy having fun in the real world to lead a revolution.

[TGMarla]

Well, yeah Tara....I kinda thought about that when I said it. And some truck drivers are women to begin with.....It's a colloquialism, nothing more. I'm glad you took it in a kind spirit. Duana....I never said that if you don't pass, you shouldn't go out. I said it is wrong to force someone out, especially if they don't pass, or have other very valid reasons for remaining private. And it's wrong to tell such persons, no matter their reasons for staying private, that they are responsible for creating and perpetuating (your very words in a different tense) the situation they lament.

I'm very glad for you that you are having such a wonderful time bringing your crossdressing out into the world. You are living the dream, girlfriend, the life we all wish we could live while enjoying our crossdressing. It's a shame that more of us are not in a situation where that is reasonable and feasable. Duana...there is another thread addressing this new proposed television show where men feel forced to masquerade as women in order to get jobs. Most of the postings there agree that these guys don't look like women. They don't pass. Any dullard (except, of course, the other women on the show) can tell that they're men in drag. So should men who choose to crossdress, yet still stick out like tall corn in a pea field, be told that by staying out of the public eye, that they are creating and reinforcing the negative stereotypes that continue to attach themselves to crossdressing? If they want to go out, then I think we all would encourage them and applaud their bravery. But I think it's perfectly understandable if they decide that they do not want to be mocked, insulted, laughed at, picked on, derided, beat up, sneered at, ostracized, belittled, and prejudiced, that they be given the leeway, especially from the rest of us, to remain private and left alone.

[kristinacd55]

I agree with all that you said in your post. I want us all to live and let live without pushing eachother around. But I just wanted to make a quick joke in your words here, be careful let's not steriotype truckdrivers. What does our typical turck driver look like?
Love & Respect................Tara

That's funny because one of my best girlfriends happens to be...............ta da! a truck driver!!! And she's ok by me!

[Anne2345]

Upon reflection, I have removed the post I previously directed at Duana within this space. Not because I believe anything I conveyed to her was inaccurate or undeserved, but rather because I now recognize, after calming down, that I allowed myself to be sucked into a no-win, petty argument with a member bent on attack regardless of the facts. In this, I regretfully lowered my otherwise high standard of conduct in my response to this particular member.

Regardless, all who know me here know that I support all members within the transgendered community. It is a beautiful, loving, caring community (for the most part), and one in which I am extremely proud to be a member of.

Last, in Duana's post that follows this post, she has quoted me from the post that I have removed. In the event you read such post, do keep in mind that these quotes are the very statements I have deleted herein.

Thanks!

Anne

[Melody Moore]

The bottom-line is there is usually some type of fear or reservations that hold closeted cross-dressers back. But there is
no shame in being fearful as it is a perfectly normal emotion. I am the first to admit that it was fear that held me back.

No-one has said (especially me) that you MUST come out of the closet - if that is what you must do in order to be happy,
that is fine. However for me personally, I couldn't be happy living the way that I was previously & I was one of the MANY
people here who found true peace-of-mind, happiness & freedom by coming out. No-one has said that coming out will be
easy, it isn't all rainbows, unicorns & butterfly like some might imagine it is. Coming out is extremely hard for most people.
It takes a hell of a lot of intestinal fortitude, guts or balls to come out, but it takes even more of the same to go to the
next step and fully transition. But having said that we don't go through this to look tough, we come out because we simply
cannot continue to live our lives as anything else other than as our true selves.

I just wonder if the closeted CDing community can ever be learn to be honest enough
to at least admit the truth about why the do really hide themselves away in the closet.

PS: I am off to see my pyschologist in about an hour or so. So I am going to ask her some questions
about this topic this morning, just to get some feedback from a professional who works in a gender
clinic dealing with these types of issues - so I will be sure to post my feedback later on today

[Schatten Lupus]

For every valid reason someone steps out of the closet, there is an equally valid reason for someone to not come out of the closet. Coming out as being a part of the transgender spectrum, especially on any part of the MtF side, is to be expected to be met with much, including up to fatal, opposition. Some people have the option to start a new life ina more friendly environment, but for even more coming out means losing everything. Some will be fired, some will lose their homes, their significant other, their kids, friends, some will be beaten and hospitalized, and some will be killed. Some live openly to be themselves, some live in denial in fear of eternal damnation.
It comes down to weighing out your options, and picking the option that is best for your own situation. Yes some members here go out and nothing eventful happens, unfortunately many CD's and TS's never make it back home (if they have a home to go back to that is), but rather they are sent to a funeral home.
A judge is only as human as you or I, and many of them have prejudice against certain groups. And in many places discrimination against gender identity is legal.
Actually if you are perfectly content living in the closest, then anyone who is sane will say that is the best option. If you are happy, and in a position that furthers you from potential harm and danger, then why give it up? If you are unhappy and ready to deal with whatever obstacles you will face, then why not come out?
But it is only up to each individual. For some the consequences of coming out are not worth benefits of coming out.

[PetiteTonya]

There are times that I wish I had never ventured out of the closet. My wife has now lost at least two friends that she attributes to me. In addition she tells me that she is reluctant to make new friends because of what I am. The rational part of me knows that she is using me as an excuse, but still, I sometimes wish that I hadn't given her the excuse.
For about a year I was a manager at my company - right up until the wrong person found out about me and made it a point to tell everyone to include our director. Less than a month later I was told that they needed my skills more as an engineer than as a manager, and I was pretty much given the choice - go back to being an engineer or go unemployed. The good news is that I hated being a manager anyway, but still . . .
My (almost) eight year old daughter knows about me. So far it hasn't complicated her life, but who knows what will happen later.

There are MANY days when I wish I had kept my mouth shut, kept my head down, and lived a "normal" life. Lived a life where I hadn't complicated my career, hadn't made my wife's life harder, and didn't risk serious complications to my daughters social life. If your instincts tell you that you should stay in the closet, then do what your guts and your heart tell you to do, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. In the end it is you and your family that make these choices and that live with the consequences.

Gawd...I just had to respond Kimberly


Three years ago was the first time I actually transformed completely and on that very same night, ventured out in public. At first I thought it was harmless "fun' but soon realized it was much more than that. I realized quickly that this was an integral part of me and I could no longer stifle it. I'll not go into that as I have earlier posts if anyone wishes to know more about my history.

So the "closet" has never been part of my TG life. I was out in public from the very beginning and have stayed out since. Now certain folk may wish to deem this to be courageous and those activists who reside under the TG umbrella would likely applaud but I live two lives. I do not dare come out at work because as Kimberly has so eloquently mentioned, there are consequences. In my case, they would be much more catastrophic. Having control of ones' privacy is a luxury the "public" TG loses once she walks out the door.

I shave my legs and have no body hair now. I have grown my nails and I pluck my eyebrows. Some members of my family think I'm gay. Some others think I'm a "freak" My wife told me she married a man, and not a TG female and as much as she accepted all of this, she couldn't bear the harsh scrutiny and humiliation that tends to randomly rear it's ugly head when you often least expect it, and so we are now divorced. My boss even flew down to "see if I was ok" because he had heard I was "not looking well"

I live my life as a TG female most of the time now.I cannot have friends over to my house because to do so, would change everything between us. My family members cannot come to visit me and stay with me. I was involved with a lovely lady who actually was a huge enabler with this discovery up until the "fun" stopped and it became serious for me..that relationship is also over now. I am too "passive" I believe she often said.

Courage....hmmm...I ask you..does it matter?...courage?...will courage make your friends accept you or your employer not demote you or worse?

Will courage stop the harsh scrutiny?
...or make you walk down the street with your head held up high, proud to be so different? Will courage stop folk from humiliating your wife...or your children?...or alienating your family?

The reality is that a price is to be paid for being who we are. The choice we make is just how high of a price will we be prepared to pay.

I saw someone write in this forum in answer to the question about whether to go out in public with friends (who had expressed curiosity about the femme inside)

Her answer to this person was "what have you got to lose?"

One has lots to lose, let me assure you.

I went back and read the original thread and noted that this one person mentioned that she was "too valuable at work" to be fired for cd ing....hmmm.....well perhaps she ought to test that theory....tomorrow....I would be very interested in the outcome. I mean after all, if one is that wedded to the notion that "courage and guts" are high held principles that will sustain us through all sorts of challenges well then I say....start putting those principles to a real test...something meaningful...and not by stopping to gas up your car because You stand to lose nothing in that situation.

This is not about courage...or guts. This is about facing the reality of who you are and making a CHOICE on how to live your life in a way that allows you a level of peace and security and also being satisfied with the price you paid...because there is a price you know.

BTW..speaking of going out in public....I was at a bar with several of my TG friends two weeks ago...and out of the blue....totally random...I was outed....I now have more choices to make.

I do not lament my lot in life. I have made choices that reflect who and what I am. Perhaps I have risked and lost too much. Only I will be able to answer that question as time goes on.

Best wishes to all who make the choice that keeps them safe and at peace.

[Duana]

So you are too busy "having fun in the real world to lead a revolution," huh? Well good for you! Truly! If you can have such fun, I am all for it.

Thank you, Anne. I AM too busy having fun being out in the real world. Sunday was spent at the Galleria shopping, bought a nice bikini bottom a Victoria Secret, then to a nice piano bar for drinks.

The problem I have with your responses, however, and despite what you claim to the contrary, is that you go out of your way to call those such as I out on the carpet.

I never personally called you out on the carpet. You took it upon yourself to be offended because YOU said you'd love to go out with shaved legs and painted toes. Do I need to go get the quotation?

And given that you are too busy to promote the transgender agenda yourself, because you are admittedly having too much fun to become involved, how dare you call me out!

By virtue of being out, I promote the agenda, dear. You do nothing for it. You're never in public therefore you don't exist in their minds. I crossed the paths of HUNDREDS of people Sunday. I'll ask you again. How many have seen you dressed and therefore become more aware of the commonality of crossdressing men in the world? That's what I thought.

Admittedly, however, I am at quite a disadvantage here. I do not know you, yet you appear to know me much better than I know myself. So how can I even begin to argue and debate against you? Particularly since you suffer from an obvious superiority complex. I have no possible way in which to reach you! Not that, at this point, I have any desire to do so, mind you . . . .

And yet you start a thread dedicated solely for the purpose of doing that.

I could go on and on with this, picking your argument, or what you believe constitutes an argument, apart with ease. But really, "I'm too busy having fun in" my closet "to lead a revolution" against members who have no idea of that which they speak.

Then why not leave me the F*** alone and go put on a dress and admire yourself in the mirror?

I've tried to let this thing die. I've said at least three times, I really don't care if you stay in your closet until you need to wear Depends instead of a thong. Drop it!

[LitaKelley]

I read your post many times, and still see hipocracy. You want "certain types" of CD's to remain out of the public's eye to make it easier for TS and those with GID to gain acceptance (hmmm - no mention of acceptance of CD's) . Instead of your verbose bashing, just tell me where I misread your post. Or are you just a TS looking down your nose at us mere CD's?

Excuse me? Stop adding your own conjecture and interpretation and only then will you actually get it. WHERE in any of MY ACTUAL WORDS do I SAY ANYTHING in regards to acceptance, and further.. where am I bashing anyone or anything? It's in your own mind. I'm not gonna go in circles with you over this, nor should I have to explain anything.. Use a dictionary if you have to... maybe even read it slower..

While I'm at it... how is an extreme transvestic fetishist sissy a "mere CD's" and WHY should such a person NEED to be OUT in a supermarket?? Further... why should this even be acceptable? Do take note of specific words and look up their meaning.. maybe it'll help you understand... I'll even give you a hint... try EXTREME for starters

[Anne2345]

Upon reflection, I have removed the post I previously directed at Duana within this space. Not because I believe anything I conveyed to her was inaccurate or undeserved, but rather because I now recognize, after calming down, that I allowed myself to be sucked into a no-win, petty argument with a member bent on attack regardless of the facts. In this, I regretfully lowered my otherwise high standard of conduct in my response to this particular member.

As to those members that do go out in public - yes, I very much believe that you all accomplish much good being out and about. For any that read my comment to Duana on this issue, such comment was directed solely at her, within a moment of extreme frustration, within the context that closeted crossdressers do not serve the community.

Regardless, all who know me here know that I support all members within the transgendered community. It is a beautiful, loving, caring community (for the most part), and one in which I am extremely proud to be a member of.

Last, in Duana's post that follows this post, she has quoted me from the post that I have removed. In the event you read such post, do keep in mind that these quotes are the very statements I have deleted herein.

Thanks!

Anne

[TxKimberly]

Cant ya just feel the love?

[Melody Moore]

I am off to see my pyschologist in about an hour or so. So I am going to ask her some questions
about this topic this morning, just to get some feedback from a professional who works in a gender
clinic dealing with these types of issues - so I will be sure to post my feedback later on today

As promised here is the report from my clinical psychologist at my local
gender clinic who I only finished talking to only about 30 minutes ago.

I asked my therapist this morning what are the reasons that she knows of why a transgendered
person, (crossdressers, transsexuals etc) might stay in the closet? and here is what she said....

"Most transgendered people in my clinical experience will stay in the closet for reasons that are
'fear based', mostly because they fear rejection & discrimination, however there are those
cross-dressers that dress up for sexual fetish reasons (transvestic fetishism) that prefer to stay
in the closet & keep their cross-dressing habits on a part-time because they feel that if they did
dress up all the time, then they would lose the excitement or feelings they experience from dressing."

I then told her my personal belief was that transgendered people, no matter who
they are must to what is right for them & what makes them happy and she replied...

"Absolutely! There is no right or wrong about this, what is right
for someone else might not necessarily suit someone else".

I then mentioned about the issues I brought up in my earlier post about some of the issues that have
been plaguing my local support group, which my clinical psychologist was also instrumental in setting
up originally with a few members of our local transgender community. I told her about how one of the
group's main organisers had told me that she was thinking about kicking out one of the girls in our group
because she hadn't still made any effort to start dressing up as a female to start her transition. And this
immediately raised my therapist's eyebrows & she was shocked to hear that this was happening in our group.

My therapist went on to say how "Acceptance of gender diversity is the key for our group that will provide
the best support our local transgender community." and then I replied "Exactly! and some people might not
need to transition, and they can understand better where they fit into the transgender spectrum & also find
better acceptance in the community if they are allowed to socialise & network with other gender identity types.
Excluding everyone else who doesn't fit the norms of a transsexual, ie: on hormones, out of the closet & living
full-time as a female was extremely counter productive to not only those involved, but to our group as a whole."

Again my pyschologist replied "Absolutely, but at the same time you need to be careful not to open the group up
too much where some people out there might see it as as an opportunity to 'pick-up-a-tranny' or allow others to
infiltrate the group that disrupt the group, or bring in a gang of guys to bash everyone up." But then when I told
her that we would only open up the group to the public as a whole when we had organised events where we have
security staff also working for us when we are running our bigger social events. Then I told her about how "One of
my lesbian girlfriends who identifies as gender queer is also a licensed security officer, and wants to volunteer her
services as well to ensuring the safety of our group at any smaller events". My pyschologist just smiled at me and
said "Gee girl, you really have got everything covered, but remember that acceptance of gender diversity is key!"

I said "Absolutely!" and left soon after that feeling really re-affirmed about the path I was starting to leading our local
support group on. Further more to this I am currently developing a new website for our local group which I will be happy
to share links to in another month or so after our next meeting when our committee will be elected, our mission statement
will be drawn up, along with the drafting of key policies. I believe it's time to end the divide in the transgender community.

[AllieSF]

Yes, Kimberly, I can feel the love. NOT! I have started and erased a post to this thread two times. I think this time I will finish it.

First, Duana, please go re-read what you wrote in this thread and others recently. I have. You did say that those (not just Anne) lack guts and need to grow a sack. That to me alone is inappropriate for anyone to write here to another member. When you want to admit you said that specifically about closeted crossdressers and admit that it was too harsh, then maybe I will listen more to your opinions in the future. Using your words, not mine, if you want to show your guts, grow a sack, or better stated, be a mature caring adult, then own up to your harsh words, then apologize and let it be. Everyone has their own opinion and are entitled to voice that opinion on this forum. However, there is decorum and maturity associated with replying. Unfortunately, you did not show much of that in your posts.

On a positive side, I too believe that going out does help further our own cause to get the toleration and hopefully acceptance that we have every right to expect. I don't march in the Pride parades, but I am there on the sidelines cheering them on, hugging the participants and interfacing with whomever is lucky enough to be standing next to me. I really do talk to complete strangers every time I go out dressed as Allie. I also do some of those backroom activities, like voting for qualified candidates who also support LGBT causes and rights. Is being out there the most effective way to move us ahead? In my opinion no. However, much of the prejudice and mistreatment comes from people who are ignorant about diversity and about LGBT in general. So, getting out and meeting people, being recognized as a transgendered person, telling our side of the story helps erase that ignorance.

So, in summary, others and Duana, please respect others for who they are and what they can do, and do not castigate them for not following your own opinion of what they should be doing. The whole intent of this thread as I see it is to ask for tolerance among ourselves here and support rather than criticism.

[PretzelGirl]

I'm all awash with the love.

Kumbaya......

[Duana]

Wow, Anne.

I appreciate the time you took to write such a detailed response. At the moment, I don't have time to deal with it in detail and I'm not allowed to post in this thread anymore. Please allow me to just make a few comments and get back to my real work.

By your own admission, you do nothing for the “agenda” except go out in public. And do you really think that accomplishes anything substantive? That is your argument in a nutshell – be seen, and discrimination ends! So jump in, the water is warm! Fear not!

Absolutely I think it accomplishes something. I didn't say it ends discrimination but when I go out with my GG, it shatters myths and stereotypes. Strolling through the mall hand in hand, dancing at the bar to the piano music are the kind of things that make people go "hmmmm."

But I will admit – nice picture!

Thanks. Nice of you to say.

However, you have also failed to cite any authority or recognized sources in support of your opinion. ...
But I would like to know more about how you arrived at your opinion, and the support for it. What experience and expertise do you base your opinion on? Are you out and about in transgendered rallies?

Its called history, Anne.

I'm not worried about the TS's, I'm more interested in shattering the myths about heterosexual crossdressers. A sickening majority, even amongst the gay crowd (admittedly, my own anectdotal evidence) think we're all gay.

Women, gays, and minorities have been fighting for decades and centuries for equal rights. They have yet to achieve it.

There's a good reason to stop.

Actually, all of those groups have made tremendous strides. It's not like they've made no progress.

And speaking of education, when you are out and about being seen by hundreds of people in the mall, do you take them time to educated them about yourself and “our” issues? Or do you merely walk by them with a smile on your face, saying nothing except “hello?”

I talk to anyone interested in talking to me. Most are afraid to approach me but I've talked to dozens.

You said that hundreds are people saw you on Sunday. Are you aware that there are more than 300,000,000 people in the United States alone? You accomplished much, you did, while shopping for new bras and panties at Victoria’s Secret. I thank you on behalf of the closeted community for your service to us all!

I'm wiping the sarcasm off my keyboard to say, I never said I could do it alone. Twice I've commented that if we ALL did it, we'd make an impact.

Oh, wait, you have one other plan – to attempt to shame us closet dwellers into coming out by stating such things that we lack “guts,” a “sack,” and that we are doing nothing for the transgendered community, whereas you are being viewed by hundreds of people in a mall. Great plan! Good luck with that!

It is STILL 2 orders of magnitude more than you're doing. You educated your wife, I educated hundreds in a day, at least to the degree that there are heterosexual crossdressers.

You are quite naive in your assessment of me,

I think thats the third time you've used the word 'naive'. You're not a bad writer but try to vary your adjectives a little to keep it interesting.

All I ask is that members respect one another, and debate and discuss their differences and opinions with class, diginity, and kindness.

This is so hypocritical it is laughable. You started an attack thread aimed squarely at me. Classy. Kind. Dignified.

And in this, you would do quite well to read the other responses herein, and reassess have you have conducted yourself on this issue.

Yes, mother.

As to the fact that I would like to shave my legs in the summer and display my painted toes, so what? You keep coming back to this.

It bugs the hell out of you doesn't it? I bet you wish you could take that one back.

I happen to have an aversion to body hair.

LOL! Yeah, ok.

Leave you alone? You are the one that came back to this thread. Or did you forget that you had previously said the following within this thread earlier:

I had to take a few knives out of my back.

So are you done now?

Maybe. I always reserve the right to defend myself, Anne. Sorry to disappoint you.

Cant ya just feel the love?

LOL! Oh yeah.

When you want to admit you said that specifically about closeted crossdressers and admit that it was too harsh, then maybe I will listen more to your opinions in the future. Using your words, not mine, if you want to show your guts, grow a sack, or better stated, be a mature caring adult, then own up to your harsh words, then apologize and let it be.

Already done 2 days ago, Allie. Go read my response to Reine.

[Cherry Lynn]

Love makes the workd go 'round.