Playing Devil's Advocate - our self delusion

[Claire96c]

I have met a good number of cross dressers and T-Girls here in the UK and I have to admit that nearly all would not have a hope of passing as real girls in public. They looked like men in dresses; tall, broad shouldered, large hands and feet, deep voices, prominent Adam's apples, and facial beards showing through overly thick make-up, and much much more. I don't think I'm any better even though I am not tall and have a small build.

Do we really believe we can pass when we dress or do we know inside that we haven't a hope of convincing anyone that we are female? Someone wrote that cross dressing is ten percent about clothes and ninety percent about our ability for self delusion. Do you agree?

Claire (on a bad day)

xx

[Karren H]

Assuming you want to pass.... 5% clothes and 95% attitude! Imho. Personally passing is over rated... Who cares what anyone thinks of the way I dress? Not me!

[Alice B]

I agree with Karren. What counts is how you feel, not what others think.

[Violetgray]

I'm not sure where you get the notion that most CD's think they can pass. Being passable, and looking good are not necessarily related. One can be un-passable, but still have a nice, respectable appearance.

There are varying degrees of beauty here, but the only judge that matters is the one in the mirror.

[Kaitlyn26]

I think almost anyone can be passable with enough work if they're under 50. If I had a nickel for every time I watched a makeup tutorial video where a nice looking man turned into a nice looking woman I'd be rich. The biggest problem I find in passing is that GGs take much better care of themselves than men do. If you know the technique and take care of yourself it's not that bad.

[DonnaT]

Some pass, some don't, and some pass quite convincingly. We are all different.

For me, I'd say it is around 100% the clothes, as I have no delusions regarding my passability.

But, when I was younger, I passed quite well.

Not all of us want to pass, but instead we want to relieve internal angst/compulsion pushing us to dress.

Personally, I could care less whether or not I pass these days.

[suzy1]

I think there are lots of members that do not kid themselves that they can pass but that is missing the point a bit. To feel feminine is a need that’s satisfied.
Then there are some here that have the ability to transform themselves with a little make up and the right clothes into very convincing women.
But I worry that there are one or two that go out thinking they pass when it’s obvious that they don’t. I hate to think of them getting hurt.


SUZY

[Kelly Greene]

I don't focus on passing when I go out my goal is to look nice.
If look nice then people have no room to make bad comments to me.
I known that I will never fool to many people into thinking I am a woman and
I am ok with that as long as I look nice.

[Debra Russell]

I don't know! -- I want to pass and after I dress and take enough pictures and look in the mirror long enough I see Debra looking back saying you look good, go have fun and off I go! ...............Debra

[Karren H]

I think almost anyone can be passable with enough work if they're under 50. .

50? What's so magical about 50? All of a sudden we old guys can't look like girls? Lol.

[Cynthia Anne]

50? What's so magical about 50? All of a sudden we old guys can't look like girls? Lol.

Yeah! Age has 'nuttin' to do with passing! And what does passing matter so much! Half the time I don't try to pass! I go out anyways!

[Emily Ann Brown]

I PASS....on caring! All I ask is don't make a scene, and make me show my butt!

Em

[sandra-leigh]

My delusions of passing as a real girl in public lasted at most 1 1/2 evenings. After that it became clear that even dressed and made up and wigged and be-formed, that people could "read" me... from 75+ feet away, in a dimly lit room, from a side-view of me simply sitting still. But it also became clear that most people didn't care, and that the large majority of people who did "care" in some way were encouraging.

These days, I do things like take the city bus in the middle of the day, with no makeup (or just enough to hide stray beard) and perhaps some lipstick; with no wig (shoulder-length natural hair); with dangling ear-rings; with me wearing an obvious skirt or dress. If I do not happen to hit the noon bus packed full of grade 9 and 10 students traveling at their lunch-time, then few people look twice at me -- not in the "I'm ignoring you, I'm ignoring you!" sense of not looking at me, but rather in the "I'm thinking about dinner and about something that happened today, and I'm waiting for a friend to call, and I'm worried about being late" kind of abstract non-attention.

[Chickhe]

...yes, maybe, but so what? This has all been hashed out before, but basically, there is a wishful thinking/ pink fog and there is also large range of variability in the average woman, so you might pass or blend in most of the time even if you don't do a great job. I beleive a huge part of it is attitude and a smile on your face. But, it is the whole package, it is averages, if on the average you have most of what most woman have then you are a woman (at least for a while). I have seen some TS woman who don't exaclty fit the perfect form, but they have personality and they are happy. Some CDers also look great, but walk like lumberjacks and sound like men .. and still some people don't read them. I also know of at least one GG who I would swear is a TG based on her looks, the way she dresses etc. but I'm pretty sure she is not. There is a huge mix, just do your best, pass on good advice and do what you like, get out there an just have fun.

[Karren H]

and make me show my butt!

Em

Emily.... You tart you!!!

[Persephone]

I strongly agree with Kaitlyn and moderately agree with Suzy1 (except for the "under 50" part), but for the most part I'm really tired of this topic. I think it is mostly a bunch of people who are trying to justify an easy way out -- I don't have to even try 'cause I'm never gonna win.

Fine, if your lifestyle choice is to wander the world as a freak. Hey, no problem, I'll even stare at you along with everyone else.

But there are a percentage of us who are willing to put in the time and effort necessary to pass -- to move through mainstream society as just another woman and there are a lot of us who do just that.

Does it cost a significant part of your life to work on those skills? Yes, it does. But so do other things that are worth achieving.

It is a lot easier to wimp out, to say something can't be done. Once upon a time it was common knowledge that a human being simply could not run a mile in four minutes. That was until 1954 when Roger Bannister did it in 3:59.4. Now there are runners who have done it lots faster.

So keep your "it can't be done" fantasy if that is your choice. But there is, and always will be, room for you to step up a notch.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[kendra_gurl]

How can anyone know how many cd's pass everyday? If they pass you probably never noticed them yourself. It's only natural that you will notice those who don't pass and still look like a man in a dress.

I can say from the times I have been out en-femme. GG's will read you long before men do. Sometimes just because the purse your carring does not go with your shoes like they should. Might not have anythng to do with your makeup or hair.

As for self delusion: I have to agree that I too have seen so many who either don't see what everyone else sees or they really don't care about passing as much as just being themselves but who's to say that is wrong if they are content.

[TGMarla]

I think almost anyone can be passable with enough work if they're under 50.

*schniff!* I don't pass anymore! Wah!

Hey, none of us should be under too big a delusion as to passability. But then, if we wish to, we can still try and make a decent presentation in any case.

[kimdl93]

I disagree with the original post. I think that most of us are our own most severe critics, and those of us possessing, heightl, broad shouldered and the other masculine feautures listed, are, I can assure you, painfully aware of these attributes. But you suggest that we are deluding ourselves if we have any hope of presenting as female.

People I trust have told me that despite my height and physique, they didn't recognize me as being male immediately. I do think there's a good deal more than physique - women come in all shapes & sizes, and have facial features of all kinds. What Karren says impresses me. Passing - or more generally - blending in are as much a matter of attitude and movement as they are clothing and physical attributes. And honestly, when I go out, I'm enjoying the way I look and feel, regardless of how I may be judged by others. As a wise friend once said "other people's opinion of me is none of my business!"

[Jocelyn Quivers]

The cursed Broad Shoulders. I have to work on that, I must, or else I will never pass. That's why from this day foward I'm swearing off push ups.

[NathalieX66]

One thing that helps passing is wearing the right type of clothing.
There are many women that have less than perfect figures. Not every girl want to show her cleavage or shoulders, so she may wear a sweater over the dress. flaunt your best assets, play down your worst assets.

[kimdl93]

now, this is something I think we need to think about. I'm told that we have to wear loose, raglan, dolman or otherwise draped sleeves and employ various other strategies to hide our shoulders. But sometimes I think we can go overboard in hiding too. I mean, there are lots of women who have attractively muscled shoulders. And sometimes a tank top or halter top just look right, even with a bit too much deltoid development. I know I've got those cursed shoulders, but damned if I'm always going to hide them

[Aprilrain]

GGs take much better care of themselves than men do.

this is mostly true however most of the things GGs (and TS girls, THANK YOU) do to take care of our skin and what not is not going to give a man that glowing smooth feminine skin that a lot of woman have. Its called Estrogen people!

[Michelle James]

I am over 50 (I won't say how far) and I am out there 24/7. I don't believe in the term "passing" Blending is what we should strive for. I just dress like most GG's do and I just look like one of a million other big girls. And you know what? I really don't give a shit if someone clocks me. Who cares? Oh and yes Karren we old guys can look like girls. Old fat girls but girls none the less.

[Dawn cd]

I think it depends on what you mean by "passing." Very few of us can pass upon close examination, but we can walk down the street en femme without attracting a second glance. Much of the social intercourse in cities is quite anonymous. People don't really look at each other. Even this level of acceptance for many cds is enormously gratifying.