Yes, period. It would be much simplier if we just, for the sake of labelling, and so the confused society at large could possibly grasp just a hint of correct understanding, erase all the labels and just call everyone 'transgender'. Or idealistically, do away with all the labels period and just call us people. What a novel idea!Originally Posted by SweetIonis
I beg to differ, crossdressing to become female is a specific behavior. You say that your identity is affected, I would say you are very much correct, it is what I have been discussing. There is a chicken and egg situatiion going on. Your crossdressing affects your identity, your idenity affects your crossdressing. Behavior and identity are waltzing together in a symbiotic relationship.
It is an issue that is rarely addressed in forums. You cannot have a crossdressing behavior and not have it affect your gender identity. And the more you engage in the behavior, the greater its' effect on identity which in turn reshapes the behavior to match the shifting gender identity.
Any behavior has this affect on identity even a job. If you joined the police force then the effect of learning a whole new form of behavior will change who you are internally. A man who leans how to be a woman is changing himself.
This leads back to the fundamental question in a chicken and egg situation - which came first? the behavior or the identity. I still maintain that if it is core identity then the transgenderism would have manifested itself throughout your childhood. If the crossdressing came out of the blue then it is most likely the behavior that kick-started the process and promoted feelings of transgenderism.
It is perfectly acceptable to say the issue is moot and you should deal with consequences, although the better you understand the processes the more successful you will be in integrating this into a happy and productive life.
If you need someone else to tell you that, I would say you are not. Transsexuality is a profound state of mind, you know you are a woman compared to just wanting to experience what it is like to be a woman.
I want to be judged for who I am not what I am. Thank you for listening.
The reason its not addressed on the forums is because its not true... we are all different, but crossdressing behavior does not change your gender identity... certainly it impacts lots of parts of each of us in many different and wonderful ways.
I did everything MALE...MALE MALE MALE MALE ..... that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change my identity...it just melted my soul until i admitted to myself what i was.... this is consistent with a huge number of experiences...... my identity was something i could not escape and only be embracing was i able to even see peace of mind in the future... the idea you are talking about is the EXACT opposite of what mid and late life ts people are doing every day...it is the exact opposite of what is really going on..
What i think sue you may be underestimating is the ability of the human mind to trick itself to cope with deep issues such as guilt, shame, and fear....these are the real killer issues...
it is actually COMMON for transsexuals to say they realized it late in life, or they never crossdressed until they self identified as transsexual, or they just assumed they were crossdressers and then BAM, the bell is rung and life is never the same....
it is common for transsexuals to live in shame and fear, and use crossgender behaviour to relieve anxiety... i guarantee there is someone reading this right now that thinks they are "just" crossdressing and not realizing that in the future, the bell will ring, and it will hit them hard...not because their dressing will change them, but because their dressing will not satisfy their need to exist in this world in the right identity, as a woman....
Kaitlyn, you are my friend. If this discussion is offensive to you consider it finished. If it has hurt you in the slightest way, I am deeply sorry for it.
Sue, Kaitlyn is my friend. We do not have to discuss this here. Let's do so by PM.
To both of you, I have something I want to share with you that happened today, but I need to do it privately. Both of you are very intelligent. I have formed this bond with Kaitlyn, and I don't want anything to come between it, if I can help it.
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no offense at all!! its just a conversation.. yes i have a strong view, and i also i am talking about experience and not theory..i have no medical background.. its just a conversation..
its an important idea whether a person can be conditioned into a gender.. there are some really nasty people out there that make a living trying to do just that, it has been tried, and its killed people..they do it with gay people too...
so when i see that idea here i tend to comment on it...pls no worries.. i like to scrap a little sometimes even with my friends!!
I agree with you 100% I'm 247 and I tell everyone I'm transgenered. It covers all cd,tv,ts.
So glad you are not offended. You have every reason to be concerned. I just didn't want you to take anything personally, because believe me, there is not the slightest malicious intent on my part. I think you know that.
The thing is this, gender identity is quite a bit more deep rooted and complicated than most people realize. To say that it is based on desire, does not NECESSARILY mean that it's possible for a human being to arbitrarily change someone's gender identity.
I'm going to go to another analogy. Desire can be considered to be like plants that grow from seeds. Our minds are like a field where all these different types of plants are growing. Desire enters the mind through association and suggestion. At first it's just like a seed that has been planted. Depending on the nature of the field and the environment, the seed may or may not grow right away. Some may sit for a while, dormant until they start to grow. Some may grow immediately. So we have all these desires in our mind. Seeds are constantly being sown there. Some desires that are there are dormant, some have just started to grow, some are at a point where they are almost mature, and some of them are mature and we are enjoying the fruits of them.
The thing is this, the desires that make up the garden of gender identification can be quite elaborate and mature. Let's suppose you have a redwood forest that has been growing for thousands of years. Then you want to start another forest to overtake that one. It's not going to happen in a by planting a few pine trees. It's not going to happen in a few years, because it took thousands of years to make that forest. You will have to put a similar type of effort to overtake that forest, and it won't be possible over the course of a lifetime. In a similar way, the desires that go into making gender identification can be quite complicated, and rather large and deep rooted. To think that simply by putting a dress on some arbitrary person and telling them that they are a girl will change that identification is naive. Now it may be if the desires in someone's mind are of such a nature that they have some pre-disposition to the idea then it may be possible to alter it to the extent where that becomes the dominant focus. But they would already have to have most of the stuff in place already to make that happen.
A lot of the stuff that is involved in behavioral psychology can be very dangerous when in the wrong hands. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE WHEN PSYCHOLOGISTS REALLY DON"T UNDERSTAND CLEARLY WHAT THEY ARE DEALING WITH IN THE FIRST PLACE. They should leave such things alone.
Last edited by SweetIonis; 09-18-2011 at 08:02 PM.
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You are so smart. I really like talking with you. Here you have made some good points. However, I think you are missing something. I am thinking about some very specific feelings that I have from time to time that are quite intense. I know you may find it strange. And if it's something that you have never experienced it would be something quite difficult to understand. I know exactly what you mean by a compulsion, and I know that crossdressing can be a compulsion. But it's one thing to want to crossdress. I know what that is like. Most of the time I am fantasizing like that. However, it's another thing to feel that you are something else. When those feelings come over me, they are quite intense. It's not simply about crossdressing. I said I am going to send you a PM. Perhaps I will try to explain it, although it's probably going to be something that is misunderstood.
Well again, there are people being treated for gender dysphoria now for whom the experience in childhood does not apply. That's a fact. Now you can still say it's not about a core gender identity and that's fine. But that does not change the fact. Now for the sake of discussion, someone could say that actually it was there, but that is just needed to be uncovered. Me personally, to rely on the seed/field analogy that I gave earlier, I would say it was like a plant that was there that was not quite mature and just needed some reinforcement to make it's presence fully felt.
Perhaps guidance would have been a more suitable term. That said however, I think you have made a powerful point. The sub-conscious choice of words could reveal something that is deeper. To be honest, I could see why someone who felt the things I feel would want to transition, regardless of whether it would be successful or not. For me however, the whole thing is a challenge. It's this whole thing of challenging danger and triumphing despite the obstacles.
I will talk about it some more with you in private.
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Labels....definitions.....clinical or otherwise..... How we humans cling to them, create them and then apply them to bring order to our lives. We understand labels....categories and such. They are part of our self awareness...what we believe about ourselves in many ways I think and perhaps more importantly, how we view others.
I find it interesting that within the so called "LBGT" community, there exists activism but certainly not solidarity. In fact within the subset of the "community" ...that T subset..(which by the way = transgendered). dissent, disorganization, rivalries and disagreements exist. Why do they exist? Oftentimes it is over "labels"...and "definitions".
CD...TG...TS...Pre-op....Post-op...One has a place on the "scale" and if you do not exactly know where you reside, there is likely someone within the community (or without) who will be happy to assign you a rung. Of course there is a means test...not very scientific mind you and not based on any reliable research but again, one needs some sort of label and a rung because otherwise, there would be no "men in dresses" or "women trapped in men's bodies".
There would only be people trying to cope and come to terms with how they feel inside.
If you are out of the so called "closet" and "out" in the community I am here to tell you that it won't be long before someone...or some folk will assign you a rung on ladder of the gender hierarchy. In fact, even here...at this site, if you happen to be quite "passable" you'll soon find yourself occupying an exalted position.
Will you transcend the lowly garden variety CD and graduate to...um...(apply whatever label works for you here)
Transgender is a word...how you wish to use it is totally your decision. I have seen it used differently by different folk. Are they misinformed?....are they activists?...do they use the term to describe themselves or others?
Does it really matter?
At the end of the equation what you think of yourself is really all that matters. The Means test...that one that others will use...your friends...family...others in the greater "community" really are meaning...less.
What if your therapist were to tell you..or diagnose you as suffering from delayed gender dysphoria and give you that coveted pass to the next level?...the HRT letter? Would you suddenly be a Transexual and no longer "just a transgender or a CD"?
I have been called many things during my rather short tenure as a "whatever" and believe me when I say....none of the so called "labels" that have been applied to me make me any more self aware. They only serve to confuse me. They are, in some ways insidious because labels....once applied and internalize can drive behavior...which then drive choices...and influence thinking. I think labels can be quite dangerous actually.
Labels and definitions, clinical or otherwise can be applied in many ways but oftentimes they are used to assign us to a particular rung on the hierarchical ladder...it could be ethnic...religious...socio-economic....or...gender.
I mean...is an Italian person more Italian if they know how to make Italian food?
I can say honestly that over the past three years of my life I, at first tried...tried very hard to categorize myself...to find a suitable label...because I thought that having my own label would allow me to understand myself...my label would suddenly place me right where I needed to be on either the gender continuum or...in the hierarchy.
I even sought therapy...to assist me in determining my label....my place if you will on that gender continuum. I thought it mattered. I really thought it would help me.
I have come to realize that Transgender....or any other "label" one wishes to use is really just another word, the definition of which is unclear, subject to ongoing debate, discussion and often subjective interpretation.
We are PEOPLE....we have this thing about us...these feelings and urges.
We have choices to make in order to find peace and happiness. My issues are no greater than your issues and whatever/whoever I am to others....should not drive my own self awareness in terms of this very personal internal process.
Labels are an integral part of our society and are here to stay. If we are trying to arrive at a suitable GENERIC label, thenTransgendered is as good a label as any other to describe those who occupy a "different" rung on the gender ladder or who straddle (one way or the other and to varying degrees) of the continuum.
Apply whatever label you wish to describe me....my name is Tonya Gray and I am a person....a good person I think. I will cling to that for now as that will hopefully sustain me.
Best wishes
If you keep having to use analogies to explain your idea, then you need to better construct your idea...
in this particular analogy you perfectly make my point IMHO...it is the seed that is male or female...it is not influenced by other factors...it is what it is...if the seed is female...and everything that influences it is male.... say it's watered with alcohol, and its planted in a charcoal.. it will not grow.. no matter what you do to it..thats a nice analogy for what happens to transsexuals in the world...
there has to be something that makes a person "know" permanently their own gender..i don't know what that something is..but this is all i am saying... otherwise transsexuals wouldn't transition, and IS people could be randomly assigned at birth and be conditioned to the gender the doctor picked for them..
Kaitlyn, I am trying to make due with my limited intelligence, my limited power to use words, and the limitations of the words themselves. We are dealing with things that you can't touch or feel. Over and above that I am clarifying my thoughts by this back and forth, so I am thankful that you are taking the time to engage with me. I will try to do my best.
On the face of it, I don't have a problem with what you have said here. However, recall that my original point was that desire along with cognition were the fundamental elements that drive what we observe as gender identity. Perhaps we are viewing the analogy differently. I view the desires to be analogous to the seeds and the garden as a whole to be what we observe as gender identity. If that's how you are viewing it, then of course we are on the same page. If not, that's fine too but perhaps we need to discuss further.
If by permanently you mean in our lifetime, then I am in agreement, because nothing in this world is permanent. That aside, I agree. My point is that if you want me to try to view a fundamental gender identity that is male or female as the driving force, without giving some sort of way to differentiate between the two, then you are making it difficult for someone to conceptualize the paradigm you are purposing. I thought about it for a while the other day, and when I tried to differentiate I was back at the point of desire, which again, leads me to believe that desire is the more fundamental element. That's my point.
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Getting in this late but it's an interesting discussion. I don't know how I would answer except to say that my full range of expressing myself as I am seems to require both a male and female persona. I don't get the opportunity to express myself as Josie near as often as I'd like but I would not want to give up my male side completely either. Being me, as I am, requires both.
I've never thought of myself as transgendered because I always assumed that it more correctly applied to transexuals. Maybe that's incorrect.
I am who I am, whatever label applies is OK with me
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Trust me when i say I have immense respect for TG's and TS's. My favorite TS is Aprilrain and my favorite TG/TS is Sylvia. But i really take offense when a general claim is made that all CD's are transgendered. For me, i dress like once a month, generally to go out to TG meetings. (I have whole apartment to myself and i can wear panties or whatever whenever i want but I DONT even wear panties, unless i plan to go for TG meetings.) I even find it strange why people see me as female as address me as she/Sara, when dressed, although addressing me otherwise as he/<malename> would be ridiculous in public. I really take offense to all you self-appointed definition/behavior experts making stupid ignorant claims.
PS: And by the term transgendered, I mean a person whose self identity is of female, not the "umbrella" term used for LGBT definitions.
Last edited by sara.s; 09-21-2011 at 09:49 PM.
Sara, if you don't mind the question, when you go to the support meetings, do you present as a woman like your avatar, or are you more like a guy wearing a skirt, without makeup, forms, wigs, etc. And if your avatar is you and you don't identify even partially with any aspect of the feminine gender, then why do you present this way?
Also, just so you know, TG does not mean being a transsexual who is a woman in a man's body. "Trans" means to cross, and Trans-gender means crossing a gender boundary in some way, even if it is an occasional desire to present as a gender that is opposite than birth, even if the predominant gender identity is male.
Reine
Of coarse, my avatar is me, although i wear a different brown wig!
The definition of TG you are presenting is the umbrella term popularized by the LGBT movement. Just search for transgender in google and you will see that TG means a person whose self identification lies with other gender. For your reference: http://www.google.com/search?&q=transgender+definition
Also search for transgendered definition and you will see the same thing.
Last edited by sara.s; 09-21-2011 at 10:18 PM.
No. But here you said, "for my entire life". The act of crossing is not necessarily permanent. Think of the word, "transcend". To go beyond. It can be just sometimes for a crossdresser, or it can be all the time for a transsexual. (Well actually, a transsexual does not "cross" anything in my view, since she is already a woman.) But, if your feminine presentation is no more than a costume like you do for cosplay or halloween, then I see your point. It's like a grown-up version of playing dress-up as a child, and that's OK too.
The first definition in your link is the google summary definition that is designed to be a brief as possible: "Adjective: Identified with a gender other than the biological one." But, directly underneath this definition you see four links to further explanations. One of the links is the definition from Wikipedia that I use all the time. It says, "a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles". The Widipedia article is more in-depth and it draws its content from 160 sources listed at the bottom of it, from experts in the field. The other three links directly under the google one-line definition lead to web pages that also have one-line definitions and that don't cite their sources.
I'm just saying, you should you get your information from sources that discuss this in more than one or two lines and not from the quick and easy web sites, simply because the issue is so complex.
Reine
Yes, crossdressing for me is only about dressup.But, if your feminine presentation is no more than a costume like you do for cosplay or halloween, then I see your point. It's like a grown-up version of playing dress-up as a child, and that's OK too.
The wikipedia article then explains in the next line, which is not what I am.Some definitions say it is an umbrella term, while some definitions say it is the self-identity issue and the debate on this can go on endlessly. On some sites, both definitions are provided. I don't dispute to all the several definitions as in my first post.
But what i am interested to point out is that "All crossdressers self-identity does not change just because they are crossdressed." I presume this was the OP's original intended question (based on her comments in this thread).
Barring the staunch fetishists, most CDs who present as women, do so in order to feel feminine. This is crossing a gender boundary. But, you CD because you enjoy wearing costumes. I assume that you do not feel the slightest bit feminine when you dress and this is perfectly valid. But I think if you surveyed the members here, you'd find that you are one of the few who feel this way.
When Ionis initially asked her question, I assume she meant the majority of the CDs and not the exceptions. And since the majority of the CDs in this forum present as women in order to get in touch with their femininity, they do cross gender boundaries even if they wish to feel feminine only a few times per month.
This is beside the point, but I also assume Ionis did not mean the men who wear skirts while presenting as men ... I'm not sure this would be considered CDing as we understand it in this forum. But, this is for another discussion perhaps.
We need to find better terms for all the different types of crossdressers. I agree that some do not fall within the TG spectrum, although the majority of the CDers here do, based on the interests they describe in their posts, and their pics in the Gallery.
So Sara, you're one of the few who falls outside the box. (You present fully as a woman yet you do not feel feminine). But, we shouldn't say the box doesn't exist just because you fall outside of it.
Reine
" I find it fun and adventurous to present myself like my avatar and for unknown reason i am drawn to it. I am also big fan of other costume events like Halloween, Cosplay and Crossplay ..."
I understand your general point about (in essence) activity (TG behavior) vs identity. Still, your posts at least hint at something beyond mere entertainment. It's in the combination of your statement that you are "drawn" to CD'ing for some "unknown reason," coupled with the frequency of your CD'ing. It's not definitive, of course, but appears to suggest something more is at work here.
Lea
That clarifies a lot of questions. I was always wondering why cd'ers never discussed men's clothes or costumes or cosplay here. Why anyone would want to wear bra/panties/cami underneath and what difference does it make since nobody would see it anyway, or why cd'ing for long hours with bra and all tight stuff. But we should take a survey or something to see why people cross dress.And since the majority of the CDs in this forum present as women in order to get in touch with their femininity, they do cross gender boundaries even if they wish to feel feminine only a few times per month.
.... But, we shouldn't say the box doesn't exist just because you fall outside of it.
Miss controversy here!
Seams to me Sara, you are repulsed and scared to have anything with "T" describing your, self and /or activities. Ever thought why?
If I like the look of coins and appreciate their designs then I am just an average person with a sense of esthetics and design. However if I start collecting them, even if it is extremely selective and sporadic then I have become a coin collector, and will soon be rolled into a label of amateur numismatic. Even though I am truly just about coins, they them selves do fall under general umbrella of currency, hence the numismatic umbrella term. Nothing to it, would I get upset about the term, I truly don't think so.....................unless the term would in my mind be a derogatory and classify me as an outcast of society then surely I would withstand it with passion
Last edited by Inna; 09-22-2011 at 09:16 AM.
I'm definitely transgendered. I'm a crossdresser, FWIW.
Hey I don't even write in sentences !!!
You just nailed it...you can't conceptualize it...... that the hard truth.. there is no guide for you... how do you "know" what you "know" about anything??
so i am suggesting you will never know..
It is not necessary to "know" you are female to "be" female...the seed does not have to know its a seed to be a seed
I thought i "knew" that i was male...genetically i am, i was born with male parts..i learned to thrive in a male role (for the most part)...i compartmentalized my gender thoughts...ALL of my alone time was spent thinking of my femaleness..but when the lights came on and the show started, it was all guy..
but pretending is hard, i got tired of it..it started to wear me down. over a long drawn out time of confusion and anxiety and worse...i wished it would all just stop.... I tried to "be" male by "feeling" male.. but it was like the inputs i was getting did not connect i I couldnt stand being around people anymore...every personal interaction made me more and more trapped and depressed....
the feeling that i was trapped and without hope DROVE me to consider that my lifetime obsession with crossgender behavior was my COPING with this existential, impossible problem...crossdressing was a dead end..
i finally accepted what i was...even accepting it took alot of time..i was so afraid i made up excuses and i ended up feeling worse and worse...
and finally i acted...
and then when i acted, when i transitioned, all those feelings stopped...the more i went down the path, the better i felt..the instant i started HRT i felt better...i knew it was right for me...i just knew..i'm sorry to say that it doesnt get better than that...there was no specific feeling ,it wasn't about makeup, clothes or anything specific...thats why i tend to HATE the COGIATI tests and things that lead people down silly paths...so you like baths?? hmm...maybe you are more female than male!! arghh!!
post srs, the dead feeling totally went away..the idea of switching genders seems incomprehensible to me....why would anybody do that?..LOL...think about that for a second..it feels to me now that i have always been this way...and what i've found is that its challenging to care about myself!! it's sad to me that i had to give up so much, but its inconceivable to me that i could be male..
in the end, the only way i found to answer the question was to do it...
this experience that i had is very consistent with many transsexuals that lived male lives for any period of time..
I'm glad you wrote this.
I know there are some late-onset TSs who realize who they are through having believed they were CDers. So, when GG SOs (or maybe even some CDs) read about such experiences, they may well wonder when their own husbands will realize they are TS, even when the husbands adamantly proclaim to be CDs. And so it's not a stretch for people who read such posts to file away at the back of their minds the belief that it is only a question of time before any CD will realize she is TS.
But your words above explain a major difference between a CD who doesn't know she is TS, and a CD who doesn't have it in his stars to want to transition. You describe a deep dissatisfaction over being male, a dead feeling inside even before you knew you were TS. I guess this describes the dysphoria, which was always there even though you were not aware what it was?
I should think that no matter how enticing and exciting it is for some CDs to imagine themselves female, if they don't experience that dead, sick feeling inside over being male, then they are not TS.
Reine
I think that you have fairly well crystallised something of what those of us who either realise or admit later on in life that we are TS go through. It probably is a good description of the effects of the dysphoria.
Curiously in my case, the sick feeling grew stronger around people who didn't have any idea that I was any form of TG than around those who (as my psy put it) knew I was only pretending to be male. Perhaps that's because I didn't have to try so hard with the second group.
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