Provoking question of a GG

[pinto]

Few days ago on radio there was a debate about transgender people. Nice and all the old stereotypes but one very interesting statement. One female psychologist stated the theory that the increasing number of CD/TG is connected to one fact: the female gender is on its way to become the strong, successful gender in society (feminisation of society etc.). CD/TG are recognising the decline of the male gender and they want to change over to the succesful gender in order not be on the "loser side".
I never heared that before.

[Katrina Black]

I think that the incressing # 's if so would simply be greater exposer because of the internet...

[ElusiveGirl]

At least half of the psychologists I've met were loony. She could be one of them.

Whether women win or not, guys who prefer to be guys are going to stay that way.

[Carol A]

No let's fact it ladies, more and more CD'ers are coming out and we just want to be who we are.

[cassandra54]

ummmmmmmmmm let's see. it's true women are playing a bigger role in shaping our world. nothing wrong with that. but let's compare here. if you are a woman, born as a woman, there you are. you can do anything you want. look at hillary clinton, look at condeleeza rice. awesome achievement.

on the other hand, what if bill gates was a crossdresser and started a company under his enfemme identity. there you have it. we can be both men and women, although as a woman we may not make a perfect match in terms of how you were born, mental and emotional makeup.

but one of the things i love about being tg is that i can steal a woman's thunder by walking in her shoes.........literally.

[Julogden]

I wouldn't argue that there is some feminization of society occurring, at least in some countries, but her conclusion is ludicrous.

Carol

[pinto]

Increasing numbers because of globalisation and internet may be true. I for myself would never have the courage to discuss this subject with friends. I came out on the internet on this site and i am happy that i have found this community.

[ReineD]

It's as good a theory as any other I guess, although I tend to think of women's progress in the last century as finally claiming our human rights. We simply don't want to be chattel anymore. We're still women though, we still marry men and have babies, so I don't see a decline in the male gender.

Also, is there in fact an increase of transgenders, or are we as a society finally beginning to recognize the existence of TGs, especially with increased research and also the advent of the internet? And if there is an increase, might it not be caused by physical factors such as the use of Diethylstilbestrol that was given to pregnant women during the 40s/50s. Or our changing environment, such as the widespread estrogenic compounds released in our waters by the manufacturing process, as is evidenced by the plethora of fish studies (also see here or just google it to see all the results) that show the feminization of male fish. Is there any correlation between this and human consumption of water?

Certainly there is room for many other theories.

[Cynthia Anne]

Some balonna is good! But I do think hers is spoiled!

[pinto]

The rising numbers of TG may also be connected to the awareness of this phenomenom. I see parallels to dark figures in crime. Awareness and brightening up the field makes numbers increase.

[Stephanie47]

Sounds like a bunch of bull$@#&! Yes, there are more females going up the ladder of success than before. Why? Because of anti discrimination laws? How about too many jerk guys are spending too much time playing video games and text messaging and goofing off. Check the stats on how much time is spent reading a book.

I watched on YouTune this morning a Whitney show with cross dressers. There was one young teenage boy on the panel who represents the vast majority of cross dressers. We cross dress because we are driven to it. The psychologist said the kids did not have enough interaction with peer groups, engage in activities, yadda, yadda, yadda. I tried applying her psychology BS to myself and could not relate. I did everything. I played unorganized sports every day. I played with cap guns, cars and trucks. I read comic books. I got in fights. I did well in school. I got drafted and did all the manly things to keep alive in the Nam. Bunch of BS. Each person is an individual.

And, if there is a feminizing of society, and, the women are taking over, then the guys better get enrolled in a weight loss program. You'd look a lot cuter in that French Maid outfit, if you are not obese.

[chloe23]

Internet, better Education, access to more information, Women are accepted today in the job market then they where years ago. Females are catching up to their Male counterparts today.

[Sara Jessica]

One female psychologist stated the theory that the increasing number of CD/TG is connected to one fact: the female gender is on its way to become the strong, successful gender in society (feminisation of society etc.). CD/TG are recognising the decline of the male gender and they want to change over to the succesful gender in order not be on the "loser side".

Right on, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I became self-aware of my gender issues at the tender age of 4 or 5.

Jeez.

[Kate Simmons]

Basically the main reason men end up being "losers" is because they are in the "doghouse" for one reason or another.

[Aprilrain]

what a bunch of BS! Personally I wanted nothing more than for this whole TS thing to go away so I could be "normal" and transition for me so far has done nothing to elevate my social status or income level!

[Cheryl T]

I have to disagree with this assessment that we are leaving the losing side.
We were always here, we just were not visible to the general public as we had many more closet doors closed in past years. Now things are turning and allowing us to be who we are and express it as well in public. We are just more in the public eye, not switching sides because women are becoming more empowered.

[Jonianne]

Well how does that explain the increasing number of FtM's as well?

She obviously does not know men very well. Guys just don't operate that way when they start being stressed. Maybe she was watching "Tootsie" too much, where Dustan Hoffman dresses as a woman because he can't get a job as a male. Most guys, when they feel threatened start to go to the extreme masculine end of the scale and start acting like jerks.

[pinto]

Well how does that explain the increasing number of FtM's as well?

Well Jonianne, this aspect is true. This number also seems to increase. Do FTM's want to be on the loosers side? I don't think so. Maybe our society has come to a point where gender is not fixed anymore. Hopefully it will affect more and more people so that it will become normal.

[VioletJourney]

That's like a reversed version of Freud's "penis envy" concept that pissed off lots of people.

[DebbieL]

It's a very interesting perspective, and probably has some merit, however, there are probably a number of other significant factors. In the 1950s and 1960s, there were only 3 major networks. Most of our stereotypes of women were fed by these networks who showed hours of June Cleaver, Harriet Nelson, and Laura Petrie. In general, women, many of whom had been "Rosie the Riveter" only a decade earlier, were now expected to give their jobs to the men returning home from WW-II and Korea. The divorce laws were designed to keep women from getting remarried, since most of the payment was tax deductible Alimony rather than taxable child support. Often, women struggled with depression and psychiatric disorders as a result of attempting to live up to these unrealistic ideals, possibly the side-effects of diet pills containing methamphetamine, tranquilizers containing phenobarbital, and alcohol.

In the 1970s and 1980s, the birth control pill, better contraception, and better feminine hygiene products gave women much more control of their bodies. They were able to enjoy sex without fear of unwanted conception, the common STDs, syphilis and gonorrhea could be cured with common antibiotics. As a result, there was more willingness to be attractive, to dress sexually attractive, and women weren't expected to preserve their virginity into their 20s in order to be acceptable for marriage.

Since women didn't have to have children right away, many women went to college, established impressive professional credentials, and then had their children within the framework of their careers, including support for day-care and other substitutes for the extended families women had given up in the 1950s and 1960s as part of what Ivan Toffler referred to as "Future Shock".

There had also been new options available for men as well. In the 1950s and 1960s, men were being drafted into wars, and it was their patriotic duty to answer that call of duty. By the end of the 1960s however, the Vietnam war had become very unpopular, men were burning their draft-cards, and many were looking for ways to delay or avoid the draft. In the 1950s and 1960s, gay men were considered traitors and draft evaders, and could be arrested. Lenny Bruce would say "I love what they do to gays in this state, put them in prison with a lot of MEN, that's real punishment". By the mid 1970's, even gays in high school were experiencing far less persecution and were allowed to participate in theater, dance, choir, and other non-military activities. By the late 1970s, gay characters such as Billy Christal's character in Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman had created a far more compassionate view of gay men. Harvey Milk had encouraged gay men to come out to their families, friends, and communities, so that people would realize that it was their children, grandchildren, brothers, and cousins who were loved and admired, who were gay. Not some nameless faceless person committing rapes against innocent boys in bathroom stalls.

By the late 1970s and early 1980s, cable television had spread across the country bringing a dozen or more working channels to choose from. This resulted in a wider selection of entertainment and a wider range of choices. We had MTV with people like Madonna, Billy Idol, and Pat Benetar, bending gender roles, playing them up, and slowly tearing down many of the traditional gender roles. Business Casual went from one Friday a month in the early 1980s, to standard business attire for IT workers.

It wasn't until the late 1990s however that Rue Paul crossed out of New York and ventured into New Jersey. Soon he had gone across the country, and eventually new movies like Pricilla Queen of the Desert, and "To Wong Fu, thanks for everthing Julie Newmar", had transformed the image of crossdresser from Psycho's Norman Bates, Dress To Kill's serial killer, Freebie & the Bean's assasin, and Silence of the Lambs "Buffalo Bill" to the compassionate drag queen bringing love, joy, honor, and compassion to men and women everywhere. Or that was the hope at least. We also had "The Crying Game" in which a transgendered M2F becomes a love interest for whom we have already developed affection and compassion before discovering that she has a little "something extra".

But more important than ANY of these things was simply the AVAILABILITY of information. In the 1950s and 1960s, it was almost impossible to find ANY reliable information on gender identity issues. Christine Jorgensen had tried to have herself castrated in the United States but doctors feared that they would be prosecuted for criminal assault. She eventually went to Stockholm Sweden where doctors were willing to perform the requested operation which was mostly just castration. She was essentially mutilated and when they did the final SRS, she was unable to have any kind of orgasm. It wouldn't be until the mid 1980s that the medical profession would be able to refine the procedures to the point where they could produce something similar to a functional clitoris.

In the late 1970s, Penthouse published penthouse letters and variations, which were almost entirely prose stories, targeted toward women. Initially, transvestite and crossdressing fantasies were put into variations, along with stories about bondage, humiliation, and lesbian sex. It wasn't until the late 1990s that these stories became more popular in Penthouse Letters and was associated with more conventional fantasies such as oral sex, swinging, and 3-ways.

There were publications related to crossdressing, but they were sold exclusively in adult bookstores, and you had to be 18 years old to even get into the store, then you had to locate the materials, which were often located next to fetish and bondage oriented publications. I remember my first trips to such stores and being lured into buying the magazines with these women in corsets, stockings, and heels, only to find out that they were into female domination. Many of these magazines also had stories of women who wanted to feminize men as a way to dominate them.

This forced feminization, also known as "petticoat discipline" was both appealing and terrifying at the same time. It was clear that these women wanted to abuse or punish the men they feminized. In many ways, it was more like describing a rape. There were a few magazines with men wearing women's clothing, but in the 1970s, there weren't any publications featuring she-males. The men in the pictures were obviously male, and often the men were not attractive at all.

By the early 1980s, there were more adult videos, and magazines of she-males. Sulka and Shannon became famous for being the first to have their transitions recorded on video, including adult movie scenes both before and after the procedures. I don't know their real names, but they did make quite an impression on me. By then I was married, but I began to see that it might be possible to become a beautiful woman if I wanted to.

In the mid 1980s, a number of Unix administrators had created a network of unix to unix networks that featured e-mail and newsgroups. These "usenet" newsgroups allowed Unix users to discuss a variety of things in seemingly anonymous way. Often, the IDs and hosts were hard to identify, so it felt like you could say anything. There were two newsgroups, net.women and net.motss which stood for Members Of the Same Sex where many transgendered men and women were able to discuss their frustration with gender roles.

Even in the 1990s, transgendered men had no protection from sexual harassment. A man couldn't even complement a woman, but a man could me harassed and even fired for things as simple as wearing a pink shirt to work, wearing his hair too long, wearing an earring on the wrong side, wearing two earrings, or wearing pants that were too tight. He could be harassed and fired for being PERCEIVED as being gay, even if he was just transgendered.

And even as late as 2005, some states would give men who killed transgendered or homosexual men minimal charges such as 3rd degree manslaughter, while a homosexual or transgendered man who killed a gay-basher in self defense often got the death penalty.

The Matthew Shepard law - named after a boy who was bound in barbed wire, tortured, and murdered. His murderers claimed a "gay panic defense" hoping to get a reduction in charges to manslaughter. One turned witness for the state, and the other got life without parole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

Even as recently as this summer, a transgendered man was beaten severely by two women in a Burger King because he was dressed and used the ladies bathroom. Even though the assault was captured on a video phone, the women were arrested and the charges were dismissed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violenc...endered_people

In some countries, transgendered and cross-dressers are given the choice of being raped daily in prison for a year or more, being executed, or being castrated. In many churches in the United States, violence against gays and transgendered is still openly advocated.

I have often found it ironic that gays and transgendered boys/men are targets for violence while pedophiles are given jobs as youth pastors.

[Eryn]

Internet, better Education, access to more information, Women are accepted today in the job market then they where years ago. Females are catching up to their Male counterparts today.

Actually, in many ways they have blown past them and are definitely in the lead. In the US, 42% of college-age females are enrolled in college, but only 35% of college-age males. Women achieved parity in 1991 but nobody noticed. The gap continues to widen but few care about that since it's males coming out as the losers.

Better preparation means greater opportunities and access to positions of power. If you think that Hillary and Condoleeza are remarkable you ain't seen nothin' yet. The floodgates are still opening. Do a Google Image search on "Student Body President" and gaze upon the faces of tomorrow's leaders.

It's certainly not a good time to be a guy in the US. We're becoming obsolete except in areas that require manual labor to be done.

What does this have to do with crossdressing? Not a thing. Correlation does not imply causation.

Even as recently as this summer, a transgendered man was beaten severely by two women in a Burger King because he was dressed and used the ladies bathroom. Even though the assault was captured on a video phone, the women were arrested and the charges were dismissed.

Are you referring to the beating of Chrissy Lee Polis, a trangendered woman, in a Baltimore McDonalds? If so, the charges were not dismissed. Her adult attacker, Teonna Monae Brown, was sentenced to five years in prison.

[Kate T]

I have a real concern and question whether this "psychologist" seriously is abreast of gender issues.

First concern. There is little or no evidence that CD/TG is either on the rise,in decline or stable over any timeframe in any society. The studies just aren't there to show it (as has already been alluded to by Reine).

Secondly it is not hard to find a multiplicity of hard data to clearly demonstrate that whilst the social plight of women has improved it is still far from being "superior" to male. Studies by the UN demonstrate lower average income for females (app. 15% lower than males), increased risk of violence, increased risk of sexual violence, women still occupy less than 20% of the seats in DEMOCRATIC governments. Sorry, exactly what are they winning?

It's fine to spout off an opinion in a debate or discussion or throw something out there as a point of discussion but I truly hope this person does not genuinely hold these views if they are professionally trained. They are going to need one hell of an argument to back it up.

[DebbieL]

That's like a reversed version of Freud's "penis envy" concept that pissed off lots of people.

Frued's "penis envy" had very little to do with the genialia, but referred more to the desire of many women to have the same kind of political and economic power that men, especially wealthy men who frequented the prostitutes Freud interviewed for his research, held.

I think there is also a form of "Breast Envy" among men that is probably for more widespread than most would like to admit. Men, especially younger boys, often look at all of the choices and options that seem to be available for women, and the regimentation and violence involved in being a man, and wish that they could have some of that freedom and love that they seem to think women enjoy.

The reality is that if a woman had to grow up male, she would probably hate the violence and brutality as much a many men do, but she would engage to survive. Conversely, if a man had to deal with periods, PMS, the itching and discomfort of having to wear a particular type of uniform, even stockings, heels, and skirt, every day, and the perception that he had to always act lady-like, would year for the power they would perceive men as having.

[donnatracey]

Few days ago on radio there was a debate about transgender people. Nice and all the old stereotypes but one very interesting statement. One female psychologist stated the theory that the increasing number of CD/TG is connected to one fact: the female gender is on its way to become the strong, successful gender in society (feminisation of society etc.). CD/TG are recognising the decline of the male gender and they want to change over to the succesful gender in order not be on the "loser side".
I never heared that before.

Me neither. And to her argument I have 1 word: hogwash.......................

[sissystephanie]

The GG was a psychologist and therefore entitled to her opinion, as is everyone! The major question is what proof does he have for her theory? Alomst anyone can state a theory, but for it to mean anythig there must be some proof!!

As Pinto said, "I never heard that before," and probably will never hear it again!! Because as DonnaTracey said, "Hogwash!!"