Actually Women (GGs) That don't even Pass

[NCAmazon]

I've done some searches on here regarding passing and people on here feeling that they are getting read and they are getting outed etc.

But then I reflected on dozens of actual women(GGs, the term GG kinda creeps me out in a way) I met that often don't pass. I was at work today and there were at least 4 women I took a look at closely and then was like is that a woman or man dressed. I thought about it for a bit then dismissed it. Later I find out that both of these women had kids and a husband.

So unless you go into analysis mode it seems most just assume what you present yourself as.

Can you imagine being a actual woman(GG) and getting read as a man all the time. I once met a tall black girl at a bar she was about 6'3" and my friends initially were like "Dude that looks like a man". But I approached her and she was in fact born GG. I'm into tall girls so I was flriting with her and dancing with her.

Another time I approached another tall girl and she was a volleyball player, but she had very tomboyish voice and mannerisms not really feminine I thought she might have been a man. I did in fact verify that she was on a local college womens volleyball team.

So I'm thinking I'm not the only one who has met women who we thought may be men but then just shrugged it off and assumed they were GGs and in fact they turned out to be actual women.

This maybe can shed light on the doubt many on here feel when they think they are read, Many actual women have to deal with being read the wrong way everyday! They ignore and carry one.

I'm open to hearing other thoughts on this??

[Jenniferathome]

I don't agree. I think you may be confusing beauty with passing. My wife told me just yesterday that while I pass in profile view, from straight on she can tell I am a guy. I told her I thought I was better looking than some women (conceited, I know) and she remarked, "yes you are, but you are still mannish." The point is that we can all tell, easily, that even ugly or masculine women are women. I have never seen a woman whom I thought was a man but was genetically female. I have seen TSs and CDs whomever I can easily see we're/are men.

[NCAmazon]

Well I think maybe these CDs passed in your eyes then or you didn't second glance them. There def ways to easily see someone who is a CD not passing, but I'll be glad to show pictures of these women that look like they are CDs or TSs but in fact are neither.

My guy friends are no experts in reading, but we looked at these women and were thinking and trying to figure out what they were only to find they were actual women. They didn't put much thought to it , but it happens all the time to actual women depending how they present themselves.

[suzy1]

I have given some thought to this. And I have to be honest and agree.
There have been times when I was not sure if the person was male or female.

When we look at human beings in all there variety of shape, colour, short, tall, big or small ears, nose, eyebrows and so on then there is bound to be some overlap between the sexes.

So if you are saying its not so difficult for one of us to pass as we might think then I agree.

But that’s just Suzy’s opinion.

[LilSissyStevie]

I live in the mountains and there are a lot of rough and masculine women up here. You generally don't wear lipstick and high heels to lunge your horses or muck out the pig pen. But you can still usually separate the boys from the girls without a double take.

A nearby rose ranch had an open house not too long ago. All my rose bushes came from there and I went there hoping to find out some of the names of the roses I had. I overheard this guy talking to a lady and he sounded knowledgeable about roses so I decided to ask him some questions. He looked like the typical mountain tweaker type: super skinny, jeans, heavy metal t-shirt, logger boots, long stringy hair, tattoos up and down his arms, sunglasses and baseball cap. When I got my chance to approach, I realized that "he" was a woman. In fact, it turned out that she and her husband owned the place. The only thing that really clued me in was her jewelry. Speed freaks don't usually wear pretty feminine jewelry. Once I realized she was a woman, I could see other clues. I doubt she was trying to fool anybody. But it made me think about how we are constantly and unconsciously sexing everyone around us. Why was it so jarring to realize that I had sexed her incorrectly? I can't think of any reason why it would be important that I know whether that person was male or female. I just wanted to know about roses.

[NicolaF]

I think as cross dressers we are probably more conscious of this sort of thing and so give more time to it and probably over analyse it.

For most people if they saw a woman who looks a bit "manish" it would probably never even cross their minds to think that it could be a man in women's clothing, but for us it might be the immediate idea that pops into our minds as it might be on our minds a lot of the time.

Thats just my take on it anyway, maybe i am way off.

[Kaz]

I think as cross dressers we are probably more conscious of this sort of thing and so give more time to it and probably over analyse it.

For most people if they saw a woman who looks a bit "manish" it would probably never even cross their minds to think that it could be a man in women's clothing, but for us it might be the immediate idea that pops into our minds as it might be on our minds a lot of the time.

Thats just my take on it anyway, maybe i am way off.

No I don't think you are way off at all. I have been in the closet more in the last year or two having had a great year venturing out and about a couple of years ago. Initially I was amazed at how nothing happened... no stares... some smiles from girls and a couple of guys when in close contact, but all positive and good. Then I had a couple of unnerving experiences and I went into staying in my room. On balance, a handful of what looked like double takes against hundreds of 'no issue'. Could the double takes been CD's 'clocking' me?

I see loads of women out there who could possibly be men, given their features. I know that they aren't. Then I see CDs every now and again who are obvious... usually this is down to bad dress sense and not quite blending into the norm.

Yes there are definitive male and female features, but we are all subject to variation - this is the nature of genetics. There are men and women in the tail of the distribution.

My problem is that I don't want to be an ugly woman!

[cassandra54]

well look at janet napolitono. here in az she was the but of many jokes, because she looks like a man. beauty, culture and aesthetics aside, let's face it there are some women, (ggs) that you would wonder about.

as cds, tgs we are definitely more concerned about our appearance. at least from some of the pictures i've seen on here some of us look incredible and would never be given a second look.

[NCAmazon]

I'm in agreement with a lot of the opinions on here that sine CDs focus on the aspect of passing and getting outed they manifest it in many ways. Most people who walk day to day don't walk around thinking Let me spot the crossdresser today.


Have any of you ever met a female bodybuilder. I've been in the fitness scene for awhile and am an enthusiast. At many shows they have Womens bodybuilding contests. These women take testorterone steroids and develop manly chararcteristics including voice, muscles, facial structure change, facial hair, enlarged cliterous and agression. They often look like big CDs in a way. But they present as women and others assume they are just freaky women.

[sanderlay]

To pass or not to pass... Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder. Sure... I look at other people and see how they present. I look to see other people's fashion sense. Some appear as women and some as men. Some dress in an androgynous style which blur the lines. These persons to me are the most interesting. So why pass? What's so important about this? Why wear a stereo type of gender identity?

I present as both the feminine and the masculine so I don't care who thinks I pass. My body shape is masculine but I CONFIDENTLY wear feminine attire and jewelery with a SMILE. I'm sure most look at me and see a guy in feminine attire. But... do they see beauty in how I present? Do they see my honesty and confidence? I'm sure some just laugh to themselves as they smirk or stare. I'm sure most just don't care either way as they go about their own lives.

But so what? Who cares if I pass to some societies idea of beauty of the male / female body? Not I. As long as I don't make a scene I'm fine. I just go with the flow.

[ReineD]

... that often don't pass. I was at work today and there were at least 4 women I took a look at closely and then was like is that a woman or man dressed. I thought about it for a bit then dismissed it. Later I find out that both of these women had kids and a husband.

First, the terminology is all wrong. Women aren't trying to pass. They are who they are.

Second, your logic is flawed, in my opinion. If they didn't "pass", in other words if when you first saw them you assumed they were men, then why did you first take it they were women and then decide to have a closer look? Did you question them because they were not dressed femininely enough, or they didn't have a classic figure or classic facial beauty?

Third, first impressions of gender are only fleeting. The minute you talk to someone everything becomes quite clear, because then there is the voice, facial expressions, hundreds of subtle gender mannerisms, and movement that shows the face and body from lots of different angles. The mind subconsciously computes all these cues and most people do know the birth sex quite quickly.

As a gender-fluid person, your own eyes may blur the more subtle gender cues. I also gather from your post that you would like to know there are women who "don't pass", so that perhaps you might believe you blend in more easily? The mind is a powerful instrument and it is understandable that you might see what you want to see.

Admittedly, there are butch looking women like Janet Napolitano. And there are men with weaker chins, like the poker player Billy Baxter. Also women lose estrogen & men lose testosterone as they age (I've no doubt that Janet looked more feminine when she was younger and thinner), and it does happen that couples in their 70s look quite alike which is expected in old age.

There's nothing wrong with saying that you feel more comfortable blending in when you know that some women aren't as feminine looking as others. But, I think you rationalize when you say it is "often" that women "don't pass".

The point is that we can all tell, easily, that even ugly or masculine women are women. I have never seen a woman whom I thought was a man but was genetically female. I have seen TSs and CDs whomever I can easily see we're/are men.

This has been my experience as well. I cannot recall seeing someone whose gender I questioned, save an extremely passable CD or TS. And of course if it was a stealth TS, then I would have never known.

[SweetPea_GG]

I didn't know I was suppose to 'pass' as my own gender lol

[Babeba]

Sometimes, now that I have an awareness of TG issues via dating my boyfriend, I do double take on men and women I see in the street or grocery store. I wouldn't call it a matter of passing or not, just that I feel like having more than a passing look. I don't know why - I don't care if they are cross dressing, it's no skin off my nose and none of my business- but I feel more aware of transgender possibilities. The only time I think I may have found a cd'er was on a train platform in a tiny town in the uk. I felt so bad about it- she hid her face when I tried to look at her closer... Which was a total shame because the reason I noticed her in the first place was because of her super cute hat and I wanted to ask where she got it not make her feel uncomfortable!

Anyway, on the topic of being misidentified in gender... I have been sir'ed. When I was wearing a sundress and no makeup, and nothing remotely masculine. I think sometimes people see what they want to?

[Samantha B L]

This is an interesting thread and all of the remarks are interesting. But this talk about people,GG's,CD's,or otherwise, being "pretty" or conversely,"ugly" is all a little bit grade school. As you get older looks aren't as important. Everybody is pretty or handsome in some way.
Would so many people be married if it weren't so? I was fascinated with crossdressing and transgender things even as a child and when in the rare instance that I saw somebody walking along in a department store or a supermarket who was probably by some indications a TG/TS/CD person I was oddly fascinated and I really didn't think to myself if they were good looking or not. Whether it was an m to f or an f to m.



I had a weird experience and I try not to be redundant,I've posted about it a couple of times. I was looking through the family snapshots 15 or 20 years ago and I was going through some black and white polaroids. There were about 10 shots of a 50-ish beauty in kind of a dark turtleneck pullover with a hairdo like Serina on Bewitched and a lot of makeup and large dark foster grant sunglasses. The pictures were from aproximately 1973 when I was 17 years old and it occurred to me they were of my Mom. I love Mom. My parents were more lenient than most others. We were spoiled a little bit,but not beyond the pale. I loved Mom and Dad. Nobody's perfect and they both cussed and hollered all the time and smoked constantly,too. But I always saw Mom as being sort of like Edith Bunker. A well meaning pleasant nuicanse giving us cookies and brownies one minute then blowing her top at 8:00 or 9:00 at night and hollering at us to "put away that goddam electric train away in it's box and get the hell to bed this instant". Let's get it straight. I am NOT turned on by my Mom but those snapshots were strangely vindicating.



Mom's stepmom and a couple of her sisters and brothers thought she was ugly and rubbed it in sometimes. It's funny how your mind can play tricks on you,I mean Mom was that person with the foster grants right in front of my nose and like most young kids I thought of her as handy with paying for pizza delivary then despotic in telling us to turn off Charlie Chan or The Three Stooges and to "Get To Bed On The Double". The point is looks will fool you. For sure.

[Momarie]

NCAmazon, with four posts.

It's never happened to me....
And in all my years and all my conversations with other real women, I've never heard of it once happening to them

[Ellyn]

Years ago, before I was married, my girlfriend's friend was slim, and really short changed in the breast department, and she had a then fashionable short haircut. She was easily mistaken for a young guy. This brings me to the current fashion for women's hair--short and looking very much like a bad men's haircut. While out for dinner, there were two older women, with the current fashionable hairdos, and if it was not for the clothes and accessories they could have easily passed for a couple of male truck drivers. They had years of diminishing female hormones behind them, and their femininity was on the wane. A decent feminine hairdo would have served both of them well, as far as maintaining a feminine appearance. I have always found that hair is a very important component of femininity. I once ran into a delivery "person" who brought me a shipment of a number of heavy boxes and other items including several five foot tall rolls of reinforcing wire. I have yet to determine whether this was a man or a woman that "manhandled" the goods out of that truck. It will probably always remain a mystery.

[Daintre]

This thread is done.

Firstly this is a MtoF CD section, and as such it is here to help with all things CD.

Secondly, GGs are not trying to pass, they are living their lives.

It is fine to use GGs as a guide. They can help you to no end if approached properly.

[ReineD]

Ellyn & Others, how many women would you say you've seen with your own eyes, either in real life or in the media throughout your life? Not just talked to, but walked by on the streets, in the malls, in the movie houses. Hundreds every day, maybe? And multiply this by how many days have you been noticing women? So the total number of women you've ever seen could run into the tens of thousands?

OK. So you saw two older women who looked masculine, and also a delivery person you couldn't determine was a guy or a girl. Maybe the delivery person was a guy without the square chin, the square forehead, the thick eyebrows, and he hates his face because it doesn't look masculine enough. But I digress. You've noticed a minute fraction of women who might have been taken as men, compared to the tens of thousands of women you've ever laid eyes upon in your entire life.

So, would you say that the vast majority of women that you have ever seen appeared to you as women and there was no question in your mind that they were women? I'm guessing so. Yet, you and some of the CDers in this thread seem to focus on the tiny minority (a handful, perhaps?) who don't put a high priority on looking feminine. Maybe they're butch. Maybe they're genderqueer. Maybe they're transitioning transmen. Maybe they're past menopause. Anyway, why are there so many threads here that focus on such females, and give the impression that you (and other CDs) believe such females are more the norm than not?

I think it's because life is easier for a CDer, if he feels he is subconsciously compared to the less feminine looking women than, say, a roomful of Marilyn Monroes. And I can see your points, really. You do want to pass and blend-in and this would be more challenging if you were standing next to the hottest model around. Makes sense.

But, in real life, we are not surrounded by the Marilyn Monroes, nor are we surrounded by women who might (MIGHT) be taken as men if they wore men's clothes. Most women are average looking and most definitely are not mistaken for men. So please, just focus on yourselves, stop comparing yourselves to women, and just go out, be confident in who you are, and have a good time!