Can a CD really mix in with TG/TS socially?

[AKADonna]

About 10 years ago, I was in New Orleans on business with a group and we happened into a bar on Bourbon St, found some good looking women there only to learn from the bartender that there was not a GG in the house. Thoughts of that night have always intrigued me.

Over the years, I began CDing, but because of my large torso, never have been able to pass very well. I love the feminine feeling that I get wearing femme underwear, though. Therefore, I underdress in Bra, Panties and hosiery every day nowadays, but I rarely have the opportunity or desire to go out fully dressed, hair, makeup, etc.

In a couple of weeks, I'm returning to New Orleans on business and plan to go back to the TG/TS bar scene and check it out. Having never met socially with anyone from the scene in person, I am curious as to how well I might or might not be received. The way I look at it, Cds and TGs and Ts's are all seated on the same feminine bus - just in differing sections and with differing levels of commitment.

I've been thinking about going into a TG/TS bar dressed in drab and striking up a conversation with some person there. At some point in the conversation, I would not be at all ashamed or embarrased to explain that I am a CD (and in fact, underdressed at the time). Would I be looked down upon as some kind of 'amateur', a nut or non-committed or would I be viewed as a part of the scene?

While I am not particularly looking for any sort of relationship, I guess I would be looking for acceptance and am fearful of rejection. Remembering my last visit down there, most of those gurls there really passed very well and I'm sure that I will find some of them very appealling. This could get exciting! Would that be too weird or what - with me dressed in drab and everyone else looking very femme?

How well do CD'ers mix in a TG/TS setting? Has anybody had exposure to such an experience? Can you advise me what I might expect?

[Debglam]

How well do CD'ers mix in a TG/TS setting? Has anybody had exposure to such an experience? Can you advise me what I might expect?

After a social event that included practically all parts of the transgender spectrum, I spent the latter part of the evening sitting in a hotel room, sipping wine and talking. There were probably about a half dozen of us from post-op women to part timers like me. We were just friends, girlfriends if you will, enjoying each others company. Nobody was asking for ID or where you were on the gender spectrum. I think we mixed pretty well and isn't that the way it should be?

Maybe that is why I don't get some of the divisiveness I see on this forum at times.

Debby

[Aprilrain]

If a CDer isn't TG then what the Heck IS a TG??? I KNOW what a TS is and there are a few different flavors. pre, post and non op. So what pray tell is a TG? I thought that was just a blanket term for all of us.

Anyway, SURE its possible for CDers to get along with TS it happens frequently at the support group that I attend. Though I have noticed that after a while the TS stop coming. I'm kinda at that point with it. I can't speak for anyone else but I know for me it has nothing to do with the CDers I'm just bored with it. I probably have more in common with their wives than them.

[Bree-asaurus]

The way I look at it, Cds and TGs and Ts's are all seated on the same feminine bus - just in differing sections and with differing levels of commitment.

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree with that statement. Yes they all fit in under the transgender umbrella because they all don't fit in with the binary gender roles of our society, but that's it. It has nothing to do with commitment... we are fundamentally different in WHY we wear what we wear.

I'm not a man that is so committed to wearing women's cloths that I decide I want to chop off my penis. I wear women's cloths because I AM a woman. I am NOT a man. I do NOT feel comfortable with my male parts, acting like a man, being treated like a man or wearing male attire. It's all horribly depressing to me to the point I want to kill myself. Yes I mean that literally.

Being transexual is NOT about the cloths... being a crossdresser IS. I do not find myself more comfortable around crossdressers just as I wouldn't find myself more comfortable around someone who collects coins. Sure I wear women's cloths (because I AM a woman) and I carry coins in my purse. But I'm not super into women's cloths just like I'm not super into coins. My boyfriend likes to collect coins, but I just can't relate :P

Everyone's different though, because while I don't care to go to gay bars to watch drag queens perform, I know some of my transexual friends do. I just don't see the entertainment value in it.

But if I met you at a bar I wouldn't feel like you are an amateur or whatever. You're still a human being just like everyone else. I would accept you for who you are just as you would accept me for who I am. We just wouldn't find any common ground simply because your a CD and I'm TS. Unless you had style and wanted to go shopping that is :P

[Mikaela]

I agree with Bree and I'm a CD.

A lot of CDs think we're the same spectrum and a lot of it has to do with a fundamental misperception of labeling ( it's also why we're all lumped in with Gay/Lesbian stuff). Just because TSs 'start' as crossdressers as part of their transition (and I mean that inoffensively insofar as you are wearing clothing not of you binary phenotypical gender) doesn't put them in the same category as those of us that are fetishists, want to be pretty, bigender, or may even have unresolved TS issues.

The community isn't as much of a community as people want to think.

Yes we can be empathetic and yes we can relate to some of the TS issues, but it is not all apples to apples. Expecting them to treat you like a sister is rude. Even expecting another CD to be your friend is rude. Like Bree said, don't expect -this- to be the common ground.

I don't necessarily find myself more comfortable around other CDs, because there are so many types. I go to places (the TG clubs) where they are, purely because it is a 'safe' environment, but not everyone is my friend. If my girlfriend is not there yet or my actual friends, then I am more likely to talk to the bartender or staff instead. I can't stand the 'performers' because I don't see the entertainment value in TS/DQs lip synching and dancing. I'd rather listen to karaoke.

As to your question, it's a big depends.
I don't talk to men there. Some people may want to hit on you as a presumed admirer. Ultimately it depends on whoever you wind up talking to.
A lot of people make assumptions about who they are talking to (CD, TS, ?) and it often comes across as rude. A TS mistaken for a CD may be offended ("So when did you start dressing?"). A CD mistaken for a TS may not be. I've been asked many times how long I've been on HRT. It might be a compliment, but I don't know, it's still a weird thing to say.

I'd keep the under dressing to yourself. A TS Woman doesn't want to hear about your undergarments and most CDs don't care or don't want to hear it either. You may want a pic of your femme self accessible on your phone if the conversation goes that way, but focus on connecting with the person on more things than wigs and panties, please.

[AKADonna]

Thanks Mikaela! That's just what I was looking for and concerned about. Having never been around othe Cd's or TG's or TS's, I don't know what would be so different anyway. They are just people, like myself. They all have their own issues and concerns and certainly don't need to hear about mine to have an enjoyable time. On my earlier visit, I was just so taken back by how beautiful those people were - I just have to get into position to talk to them and learn from them.

Thanks again!

Donna Sue

[kimdl93]

In my experience CDrs fit right in with others in the GLBT setting. (Notice I used a broader classification - or a bigger bus - if you will. ) I have felt very welcome during my outings to local GLBT bars, without exception. That doesn't mean that every patron was thrilled to see me or meet me - on the contrary most people keep to themselves and a circle of acquaintances. But, I've made a number of friends - gay, lesbian and CD.

I can't say how I might have been perceived if I went en drab, since I always go en femme. For me, the whole point is to be out among people and make friends while dressed. I started going to GLBT bars because I quite reasonably beleived that I'd be better accepted and probably safer there than in a straight bar scene.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Hi,

I'm I.S. (intersexed) and attend many different TG meetings to assist in the transition process of TS and IS women.

There are a plethra of CD's that attend and attempt to align themselves with the TS/IS crowd.

Many proclaim that they struggle like TS/IS women do concerning life's events and I have to point out that is in no way true.

Cross dressers are exactly that. Most are heterosexual white men with no intentions of ever transitioning because they have nothing to transition to. They are men, that is what they are.

There's nothing wrong with being what you re but there is something terrably wrong about cross dressing men attempting to co opt the TS/IS struggle in an attempt to somehow gain public legitimacy for exactly what they are not.

You see a large and growing movement of TS/IS women distancing themselves from the umbrella term "transgender" because of men attempting to include themselves within the framework of women that have a birth defect.

The cross dresser does not know the discrimination of coming out at work as a woman and having your co workers laugh, threaten, bully or fire you because of what you are and your decision to transition.

The cross dresser does not know the pain of losing everything and evreyone close to them due to the TS or IS woman's decision to transition.

The cross dresser does not care to alter his body by hormone therapy and or surgeries in order to survive. They don't have to, their bodies are already correct for their mind.

The cross dresser does not deal with the reality of an ever increasing suicide rate because of the extreme loss, rejection and lack of future employment prospects that the majority of TS and IS women have to face.

Cross dressers do not live full time as a woman so they do not have to face the threat of violence that too many transitioned TS and IS women have to face on a daily basis.

This is not a rant against cross dressers but a response to those cross dressers that think they have political and social struggles that are the same as TS and IS women.

I have many cross dressers I call friends. None of them think they are somehow alligned with TS and IS women.

We can live socially with one another and that's about the extent of connection we have with one another.


Julia

[Mikaela]

Julia, I have to disagree with some of what you said, but even when I do, it's a disagreement on degree or semantics. I'm not saying you are WRONG, I just believe that we do have some points of similarity even when you feel we don't. Keep in mind CDs have our own spectrum as well.

If I was growing up with the info and financial resources I have now, I'd have considered therapy, treatment, and hrt. I may very well have transitioned. It may have been the wrong decision, but it would have been considered. I don't feel the revulsion of my body that most TSs I've spoken to do, but I often get dysphoria and things don't seem to be right. That's not the same as someone who likes panties or stockings. Does that make me a TS? No, but it is why I've felt more in common with some TSs than many CDs. But there is a reason when people ask me what I am, I usually say "Just a CD," and that is because I recognize the difference.

There is nothing wrong with co-opting the struggle, so to speak. TS people are piggybacking off the gay/lesbians. I'd considered a sexuality struggle being different than a gender rights issue, but that's just me. To the people who are ignorant and opposed, we're all sick in the head drag queens anyway. Spend 10 minutes on FARK when a TS issue comes up and you'll see the greatness of humanity.

Going to cut out the words in your quotes that don't apply...

"The cross dresser does not know the discrimination of coming out at work as a woman and having your co workers laugh, threaten, bully or fire you because of what you are. The cross dresser does not know the pain of losing everything and evreyone close to them due to [outing themselves]"

Uh, considering I've heard comments at work about drag queens, I'd disagree. And yes, we can be fired for it covertly or an alternate reason be found. We're all seen as perverts or 'fags' regardless of our reasons. There are real consequences to us outting ourselves. The primary difference here is a TS must out themselves to transition, while we get a choice to hide it or not do something stupid to risk it (underdress). There's a reason we feel guilt and shame and secrecy, why we purge. So no, it's not exactly the same, but there are enough points of comparison to more than adequately empathize.

"The cross dresser does not care to alter his body by hormone therapy and or surgeries in order to survive. They don't have to, their bodies are already correct for their mind. "
Some CDs do it for aesthetics (of which I disagree). I know of some myself in person. Others, like me, do have dysphoria. Maybe whatever causes transsexualism can have degrees associated with it. I don't know.

"Cross dressers do not live full time as a woman so they do not have to face the threat of violence that too many transitioned TS and IS women have to face on a daily basis."

Again, I disagree, but only in semantic degrees. No, we generally don't live full time as a woman or deal with it daily, but we do have the threat of violence every time we go out. I know of someone that was kidnapped and held for a couple days and raped and they are 'just a CD.' Just last weekend with my girlfriend in my arm, a guy came up to me and put his hand up my thigh under my skirt.

[Frédérique]

Can a CD really mix in with TG/TS socially?

[SIZE="2"]Only if THEY have a sense of humor… [/SIZE]

[Julia_in_Pa]

Mikaela,

Everything you have told me indicates that you are not a cross dresser.

My statement does not apply to you.

The last thing TS and IS people want is to be aligned with gay community. We have nothing in common with them just like we have nothing in common with cross dresers.

There is nothing to compare to when a TS or IS woman goes into the HR office at her work and proclaim she is not a he.
Only those that have done this can know what kind of gamble this is.
This is so foreign even to TS and IS women who aren't transitioning I shouldn't have even included it in my statement.

Concerning your groping, I'm sorry this happened.

I had this happen to me in Harrisburg, PA two years ago.

My friend grabbed his arm while I took out a hunting knife out of my purse.

My friend sat on him while I told him how his balls would look in the trash can after I cut them off.

The piece of Sh7t actually pissed his pants!!! LOL!!

We kicked him a few times when he was on the ground then we left.

Sometimes the best thing to do is confront while your in a group.

Be well sister.


Julia

Julia, I have to disagree with some of what you said, but even when I do, it's a disagreement on degree or semantics. I'm not saying you are WRONG, I just believe that we do have some points of similarity even when you feel we don't. Keep in mind CDs have our own spectrum as well.

If I was growing up with the info and financial resources I have now, I'd have considered therapy, treatment, and hrt. I may very well have transitioned. It may have been the wrong decision, but it would have been considered. I don't feel the revulsion of my body that most TSs I've spoken to do, but I often get dysphoria and things don't seem to be right. That's not the same as someone who likes panties or stockings. Does that make me a TS? No, but it is why I've felt more in common with some TSs than many CDs. But there is a reason when people ask me what I am, I usually say "Just a CD," and that is because I recognize the difference.

There is nothing wrong with co-opting the struggle, so to speak. TS people are piggybacking off the gay/lesbians. I'd considered a sexuality struggle being different than a gender rights issue, but that's just me. To the people who are ignorant and opposed, we're all sick in the head drag queens anyway. Spend 10 minutes on FARK when a TS issue comes up and you'll see the greatness of humanity.

Going to cut out the words in your quotes that don't apply...

"The cross dresser does not know the discrimination of coming out at work as a woman and having your co workers laugh, threaten, bully or fire you because of what you are. The cross dresser does not know the pain of losing everything and evreyone close to them due to [outing themselves]"

Uh, considering I've heard comments at work about drag queens, I'd disagree. And yes, we can be fired for it covertly or an alternate reason be found. We're all seen as perverts or 'fags' regardless of our reasons. There are real consequences to us outting ourselves. The primary difference here is a TS must out themselves to transition, while we get a choice to hide it or not do something stupid to risk it (underdress). There's a reason we feel guilt and shame and secrecy, why we purge. So no, it's not exactly the same, but there are enough points of comparison to more than adequately empathize.

"The cross dresser does not care to alter his body by hormone therapy and or surgeries in order to survive. They don't have to, their bodies are already correct for their mind. "
Some CDs do it for aesthetics (of which I disagree). I know of some myself in person. Others, like me, do have dysphoria. Maybe whatever causes transsexualism can have degrees associated with it. I don't know.

"Cross dressers do not live full time as a woman so they do not have to face the threat of violence that too many transitioned TS and IS women have to face on a daily basis."

Again, I disagree, but only in semantic degrees. No, we generally don't live full time as a woman or deal with it daily, but we do have the threat of violence every time we go out. I know of someone that was kidnapped and held for a couple days and raped and they are 'just a CD.' Just last weekend with my girlfriend in my arm, a guy came up to me and put his hand up my thigh under my skirt.

[Lorileah]

Wow, here we go again. First to answer the OP. If they are at a bar, it is doubtful they would object to you being there. That said, I think maybe you need to understand the bar scene. The TS's who are transitioning usually don't hang in the environment. What you may be seeing are sex workers more than TS's (and yes I will divide them into two groups as long as we are throwing stones) or people on the prowl. In that case you will be unwelcome because you are encroaching.

Now in RE: the rest of this, you know people we are all in the same boat, you can row together or you can flounder. This isn't just the TG vs TS thing. It is life. If after surgery you feel that you don't need to stand up for people who are discriminated against or in any fashion kept down then you are welcome to join the majority of people who don't care until someone knocks on their door to take away or deny a right. 40 years ago people stood up for equal rights. They didn't look at color, religion, sex or any of that. It was a pipe dream I know but what little that was gained was because they saw that we are all one.

[Mikaela]

Well I'm something... just doesnt seem so black and white to me. Then again, maybe I'm just doing that to myself.

The guy who touched me was threatened with a punch. He tried being all bravado, but then my gf threatened him. He left.

The last thing TS and IS people want is to be aligned with gay community. We have nothing in common with them just like we have nothing in common with cross dresers.

I know, but the fact is, GLBT is an acronym for a reason. I agree with how you feel though.

There is nothing to compare to when a TS or IS woman goes into the HR office at her work and proclaim she is not a he.
Only those that have done this can know what kind of gamble this is.

Agreed.

[arbon]

Mikaela,


The last thing TS and IS people want is to be aligned with gay community. We have nothing in common with them just like we have nothing in common with cross dresers.

Julia

I don't have a problem with it at all.

Have many gay friends and some cd friends because we do have lots in common.

If you have nothing in common with CD's then why be here?

[Julia_in_Pa]

There's actually a TS section.

I see many cross dressers posting in that forum.

When I see the term TS in a thread title in the CD area it makes it inclusive of the TS community.

Now you know.

Now go forth with knowledge Arbon.


Julia

I don't have a problem with it at all.

Have many gay friends and some cd friends because we do have lots in common.

If you have nothing in common with CD's then why be here?

[Violetgray]

I'd keep the under dressing to yourself. A TS Woman doesn't want to hear about your undergarments and most CDs don't care or don't want to hear it either. You may want a pic of your femme self accessible on your phone if the conversation goes that way, but focus on connecting with the person on more things than wigs and panties, please.

This is one of the most important things that have been said here so far. if you come in as a man and mention that you are underdressed, the first thing they are going to think is "fetishist!" There is nothing wrong with being a fetishist, but it is at its core a sexual thing, and it may make them uncomfortable.

Now Julia,

You've said some things here that I believe are misguided. While there are some very significant fundamental differences between TS and CD girls, we have a lot more in common than you realize. Is it harder to be a TS than a CD? As far as I can tell, definitely. But TS's and CD's have BOTH lost wives, jobs, and relatives because of who they are.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, while not ALL of what a TS goes through is shared by CD's, some of it is.

Also, TS's wanting to distance themselves politically from cd's, gays, and lesbians is crazy talk. Why? because the people who are our enemies don't give a damn what makes us different from each other. Here's a conversation that has never happened:

"We're gonna kick your ass fag!"

"Hold on boys. I'm not a transsexual, just a crossdresser."

"Oh. Nevermind then."

They look at gays and transpeople the way that the KKK looks at blacks and hispanics.

[Bree-asaurus]

This is one of the most important things that have been said here so far. if you come in as a man and mention that you are underdressed, the first thing they are going to think is "fetishist!" There is nothing wrong with being a fetishist, but it is at its core a sexual thing, and it may make them uncomfortable.

Now Julia,

You've said some things here that I believe are misguided. While there are some very significant fundamental differences between TS and CD girls, we have a lot more in common than you realize. Is it harder to be a TS than a CD? As far as I can tell, definitely. But TS's and CD's have BOTH lost wives, jobs, and relatives because of who they are.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, while not ALL of what a TS goes through is shared by CD's, some of it is.

Also, TS's wanting to distance themselves politically from cd's, gays, and lesbians is crazy talk. Why? because the people who are our enemies don't give a damn what makes us different from each other. Here's a conversation that has never happened:

"We're gonna kick your ass fag!"

"Hold on boys. I'm not a transsexual, just a crossdresser."

"Oh. Nevermind then."

They look at gays and transpeople the way that the KKK looks at blacks and hispanics.

I know that especially locally, people from all over the LGBT spectrum come out to support each other. Our local trans support group is open to anyone. We have members of the LGB community fighting for our rights just as we have members for the T community fighting for LGB rights.

What we all have in common is that we are having our rights and our freedoms taken away simply because we are different and we are not understood.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

my best 2 friends are cd...one married, one divorced... we get along great..i got to know them when i felt i was only crossdressing..

all the politics is bs... friends are friends, people are people..

no doubt that cd's often feel the need to compare to ts and flirt with ideas like hrt and transition...i talk about this with my friends all the time..
when we talk it is crystal clear to all of us that transition and crossdressing are incomparable in almost every way.. its simply understood.

anyway, ts women that are living successfully transitioned lives are rarely in social settings that are specifically for tg's...if i go, its to see old friends...

there are very few tg places out there..
if you find them just go and enjoy yourself.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Bree,

Remember what Barney Frank did to trans people in 2007 when he threw us under the bus to get ENDA passed ??????

Gay people are aligned with us really?????

I beg of you to reconsider your position.'

[Bree-asaurus]

Bree,

Remember what Barney Frank did to trans people in 2007 when he threw us under the bus to get ENDA passed ??????

Gay people are aligned with us really?????

I beg of you to reconsider your position.'

There are bad apples everywhere you look. You might as well hate EVERY variety of human being out there because I'm sure at least one of each has wronged you in some way.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Barney Frank is a congressman with much power Bree.

He's not the local twink down at the corner gay bar.

His actions still cause problems for the U.S. TS/IS population over four years later.

I'm not a real fan of the human animal. I've seen what it can do to destroy.


Julia

[Bree-asaurus]

Barney Frank is a congressman with much power Bree.

He's not the local twink down at the corner gay bar.

His actions still cause problems for the U.S. TS/IS population over four years later.

I'm not a real fan of the human animal. I've seen what it can do to destroy.


Julia

I understand that, but just because one gay in power isn't looking out for us means we should stay away from gays everywhere?

We have gay activist groups here in san antonio busting their butts to get us respect and equal rights. They've been fighting to get gender redefined and proper bathroom privileges in our local colleges so young trans people can feel comfortable in their schools.

But we should shun them and tell them to screw off because one of "their kind" has his head up his ass?

[DebbieL]

You can see from the wide variety of responses that there are as many different possible reactions as there are people. This is as it should be, every PERSON is different. Transgender was a term designed to be inclusive, but it also acknowledges that there is a spectrum from boys who want to be girls and will do whatever it takes to do it (TS in transition or post-op TS). Ironically, many times a Post-Op TS will begin to avoid the TS/TG/TV scene, because they are now living as what they are, a woman.

At the other extreme of the scale are the men who like wearing women's clothing, but maybe only certain items, or maybe only prior to or during sex. The rest of their lives, they want to be men, and have no desire to even consider transition.

And then there is that HUGE grey area, the men who want to be women, but don't want to do what it takes to make the transition, or are afraid they wouldn't be satisfied with the result. It's much easier to enjoy the fantasy of becoming a woman than it is to actually become one.

Within that spectrum we have those who are afraid of consequences, so they ONLY underdress in public. Then there are the werewolves who only come out when the moon is full (or new so they won't be seen), and the vampires (who only come out at night, once or twice a week), and the night-owls (who dress full-fem at least once a day), and the part-timers (who dress as much as they can), and the 128ers (the only time they DON'T dress is when they are at work).

Full-timers are those who have taken the bold step toward transition. They may have made many sacrifices to come this far, and they have had to deal with consequences that would make most people too upset to go on. They have to have great courage, commitment, and compassion. They also know what it's like to be a woman, because only their closest friends and lovers actually know what's under the skirt.

Many of those who have reached the point where they are making public appearances, have also started other measures such as hair removal, facial electrolysis, hormones of various types, posture and voice lessons, and often some intense coaching from another TS or another woman who is very supportive.

However, many of those who have gone further up the TG/TS Ladder also remember those early days, when they were terrified to talk to anybody, and never knew there were people like them. They remember how hard it was to approach their first TS or TG and just have any kind of conversation. They had a million questions that have been plaguing them for years, even decades, and they get so excited that someone is finally there who might be able to answer some of these questions - that they often look like love-sick puppies - not because they are in love, but because they are so desperately wanting to ask those questions and to have someone who might really understand what it's like for them, to answer those questions.

It may be a bit hard for them to remember that first time they could actually talk to someone who understood. It may remind them of their own pain, the time when they didn't know what they were, and were afraid of what they were. They may even remember their own experiences of being rejected, or their first attempts to come out, and some of the painful memories that brought back. They might even try to discourage you, because they don't want you to have to experience that kind of emotional pain, unless you really ARE transsexual.

I remember struggling for decades. Even at 40 years old, I was being told that since I was attracted to women, I couldn't make it as a transsexual. I went through my own version of pain, and struggled. When I finally found someone who was accepting, I hung on way to long, even when they stopped being supportive. I wasted 10 years with one woman, and 15 years with another. At the same time, there was so much growth in so many areas.

I was a 128er when I stopped, because I was told I couldn't be a leader, I couldn't make a difference, I couldn't do the things I thought were important, unless I burned the wardrobe. But I was still Debbie inside. But the more I resisted letting Debbie out, the more I struggled with my weight, appearance, and health issues. Finally, after surviving a heart attack and a stroke, and impacting the lives of hundreds of millions of people anonymously, I finally realized that I had to let Debbie out. When my dad was about to die, he said "I want you to be yourself". From that moment on, I stopped hiding Debbie. I even started dressing up femme while I was taking care of him. He was glad to see who I had become, and could see that I was so much happier this way.

I think the real issue is that nobody wants to try and force you to go where you don't want to go. You may not be ready yet, or you may be perfectly content as you are. I suspect that since you are asking these kinds of questions in these kinds of groups, that you may be one of those who wants to go further than you are willing to admit, even to yourself.

So yes, I would strongly recommend that you explore your options, find some clubs or meetings where you can meet other TS and TGs, and see who is willing to listen to you, and answer your questions. At very minimum, it could be the beginning of a wonderful friendship.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Barney Frank is a congressman with much power Bree.

He's not the local twink down at the corner gay bar.

His actions still cause problems for the U.S. TS/IS population over four years later.

I'm not a real fan of the human animal. I've seen what it can do to destroy.


Julia

twink?? wow, that kind of tells me where you are coming from.. do you think we don't know who barney frank is??

have you considered moving to a private island where no one can bother you?

[Cari]

Yes and I have and enjoyed the experience.
Its absolutely possible to all get along.

You need to remember that T's are just a slice of the whole population.
You will find folks who don't get along and ones who have a chip on their shoulder.
there are also allot of really good people to hang out with.

If you don't like the scene at one bar try another; reach out to some locals over the net and get some advice.
In general I have been treated as I have treated others, same as any other group :-)