Can a CD really mix in with TG/TS socially?

[Violetgray]

Bree,

Remember what Barney Frank did to trans people in 2007 when he threw us under the bus to get ENDA passed ??????

Gay people are aligned with us really?????

I beg of you to reconsider your position.'

So gays and transpeople do not share anything in common because a prominent gay politician did something that hurt the trans community? That means ALL gays and transpeople have nothing significant in common? What about the gays and trans people that aren't involved in politics? Both have to come out to their parents, both get beaten up, both have narrow-minded interpretations of religion thrown at them.

(trying to stay on subject here) one thing I think that gays, TS's, and Cd's all have in common is that we are ALL persecuted for gender transgressions. Cd's look like the wrong gender. Ts's identify as the wrong gender. Gays love the wrong gender. So at the very least Donna, I would hope they'd feel some sort of connection based on a mutual desire for tolerance and being non-judgemental.

[Marissa333]

So gays and transpeople do not share anything in common because a prominent gay politician did something that hurt the trans community? That means ALL gays and transpeople have nothing significant in common? What about the gays and trans people that aren't involved in politics? Both have to come out to their parents, both get beaten up, both have narrow-minded interpretations of religion thrown at them.

(trying to stay on subject here) one thing I think that gays, TS's, and Cd's all have in common is that we are ALL persecuted for gender transgressions. Cd's look like the wrong gender. Ts's identify as the wrong gender. Gays love the wrong gender. So at the very least Donna, I would hope they'd feel some sort of connection based on a mutual desire for tolerance and being non-judgemental.

very well said Violet!

There are a lot of pissed people in this thread, the only thing I am pissed about, is that no one has mentioned the name or address of this club where all the hot T-girls are!

[Rianna Humble]

Gay people are aligned with us really?????

Have you read the history of the Stonewall riots? If Gays had been so standoffish as you seem to think, there would have been no riots when the Stonewall police decided to rough up the TG folk in the bar where it all kicked off. Remember the police had let the Gays and Lesbians leave unmolested. The protest was by Gays and Lesbians and was sparked because the police were discriminating against the trans folk in the bar.

What do you think that the LGB folk get from adding T folk into their campaigning? I know it is not kudos.

[Julia_in_Pa]

My fiance is a gay woman. She is an exception to the rule when it comes to acceptance of trans men and women.

The womyn festivals where the lesbian community gather each year for music, political and social interaction barred TS and IS women from participating until a court order was handed to them forcing them to accept TS and IS women.

There is a well known divide in political arms for gay people and their lack of knowledge of TS and IS issues.

I should know, I've attempted to teach them about our plight and our challenges to no avail.

We are as foreign to them as they are to us.

The Stonewall riots and the inclusion of "transgendered" people within that situation were mostly documented as gay men in drag.
Please read the history of such.

Sadly Ts and IS people are on their own in the overwhelming majority of life's challenges despite words to the contrary.

There once was a time where I was as trusting as all of you then reality happened.

If transition has taught me anything it is to assume everyone is an enemy outside the TS/IS circle until it is proven otherwise.

This is just smart thinking.

To believe otherwise is to be extremely fool hearty with your life and downright dangerous to your physical health.

When your TS/IS if you don't rely on yourself your as good as dead. Take that as gospel.


Julia

[qewrill]

Yes, we all should be sisters or brothers in this. We need to be a family. There are more people agasint us...then for us.

[Johnnifer]

Can crossdressers mix with TS's socially? Yes, at least in real life. I been to Tiffany Club in Auburn a few times and we mixed fairly well, although the TG range itself was well mixed their creating a spectrum.

Online I find that except for the most woman centered of them, TS's often dominate TG themed chats and push others to the sidelines. So many times I went online to TG support chats only to find them clueless on crossdresser issues and the whole chat dominated by things that mainly focus on TS interest.

As for gay/TG rivalry due to questioning both sexuality and gender I got hurt by both sides. Many TG people get very very very defensive on the idea of a non strait who prefers men in their midst. It's as if they think one will make everyone see them as gay. Just say you like guys and identify as male on a typical TG chat and you'd get people posting just to say how strait (or bi but FEMALE bi) they are.

On the other hands gays are all about macho and if you like dressing or the ideas of men dressing or acting feminine you end up shunned with no one to turn to.

Both sides forget one needs not be strait to crossdress.

[Rianna Humble]

The Stonewall riots and the inclusion of "transgendered" people within that situation were mostly documented as gay men in drag.
Please read the history of such.

They were documented as "gay men in drag" by the same sort of people who would call you a gay man.

The authoritative histories tell the truth.

[AllieSF]

Yes you can as others here have already stated. Socialize to me means talking about whatever, being a human being and just interacting with others. No need to bring up the TG/TS/CD side unless you absolutely need to. Start as a conversation and then see where it leads. I personally interface with all types of strangers when I am out and we get into very deep conversations about my lifestyle, theirs and that of other third parties. I have had no problems doing that with all from complete strangers (most), to straight, LGBT, tourists, locals, who ever. The success in the conversation will depend on your tact and communication skills.

Now if your question is about whether you could be good acquaintances who will meet periodically and hang out together, then the situation could be different. One reason is to meet someone and strike up a conversation, the other is to actually be able to click together enough to want to meet again. There are many reasons for that, including incompatible personalities and maybe one's own exclusion of who they decide to associate with. I personally am open to pretty much all types as long as our personalities and characters align in some way.

[Proteus]

I think part of the conflict in this thread comes from using the term CD for dressing for purely non-gender reasons. Lots of bigendered or androgynous people who find themselves in the transgender spectrum do in fact use the term CD to describe themselves. I think the whole point of the term was to be more neutral and inclusive than words like transvestite, which carries too many connotations like pervert, exhibitionist, drag queen, etc.

Personally I like to describe myself as bigendered. I miss my female expression sorely when I have to revert to male mode, but I don't feel like I can discard one gender and fully embrace the other. Maybe it will change with time, but in the meantime I hope I can still be considered worthy by the transgender community.

[Lunchbox]

Sounds like flawed logic to me, that a cd and a ts/tg cant get along. More often then not it would be personailty conflicts between people, not for the sole reason im a crossdresser and theyre a transexual.

[sometimes_miss]

I think like anything else, as long as you respect others and how they feel, you'll probably be accepted by most of them. Example: Many years ago, I double dated with a friend who's new GF was bi; her friend that I was paired with was clearly butch, and we acknowledged each other early on that it was going to be an 'interesting' evening. I had a great time. The last place we wound up was a female gay bar; the woman I was with owned the place, and had to go to check everything including closing it down, so the last few hours I never saw her. But everyone else was very nice, I sat at the bar and talked to some of the girls, played pool, pretty much like any other bar experience even though I knew there was no one there that was 'looking for a guy like me'. At the end of the night, I even walked a couple of the girls out to their cars (by request, for safety reasons).
I've always gotten along with gay people quite well.
There will always be a few nuts in any group. But I think most TS/TG folks would tolerate CD's just fine.

[msginaadoll]

I believe that we as individuals can get along if we choose. We may or may not find out that we have anything in common with each other but that goes deeper than dressing. We all are individuals. I do disagree that one group whether it is transsexual, transvestite, crossdresser, etc has had more pain than another. All of us have known pain all of us have known loss. There are crossdressers who have lost because of there dressing. Why do we ever want to compare who has been hurt more who has felt more pain.... Thats like saying because I lost my leg you dont have the pain because u only have diabetes.

[RachelOKC]

This "CD vs TS" stuff always amuses and annoys me at the same time. There is absolutely no reason why people of different beliefs, life situations, or WHATEVER can't socially interact and be good friends especially if they simply respect one another. It happens every day and those of us who do have friends all across the gender (and plenty of other) spectrum can only shake our heads at fools who somehow argue otherwise. Would you argue that Jews and Muslims can't be friends? Blacks and whites? Conservative and liberal? Ridiculous, uninformed, and narrow minded.

People are a whole lot more complicated than one aspect of their personality and successful relationships work because there is at least some common ground somewhere. If you can't find common ground with other people then perhaps your standards are too exacting or you're not trying hard enough to get to know people. And if you're simply dismissing other people based on your intolerance of who they are...then you might just be a bigot.

[ReineD]

The way I look at it, Cds and TGs and Ts's are all seated on the same feminine bus - just in differing sections and with differing levels of commitment.

How well do CD'ers mix in a TG/TS setting? Has anybody had exposure to such an experience? Can you advise me what I might expect?

First of all, "TG" is an umbrella term for anyone who crosses the gender lines: CD, TS (transmen & transwomen) quenderqueer, bigender, etc. Just so you know, "TG" is not synonymous with "TS", nor is it an "in-between" state between a CD and a TS. If someone is struggling and hasn't figured out whether they are CD or TS, a better term for this person is "TS Questionning".

Second, there's a wide range of CDs: some have perfected the art of transforming themselves and appear quite natural dressed. They dress like regular GGs. Others feel they will never pass, either because of their physiognomy or they don't go out that often and haven't invested the $$ & time it takes to successfully blend or pass. And still others dress for fetish. I say this just to let you know that just because someone passes well, it doesn't mean they are TS.

And last, different groups have different dynamics. I've heard horror stories in here from TSs who really don't respect CDs. But I've got to say that my SO belongs to a wonderful TG support group (I say "TG" because there is a healthy mix of both CDs and TSs), and everyone gets along very well. Some of the TSs there have had SRS, others are 24/7 pre-op, plus there is a wide range of CDs from those who've been at it for years and pass very well, to those who are fairly new and don't pass so well, and I'm sure a few "TS Questioning" as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So there you have it! It depends on the group. I have a feeling though that people will likely be more polite in real life than they are, when hiding behind the anonymity of a large forum.

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EDIT

We can live socially with one another and that's about the extent of connection we have with one another.

Wasn't that the OP's question? What is the likelihood of everyone getting along? I appreciate that you've had a difficult life, but to constantly get on the soapbox dismissing the struggles that CDs go though is getting a little tiresome.

Oh, and BTW, CDs are not just white males. There are CDs in all cultures, and they do need just as much legal protection as anyone else.

[nylon boy]

In my experience 90% of tg/ts cd's are some of the nicest and understanding people you can meet,at the end of the day we are all in the same boat ;-)

[Starling]

I identify as TS and I've been dysphoric for as long as I remember, well before I ever had a name to put to it. Gender difference was such a taboo that I didn't know anyone else like me, and therefore I felt completely alone. I gravitated to gay people and others who were not "average," because I was an outsider myself; and that's why it puzzles me that there can be so much rancor among sex and gender minorities.

One thing we all definitely face, to our peril, is a widespread belief among the general public that we are all dangerous perverts, like child molesters or rapists. This alone would be enough to signify a community of interest: that we do not victimize others, just by being ourselves.

Perhaps the very fact that society has evolved to the point where we can live more openly has engendered this fractionization. If so, I hope it's just a phase we're going through.

Lallie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

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So there you have it! It depends on the group. I have a feeling though that people will likely be more polite in real life than they are, when hiding behind the anonymity of a large forum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:

This pretty much sums it up....

[marlaNYC]

in my experience, yes. there's a couple of places here where all mix, where it's open and friendly and welcoming of all types. also from my experience, where the mix was CD heavy, i observed that it tends to be more sexually slanted and fetish-y. perhaps that's just an element of this city. it's kinda unfortunate that i've felt creeped out by some of the propositions i received at such events, but it's ok - i can cope. it doesn't make for a great or comfortable social night, though. TS/TG slanted nights/events have been far more relaxed and less 'charged'. again, this is purely from my own experiences and i can't speak for anyone else but myself.

different time and place, but when i was first a part of any scene in London, everyone mixed in together and were welcoming and encouraging and friendly with each other. straight, gay, CD, TS, punk, goth, all colors of skin - everyone. gatherings where friends became friends, looked out for friends and cared not one jot about any persuasions. we were all in it together, the alienated, disaffected and dissatisfied youth all trying to find out way and our place. naive and wonderful.

[DebbieL]

Bree,
Remember what Barney Frank did to trans people in 2007 when he threw us under the bus to get ENDA passed ??????

Consider the demographics of states that protect anybody.


Rights Map

New Jersey had people like me, and later Rue Paul who came to New Jersey and made regular public appearances and let the public know about our gender identity situation. Several of the pharma companies that produce HRT products are located in NJ as well. AT&T was one of the first companies to have an official policy of supporting transsexuals during transition. Shortly before divestature, the had several transsexual MtFs who transitioned while keeping their jobs. Many of them stayed with AT&T and went on to get a number of additional patents.

Several IT and technology companies have discovered that TGs and TSs have an unusual capacity for inventive or creative thought. They have a strong technical background because they didn't socialize with boys and weren't allowed to socialize with girls, so they did a LOT of reading. Since most fiction would be frustrating, they read a LOT of NON-FICTION books. But since they questioned their very gender and sexuality, they also learned to challenge the status quo, learning to create things that had been thought to be impossible.

Having to keep their sexual identity a secret growing up also made them good at keeping secrets of others. Making them better candidates for research projects.

Colorado and New Mexico had a Gender Reassignment center in Trinidad NM, about 20 miles south of the Colorado border. Many came to Trinidad and then moved to Denver, where there was a very large GLBT community (several times larger than San Francisco or NYC by area).

In Nevada, many TS work as Show Girls, Waitresses, and as dancers. California is a popular place for facial feminization surgery as well as a good place to make money in adult video.

Chicago is also another large urban area where many transgendered people have settled as well as a good place for transmen. Many of the other states that only protect against sexual preference, also protect against PERCEIVED sexual preference, for example, if you're a feminine man, they can't fire you because you would be perceived as gay.

Gay people are aligned with us really?????
I beg of you to reconsider your position.'

Barney Frank had to decide whether to try and push the transgender issue or whether to try for a bill that had a much better chance of passing. Many states that passed the "Perceived Sexuality" portion of the sexual preference protection were able to use that clause to extend protection to transsexuals and transgendered.

Unfortunately, opponents of the Transgender protection like to use images of drag queens like Rue Paul or Lady Bunny teaching in a classroom. Most transsexuals get so good at passing that most of them would never know that the woman teaching their kids math or science was once a man, and maybe even still has a few man-parts left.

[eluuzion]

Colorado and New Mexico had a Gender Reassignment center in Trinidad NM, about 20 miles south of the Colorado border. Many came to Trinidad and then moved to Denver, where there was a very large GLBT community (several times larger than San Francisco or NYC by area).

Just a little geographic clarification here…Trinidad is in Colorado. Not exactly a popular tourist attraction, lol. If you are going south on I-25 to NM or AZ, don’t blink or you will miss it. Yes it certainly earned a reputation for surgery.

It is close to a town called Cokedale. Let’s see…if Trinidad earned a reputation as the
“Sex Change Capital”…then what do you suppose Cokedale is famous for? Hehehe…never mind, just a thought. lol

Moving onto topic…

Knives, kicking, bar fights…you all hang with a pretty tough crowd around here, lol. Sounds like the Wild Wild east. Glad I live in the West. Maybe I should be wearing a six-shooter on my hip with that LBD. Some of the recent threads make it sound like a war out there, lol.

Maybe I just don’t take life quite as seriously as I should, but there is little hope in changing my attitude in this lifetime. I was neck-deep in the art world for many years when I lived in Colorado Springs…well actually Cascade (in mtns at base of Pikes Peak). I had an art glass studio and later a national wholesale art glass lamp mfg company. Some of you probably still have lamps in your house that I made, lol.

I was not CDing in those days, but my partner was Bi-Lesbian (mostly Lesbian I guess). Most of our “gang” consisted of lesbian friends and my social life was full of every gender variation discussed on this forum as well as a few with their own creative descriptions. Frankly, it was just too complex for anybody to worry about “what” any particular person “was”. It did not really matter to most of the people I knew. Nobody really cared.

The “gang” would always be hanging out in gay or alternative bars. I was typically the “straight” lone ranger at most places we frequented. I was the source of amusement many times for the mixed crowd at the (mostly gay) bars, but it was always friendly and fun for everyone.

I never felt threatened or witnessed anything close to a “gender standoff”. I believe you can have fun with just about anybody in any venue if you have the right attitude. I t don’t feel like I have anything to “defend” or “prove” to anybody. I can fit in just about anyplace with anyone. But wherever I go, I go with a mission of making friends.

It works for me…

FYI...
Index of jurisdictions with Explicitly TG-Inclusive Non-Discrimination Laws
http://www.thetaskforce.org/download...w_pop_8_08.pdf

Index of Maps/Lists of State Laws & Policies (LGBT related) on bathrooms, workplace etc.
http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/m...-laws-policies

[Kaz]

I have recently been advised to walk away from these threads as they really get to me and I may respond inappropriately... oh yeah!

My take on what I have read on the threads is simply this. Whenever a CD attempts to open a thread about the broader issue of TG... there is an immediate attack by some of the TS community. It is happening on every post. This would imply, at least to me, that there is a fundamental issue.

Some TS and IS?.. forgive me I am from Yorkshire UK... IS is Information Systems... I suspect that this is different (I await the verbal attack that will now ensue as I have admitted that I am not genned up on all the terminology, and thereby I am not a legitimate part of whatever 'group' this is?)....

My reading is simple... TS regard all CDs with contempt. Discuss.

[*Vanessa*]

.
This is a stupid thread and I will meet anyone outside who thinks otherwise!

Plan enough?

[Rianna Humble]

TS regard all CDs with contempt. Discuss.

Kaz, please do not attempt to derail this thread beyond what has already happened.

If you want to start a flame war about such puerile statements, it would be better done in a thread of your own making.

[Sally24]

To answer AKADonna instead of hijacking her thread for political purposes......

I don't know if the TS ladies you saw years ago were "professionals" or not. Either way, as long as you don't seem to be competing, or scaring away the clientel I'm sure they would be friendly in such a social setting. In New England the only issue regarding CD/TS relations is that some of the TS gradually want to just fade into the woodwork. That's their choice and I don't have a problem with that. The ones that choose to live openly still come out with us and have a good time. Other than that we work hand in hand politically. If you asked the organizations here about distancing themselves from the CD folk they would just stare at you and ask why! We are all friends and have common goals. Are we identical? Of course not. But we are polite social people with common likes and needs and we come together to appreciate our differences. Not all gay people like us or understand us. That doesn't keep us from enjoying their company. Our favorite club before it closed was a lesbian (women's alternate lifestyle as the club advertised it) bar. The girls who liked us danced and talked with us and had a grand time. Those that didn't just kept to themselves and didn't make any show of their dislike. I'm assuming this as we never even got mean looks or anything.

Most good clubs try to keep the atmosphere friendly and safe. Anything else just loses them money. The bouncers are your friends in most cases and will eject trouble makers as long as you keep your wits about you. And you might want to leave any thoughts of hunting knives at home. Just about everywhere that is a concealed weapon and will get you a free nights stay.

Go out and have fun. Just try not to be alone on the street, safety in numbers.

[RachelOKC]

My reading is simple... TS regard all CDs with contempt. Discuss.

Oy vey.

Clearly one or two (so-called) TS'es speak authoritatively for all of their community and clearly one or two (so-called) CD's speak authoritatively for all of their community. Yeah, or not. Those of us who are happy to have friends of all gender identities are just as happy to tell the gender apartheidists "oh well, your loss."