Double Standards

[Cindy M]

Just an observation from life experiences as a man.
#1) If a woman is bisexual, guys are cool with that. Yeah! If a guy is bi, he's looked upon as an outcast in the guy world. Dang freak.
#2) I love throwing this out for discussion during B.S. sessions at work. Say you & your gal are watching a porno and 2 women are together, you expect your lady to keep watching. Now, the scene just changed to 2 guys together. Can't find the remote fast enough & that damn dvd is going in the trash!

Just my observations. #2 always brings good reactions when I throw that out there, along with "what's wrong with you?" LOL. Anyone else notice or have comments?

[Stephanie-L]

I have thought about these observations a few times myself, and generally they apply to me as well. But number 2 is the opposite for me, the wife is VERY anti-lesbian but gets hot on fantasies of me with another guy, part of the reason she is so against me CDing.......Stephanie

[Alicia_lynn419]

Often wondered about that myself....

[Megan70]

Just an observation from life experiences as a man.
. Now, the scene just changed to 2 guys together. ......Just my observations. #2 always brings good reactions when I throw that out there, along with "what's wrong with you?" LOL. Anyone else notice or have comments?

I am so glad you brought this up because i thought of another double standard that I am and many of us may be sheepishly guilty of and its this, with a clarification;
I can't stand effeminate men! I'm talking gay lip wristed lisping effeminate gesturing men who are NOT CD's, TV's TG's TS's or anything trans related where they need to act and talk that way to complete their presentation as a woman, like me when i go out as a woman. Now before anyone jumps on my case I want to make it absolutely clear that I have nothing against gay men and women. I've got a best friend who is a gay male who was an usher at my wedding 40 years ago and was straight then , but now he's my faux "date/husband" when we go out together as just good old friends several times a month to philharmonic concerts.He is as straight acting as I am as a male and as 95%of all gay men that I've known and been around in bars were we CD's have met to gather. I can rarely remember running into a flamer as they are called.
Double standard? Yes, but I did try to clarify it and should not be so judgmental about gay effeminate men, but I am.
Anyone else ever feel the same but embarrassed to admit it?
Megan

[Diane Elizabeth]

Cindy Jean I agree with you on that double standard. Back in the 80's when SO #2 and I were "swingers", I had noticed that it was okay for my SO and another female to get together for a romp. But, if I wanted to have a romp with another male then I would have been kicked out of the group. I couldn't even look at another guys equipment for too long or someone would notice and ask about it. I don't think it has changed any among most swinger groups that I have been aware of anyway.

[ashleyflats]

Donna- did you ever see the movie Borat? There's a scene in that where a dude freaks out on Borat for watching him in a group of swingers.

[Diane Elizabeth]

Ashley- I saw the trailers for this movie on TV and decided it was not one I care to see. The more absurd movies are not my cup of tea. I doubt I could sit thru it all.

[Persephone]

It is interesting, Cindy Jean, that you wrote "If a woman is bisexual, guys are cool with that. Yeah! If a guy is bi, he's looked upon as an outcast in the guy world."

Bisexual/lesbian women may be cool with guys, but most women are as negative towards that sort of intmacy as guys are about imagining themselves having gay sex.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Lorileah]

It gets even worse in my mind. Think of what men say when they want to insult another man. They use words that describe a sexual act. These are the same sexual acts the want their wives/SOs to do. So a guy doing it is an insult and woman doing it is heaven.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Interesting,

Just have sex with who you want.
I've enjoyed a very large number of both men and women.

I'm a Thelemite we follow the teachings of Alester Crowley we have a saying from our Book Of The Law which is "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

In other words find what you were meant to do regardless.

You want to have sex with a man? Enjoy!

You want sex with a woman? Enjoy!

There is no double standard if you do not acknowledge it.


Julia

[JulieK1980]

Cindy Jean I agree with you on that double standard. Back in the 80's when SO #2 and I were "swingers", I had noticed that it was okay for my SO and another female to get together for a romp. But, if I wanted to have a romp with another male then I would have been kicked out of the group. I couldn't even look at another guys equipment for too long or someone would notice and ask about it. I don't think it has changed any among most swinger groups that I have been aware of anyway.

Nope, no change. Still very much like that..

[Longing2be-Trisha]

That is so true about both sexes double standards.

Hugs

[cassandra54]

absolutely true. most guys think bi women are hot. most women think guys who are bi are not. there's more to it than that. i think women who are bi show a lot of affection towards each other while in the act of being intimate. bi guys not so much, in fact they are a little creepy. if you don't believe me check out the m4m personals on CL.

[Johnnifer]

The sexuality double standard annoys me. Everyone loves bi girls but treat bi guys like freaks.

Even many TG boards do that. Mention being male identified and liking men tangentially in passing and often someone will post a completely off topic post just to say how strait they are. This board is more open minded than most (most TG boards I see when sexuality gets mentioned everyone goes out of the way to say how they are either a strait male or bi female).

Of course lets not forget the big double standard here. Women can wear mens pants and shirts with no issues but men cannot wear female clothes.

[Johnnifer]

I can't stand effeminate men! I'm talking gay lip wristed lisping effeminate gesturing men who are NOT CD's, TV's TG's TS's or anything trans related where they need to act and talk that way to complete their presentation as a woman, like me when i go out as a woman. Now before anyone jumps on my case I want to make it absolutely clear that I have nothing against gay men and women. I've got a best friend who is a gay male who was an usher at my wedding 40 years ago and was straight then , but now he's my faux "date/husband" when we go out together as just good old friends several times a month to philharmonic concerts.He is as straight acting as I am as a male and as 95%of all gay men that I've known and been around in bars were we CD's have met to gather. I can rarely remember running into a flamer as they are called.
Double standard? Yes, but I did try to clarify it and should not be so judgmental about gay effeminate men, but I am.
Anyone else ever feel the same but embarrassed to admit it?
Megan

I do not mind feminine gays as long as they are not catty, in some rare cases their effeminancy can be cute. However when you find one who is catty and bitchy it is annoying as all hell.

Sadly effeminate men are an endangered species in the gay community as even most gay guys hate them and their has been a growing movement in the gay community towards masculinity. Before I went to gay clubs and such I only noticed the obvious (feminine acting) gay guys. Now I see they are a real minority and a dying breed. Their decline a part of the growing gap between gay and trans as gays try and prove their masculinity and TG's try and prove to the world they are not gay.

*Sigh* I long to find a way to meld the GLBT back together into a whole again, even if it means dragging them kicking and screaming and pressuring people to be in the middle ground the same way the current GLBT people pressure conformity. I just have no idea how to unify them as just one person. We need reverse peer pressure to counter the TG's are feminine, passing, and lean to things straits like (strait and lesbien relationships) and gays are manly and only like manly men pressure which creates the rift.

As long as the rift exists I do not think their will be a place I really fit.

[Proteus]

Donna- did you ever see the movie Borat? There's a scene in that where a dude freaks out on Borat for watching him in a group of swingers.

Wasn't that Bruno, when he's trying to become straight? Either way, brilliant films by a brilliant man. I recommend everyone to see it.

[Marleena]

Cindy, I am guilty of this. I love seeing two attractive women making out, it doesn't even need to get to sex and I'm horny as hell. Two guys does nothing for me, guilty as charged. Now effeminate gay guys was mentioned, I have a couple of them as online friends working with me on a non profit project, sometimes we use messenger with cams for conference. I was leary of these guys, but my best GG friend recommended them so I gave in. The one gay guy seems like an everyday male but the effeminate one is hilarious. I don't mind him at all. Both guys would give you the shirt off their back.

So stereotypes aside, I'm fine with the gay guys as long as they never hit on me. They know I'm not interested, but don't know I'm a CDer either.lol. Maybe being a CD'er makes me more tolerant of other lifestyles.

[Kaz]

Cindy, I am guilty of this. I love seeing two attractive women making out, it doesn't even need to get to sex and I'm horny as hell. Two guys does nothing for me, guilty as charged. Now effeminate gay guys was mentioned, I have a couple of them as online friends working with me on a non profit project, sometimes we use messenger with cams for conference. I was leary of these guys, but my best GG friend recommended them so I gave in. The one gay guy seems like an everyday male but the effeminate one is hilarious. I don't mind him at all. Both guys would give you the shirt off their back.

So stereotypes aside, I'm fine with the gay guys as long as they never hit on me. They know I'm not interested, but don't know I'm a CDer either.lol. Maybe being a CD'er makes me more tolerant of other lifestyles.

This resonates with me too. I find FtoF intimacy amazing and very erotic. I struggle with MtoM. Believe me I have tried! I have lots of male gay friends and try as I like I just am not there (yet?). I often wish I was, as it would make all this CDing thing so much simpler for me to accept.

Women appear on the whole to be very tolerant of gender variance in general (as long as it doesn't create too many tensions in their world - hit me Reine!)... men , on the other hand tend to be gender variant intolerant. The majority of male gays would appear to be cool with heterosexuals but less accepting of 'boundary blurring' which is what CDs do.

This may be at the heart of some other debates on the site, but it does identify a male/female gender split on their respective approaches to 'gender bending'.

I am not sure of the research in this area and need to check it out, but from what I have read, there are are more female bisexuals than male by a long way... and this supports this view.

I know that some of us want to blur the boundaries between male and female but there are some pretty strong biological antecendents that strengthen those differences.

[Johnnifer]

This resonates with me too. I find FtoF intimacy amazing and very erotic. I struggle with MtoM. Believe me I have tried! I have lots of male gay friends and try as I like I just am not there (yet?). I often wish I was, as it would make all this CDing thing so much simpler for me to accept.

Women appear on the whole to be very tolerant of gender variance in general (as long as it doesn't create too many tensions in their world - hit me Reine!)... men , on the other hand tend to be gender variant intolerant. The majority of male gays would appear to be cool with heterosexuals but less accepting of 'boundary blurring' which is what CDs do.

This may be at the heart of some other debates on the site, but it does identify a male/female gender split on their respective approaches to 'gender bending'.

I am not sure of the research in this area and need to check it out, but from what I have read, there are are more female bisexuals than male by a long way... and this supports this view.

I know that some of us want to blur the boundaries between male and female but there are some pretty strong biological antecendents that strengthen those differences.

I think part of this is due to male society and what it means to be a man in our society. In the US (not sure of other cultures) being a man is inherantly about being "not-gay". and by Gay in this sense it just doesn't mean actually homosexual but all the things society rightly or wrongly (mostly wrongly) associates with it such as femininity, being weak, being emotional, not being attracted to women, etc.

Not every society is this way. Many societies such have third gender roles assigned for TG's. Though most people on TG sites only pay attention to the Kathoey of Thailand as they pass well. Many others do not seem very concerned with passing at all and I like that view. It shows me TG is universal but many of the trappings we force into it are not. Third genders such as Berdache, Hijra, and fa'apafine go a long way to show the true diversity of gender expression and how TG differs and is alike across different cultures. I wish our culture was as accepting.

[Aprilrain]

Watching 2 chicks make out? (YAWN)
Watching 2 dudes make out? (no thanks)
Watching a guy and a girl make out? (better but still pretty boring)
Watching a guy and a girl have sex? HOT!

I can see were watching 2 girls might be entertaining for a heterosexual man. Men are very visual when it comes to sex anyway. Even though I consider myself Bi i almost never fantasize about woman so I guess i'm mostly hetero.

That people are surprised that such a double standard exist is funny to me. As someone else pointed out being a "man" is largely about defining what is NOT a man. No wonder young men are so often insecure in their masculinity and need to find violent and tragic ways to "prove" their manhood.

[KellyJameson]

I agree with Megan the limp wrist behavior makes me nuts but only because it feels like the person is not being genuine but playing a role learned from others by adopting exaggerated mannerisms and I do not feel like I'm actually meeting a real person but a carriture that does a disservice to gay men, own your sexuallity do not apologize for it but respect others in it's expression.

No surprise to me that male sexuallity is often viewed with disdain and double standards, nature made sure that most males at some point in their lives will be sex crazed addicts that the rest of the world must endure. These last words are a mixture of resentment and jealousy because nature seems to have skipped over me concerning this experience.

And as a component of the competitive instinct between men that is taught in childhood many fear that other guys are better in the sack than them, big,longer,more... ect so who wants their S.O getting ideas from porn. Male insecurity makes many of the rules everyone has to live by. And if that is not enough homophobia runs deep in many. Silly Boys !

[Sandy Michaels]

i am so tired of that double standard. i had an ex(female) who used to look at me and say "too bad you're not completly straight" i left her after she made a homophobic remark, and tried to "fix" me. i don't date anymore because of her, and also i'm mostly in th closet because i don't want to deal with that bull$#!+. another thing that bothers me, is that gay guys or straight women asume that i would cheat. because i have more 'options". they say being bi is the best of both worlds, but sometimes its the worst of both. at least i will never pretend to be gay or straight, to make my life easier. i'm a bisexual crossdresser, and proud of it.

[cassandra54]

I am so glad you brought this up because i thought of another double standard that I am and many of us may be sheepishly guilty of and its this, with a clarification;
I can't stand effeminate men! I'm talking gay lip wristed lisping effeminate gesturing men who are NOT CD's, TV's TG's TS's or anything trans related where they need to act and talk that way to complete their presentation as a woman, like me when i go out as a woman. Now before anyone jumps on my case I want to make it absolutely clear that I have nothing against gay men and women. I've got a best friend who is a gay male who was an usher at my wedding 40 years ago and was straight then , but now he's my faux "date/husband" when we go out together as just good old friends several times a month to philharmonic concerts.He is as straight acting as I am as a male and as 95%of all gay men that I've known and been around in bars were we CD's have met to gather. I can rarely remember running into a flamer as they are called.
Double standard? Yes, but I did try to clarify it and should not be so judgmental about gay effeminate men, but I am.
Anyone else ever feel the same but embarrassed to admit it?
Megan

you bring up a good point. back in 1976 i met a man and we became lovers. he was very masculine, was divorced and had two children. i was not effeminate, but not very masculine. being as i lived in a part of the country where there are a lot of gay men, i can say that most gay men do not act that way. in fact there are a lot of men who are gay who do not act that stereotype and they go about their lives happy with their preference and do not feel a need to show the world who they are with their behavior .

MOST guys who say they are bi act like straight men and merely want to "fool around" with another man. they generally do not like kissing, hugging or other types of affection. some of them crossdress, but usually just wear lingerie. in general the world does not know what to do with men who say they are bi. bi men could have the best of both worlds if they could define who they are and what they want. i have been on adult dating sites and checked and responded to CL ads and know this very well. for me, if and if i am with a man, i want to be submissive, be seduced with foreplay and affection and be "topped" as they say. of all the guys i've talked to online in 6 years, there was only one who did that. and dressing up was not a part of that. i don't go on adult sites anymore, but i do check CL ads from time to time, simply because i choose not to waste my time with futile pursuits.

and what you say is true. most people discriminate against minorities, not because of who people are, but because of the way the act. i think women do not like men, who say they are bi, because they are expecting effeminate behavior. most gay guys do not like guys who say they are bi because bi men are somewhat ambiguous. they don't really understand the whole "man on man" thing.

i think in some ways this is true with women. men would find feminine women who say they are bi quite attractive. however if a woman is really "butch", not so much.

let me reiterate that i believe that in general that the reason society discriminates against minorities of all kinds is not because of who they are, but because of the behavior that these groups of people feel that they have to display to define or prove who they are.

[Phylis Nicole Schuyler]

That is what my first wife wanted. She wanted me to be a slave to not only her but another man. Later on I found out that she was screwing several people on the floor where she worked in the hospital. I am very open to the idea of couples of the same sex, even though I am bi curious at times about being with a transexual, overall M2M is not for me.