Please help me understand

[Presh GG]

[SIZE="2"][/SIZE]

Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me.

I don't understand the phrase " self loathing".
intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ?

I've met quite a few of the gals on and off this forum and to me they've got it all going on.
It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves
.
Maybe if we talk it out , those who are in turmoil will see the good in all of us.

Thank you for any insight
Presh GG

[gabimartini]

Presh,

I think it's hard to have the kind of secret that we have. There's not much we can do about it, and sharing it not always produces good results. So, I'm afraid a lot of us go into the "why me" mode. With it comes shame, guilt, doubt, rage, and a stream of negative feelings that combined produce self-loathing. After all, it is not easy being different, and having to hide it!

I believe the cure lies in understanding and accepting transgenderism for what it is. It is not a curse or a gift. It is a fact of life, one we can't change. One that poses some operational problems to explore, but also opens up possibilities. TG persons must understand that transgenderism is what we make of it, not what it makes of us.

Guess I'm not making much sense, huh? I don't even know if this is the kind of self-loathing you were referring to.

[prene]

Presh,
THanks for the coment.
I sometime fell bad since I am not in the main stream.
Sometimes I wish my thoughts and desires were different ... but they are not.

It is not easy sometimes.
I feel bad when someone else thing little of me.

But it does not " degenerate to loathing one's self "

[Kelly DeWinter]

It has a lot to do with self esteem, how you see yourself. A lot of times it comes from things others say. you move from disliking yourself to self lothing, hating yourself. Thats why a good self image is very important. It's a very common issue even outside of the Transgender community. Some profession's say its more prevalent in women then men. So since transgendered people identify as female, it's no wonder you find it prevalent on boads such as this one.

[Marleena]

Presh, I think it's great when GG's want to know about our feelings. Being an older person we were lead to believe we had a mental illness at one point in time (decades ago). We couldn't tell anybody, had to hide CDing from everybody. Times are getting better but it's still not easy being a CD'er. We are a turn off to some GG's, and still frowned upon by many people. There is a lot of stress that goes along with it. This forum helps us to realize we are okay, and normal people.

[Leanne2]

Dear Presh,
I am a M to F transgender woman. I've only known this for three years. At first, when I was three or four I thought I was a girl. Then as puberty kicked in I figured that I must be gay. But the problem with that diagnosis was that I was only attracted to girls. I developed a man's body but still felt like a woman so I decided that I was a straight cross-dresser. As the years went by that diagnosis didn't seem right either. As you can imagine this situation caused stress in our marriage so I started counseling with a gender specialist. I learned many things but one thing that surprised me was the fact that gender and sexual orientation are formed at two different times in a fetus. If I would have been attracted to men then I would have believed that I was gay or eventually transgendered and I could have transitioned when I was much younger. Or, the best scenario would have been for my parents to take steps to delay male puberty until I could decide as a young adult on GRS. But that was the 50s and 60s and no one knew about these things then. So, male puberty ruined my body. I'm stuck with this hairy body and deep voice and it makes me want to scream just thinking about that. The average person on the street would say," You're a guy; just get over it." How would you like to hear those words? I hope this helps you to understand how some of us feel. Leanne

[Jonianne]

[SIZE="2"][/SIZE]

Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me.

I don't understand the phrase " self loathing".....
It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves.....

Presh, I will never hold the fact that you are GG against you. Your input is super important and valid to me.

Depression and ultimatly "self loathing" is genderless. Think of how many people you know, both male and female, that CUT themselves, for example. It is horrendously wide spread. It probably has hit every family. Sometimes we outside of them, just dont see how things are so bad that they have to do something like that. It's the depression.

As far as being a cd'er goes, I went through so much agony with what I now understand is cognative dissosance, which means holding two opposing views at the same time. Tell me that wont drive you nuts. Essentially, it is that deep inside we think something is wrong with us that can't be fixed, so we as a person must be bad, therefore we may start to "loath ourselves".

What brought me out of it was hearing from many people, especially non-cd'ers, that I was OK just as I am and that I was still loved and accepted, no matter what cloths I liked to wear. In time when I had the ability to really let that love and acceptance sink in and settle in my own spirit, then I began to change from hating myself, to loving myself with no strings attached. Connection and communication (wrong kind of) with others caused the problem to begin with and connection and communication with safe others is therefore the solution as well. You have to be repaired where the train went off the tracks.

[Jessinthesprings]

I cannot speak for anyone but myself:

It's not a hatred of who you are rather what you are. I hate seeing the male in the mirror. I hate how my body feels wrong somehow. But that's too simplistic, and it never is. You are being torn too. There is a perception by transgendered people (and is probably true) that the outside world at best thinks of us a joke and at worst freaks who need to die. Who wants to present as one gender only to be seen as a freak in the oppisite gender; ie man in a dress. Then there is the fear of rejection of friends and family, and the pain that it will cause them.

There is a lot to hate about being transgendered, and since blame cannot be placed on any external source it falls on you...

[Presh GG]

Thank you all

I understand being depressed over loss of a job, a failed marriage ., In this ecconomy, in this world it , would be unusual Not to have times of depression.
But to Loath ones self , because , face it , we're all a little "differant" This is what I don't understand.
To you all, you are special , you are who you were ment to be. That's pretty cool

Presh

[Kathi Lake]

. . . you are who you were ment to be. That's pretty cool.

If everyone's attitudes were like yours, there would be no self-loathing!

Some of us feel as we do because we have been taught by parents, teachers, peers, and pretty much society as a whole, that we are damaged, sick, perverted, wrong, sinning, screwed up, and more. Some of us actually - for a time - believe what we have been taught. Sad, isn't it?

Kathi

[Marleena]

Thank you all

I understand being depressed over loss of a job, a failed marriage ., In this ecconomy, in this world it , would be unusual Not to have times of depression.
But to Loath ones self , because , face it , we're all a little "differant" This is what I don't understand.
To you all, you are special , you are who you were ment to be. That's pretty cool

Presh

Thanks so much Presh! Can we clone you, and replace all the haters out there?

[Alberta_Pat]

Presh, I think that the difficulties come from trying to "fit the image".

Many of the members here identify as female in a male body. This by itself will create a great deal of angst. When one adds the "inability" of society to accept this "bilateral-ism", it generates a feeling of inadequacy in the person who does not "conform".

When "non-conformity" becomes an issue, a person wants to try to adapt and conform. If the mind is not willing to do so, conflict develops. This conflict becomes all encompassing in some, and begins a downward spiral of non-acceptance of oneself. Depression can ensue, and when this happens, a person tries to "reason" their way out.

When all logical thought begins to fail, a person can internalize these thoughts, and begin to wonder what is "wrong" with them. This starts the thought process of: "If only I weren't this way, life would be better". So, now the individual is feeling that "they" are the problem, not society.

Left unchecked, this will develop into that "self loathing" to which you refer. EG: This is all my fault, and I can't change it. I wish I were different, If only I were different, etc.

[Just Elizabeth]

, I went through so much agony with what I now understand is cognative dissosance, which means holding two opposing views at the same time. Tell me that wont drive you nuts. Essentially, it is that deep inside we think something is wrong with us that can't be fixed, so we as a person must be bad, therefore we may start to "loath ourselves".

This strikes a chord with me, even though I am an SO. I find myself feeling I should be able to accept my husband's CD'ing. Hey, it's just clothes, as I've read over and over. But something inside me has major problems with this. I feel we are losing the "we" as a couple. And I feel I should be able to fix the situation.. either by fixing me inside my head, or fixing some nebulous something out there that doesn't even have a name.

And yes, it strikes me in my self worth. I should be able to fix it. Or me.

Sorry, Presh, if you just wanted the CD view. But it's here in SO's as well. At least in this one.

Just Elizabeth

[Marleena]

But something inside me has major problems with this. I feel we are losing the "we" as a couple. And I feel I should be able to fix the situation.. either by fixing me inside my head, or fixing some nebulous something out there that doesn't even have a name.

Some people may never accept it. If you have an SO that CD's you have a choice of letting him continue, and hide it from you, or there will be huge problems in the relationship. If you can't find a middle ground and counselling won't help, the relationship is doomed. Just my thought.

[Misti]

[SIZE="2"][/SIZE] Please help me understand

Ok, I'm a gg, Please don't hold that against me. I don't understand the phrase " self loathing". Intellectually, I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self? ... It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves. Maybe if we talk it out , those who are in turmoil will see the good in all of us.

Dear Presh,
Great question, Presh, and thank you so very much for your GG interest in, and visible support of, "Our Cause!" It is actually a GG (my SO) that is helping me slide smoothly through that narrow door to being what I am fast falling in love with, me being what I am now (However, I’m not completely sure what, yet, though?). I didn't know about all of this until about 18 months ago. Oh, there were other possibility(?) signs along the way, to be sure, but I chose to completely ignore them, until now.

In the past 18 months I have become the "happiest and most content person" I could ever be while finding out about this truly magnificent, utterly marvelous, incredibly mysterious, mesmerizing, addicting and fascinating "feminine side" of my personality. My marriage of 26+ years is now the “sweetest, most loving, understanding and fulfilling" of a whole lifetime of turmoil and tumult, not surprisingly, as a man with three (3) previous marriages, three (3) grown children, and a very productive, eventful and successful career in the USAF. Mind you, nothing feminine had anything to do with all of that previous utterly frustrating, sometimes fascinating, but highly successful “previous lifetime”; it was purely and simply just my being a "hard-headed" Scorpio, in the wrong timeframe, circumstances and places, most likely? We’ll never know?

I cannot speak for anyone but myself:
It's not a hatred of who you are rather what you are. I hate seeing the male in the mirror.... But that's too simplistic, and it never is. You are being torn too. There is a perception by transgendered people (and is probably true) that the outside world at best thinks of us a joke and at worst freaks who need to die. Who wants to present as one gender only to be seen as a freak in the opposite gender; i.e. [a] man in a dress. Then there is the fear of rejection of friends and family, and the pain that it will cause them.

Jess, has put a finger right on what my main problem is, so far. I never have liked that male face in the mirror; well, hardly ever, but most definitely not now. I do have a couple of male photos that I can be proud of, but then, that's about it. I seriously want to do some reconstruction to rectify that problem, but I'm afraid it is way too late in this lifetime for all that necessary beautification, sad to say.

So, to the point of your question, there are differing levels of "self loathing," Presh. Luckily mine can be lived with and covered up with good makeup, a wig and earrings. But, not everyone can achieve happiness that way, sad to say. I only sincerely hope and pray that all the others stricken with this "self loathing" affliction can overcome it, and go on to live the "Perfect Life" like they fervently long to do.

GOD BLESS AND KEEP MY SO HEALTHY, LOVING, WISE AND SUPPORTING of “something” that could just as easily and logically be equally as "Loathing" to her, as well, but viewed solely from her side of this perplexing "extreme femininity in men" daunting equation... GOD Bless you, Presh, and all of you supporting SO’s out there, as well! You are priceless to us all.

Now that I think of it, Girls, that may be a real solution to all this, you know; get a loving, supporting SO. Then, the world can go take a flying “leap” (you intuitively know what “explicative deleted” word to re-insert there, don’t you?) at a rolling donut?

Best of luck, always and sincerely,

L&R

[Frédérique]

Please help me understand Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me. I don't understand the phrase " self loathing". intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ? I've met quite a few of the gals on and off this forum and to me they've got it all going on. It hurts my head to think someone can think so little of themselves. Maybe if we talk it out , those who are in turmoil will see the good in all of us. Thank you for any insight

[SIZE="2"]This would be the perfect opportunity to correct the posted injury you once inflicted on me, but I think I will address the topic instead, since you asked for “any” insight…

Are you referring to Marleena’s thread OP, where I just came across the term “self-loathing?” What are you having trouble understanding? I think it was quite clear:[/SIZE]

I've felt the same as many of you, depressed, shamed, afraid, lonely, etc. I felt like a freak of nature and tried stopping the urges many times, but it never went away. I tried purging to cure myself of it, that didn't work either, I felt worse afterwards. It was a curse for many years but I had to keep dressing. All the years of self loathing took a toll on me emotionally.

[SIZE="2"]Perhaps from your perspective you can’t appreciate what it’s like for a male to dress in female clothing – it goes against everything you’ve been told, everything people expect from you, and everything you tell yourself you’re supposed to be. Add to this the inevitable gay connotations, questions about mental illness, the shame of having to hide what gives you pleasure, and so forth. Some of us take a long time to overcome what can be termed self-loathing, which is another way to describe this underlying feeling that what you’re doing is WRONG. It’s not wrong, but in order to come to that conclusion, an MTF crossdresser has to overcome innumerable barricades, placed between him (soon to be her) and personal happiness. Imagine being burdened with thinking that crossdressing is a curse, or that free expression is not valid in it’s own right, and you may begin to appreciate how one can loathe oneself – it’s not the fault of the individual, rather it’s the general opinion floating around out there, where ignorance rules and conformity reigns…

BTW, there’s no need to tell me you’re a GG – I can read your pseudonym…[/SIZE]

[Kaz]

Presh, you a special person indeed! When I self-'loathe'... it is because of the negative impact that my 'being' me has on others. This applies to me more than just CDing... but yeah... society is against us and this whole closeted thing gets to you sometimes, especially if you have wife, kids, that sort of thing...

My wife said to me a while back... "I didn't sign up for this"... which means that I have let her down in her expectations... not good?

[Jonianne]

......I find myself feeling I should be able to accept my husband's CD'ing. Hey, it's just clothes, .....

Elizabeth, what you are going through is exactly why my heart goes out to gg's who have to face this. First don't let anyone ever tell you that "its just cloths". The issues are far deeper and likely go all the way through to the most fundamental levels of crossdressers. This takes years and maybe a lifetime is not enough for the cd'ers, much less the ones who love them. So what you have to face is so much more and only love will see you through this. Hopefully your SO will give you as much love and understanding as he possibly can.

Second, accepting your husband's dressing is not your responsibility. You may be OK with it in time, you may never be OK with it. That is OK, either way. The real issue is finding a way to work it out so both of you can be happy. It should NEVER, NEVER be forced on you to accept it, that would not be real anyway and would only last temporally.

I don't know how you two can work it out, but just know that it is possible. It just takes a lot of love and work and even standing your ground when necessary. You must set boundries that give you a safe place, so that you can maintain a healthy sense of self and while allowing your cd'er to be himself in reasonable ways that both find, if not acceptable, but doable.

When you both feel respected then the love can grow stronger, whether or not you actually become more accepting. I hope this is an encouragement to you. Please stay on the forum and connect with all the other gg's that feel the same way and don't by any means allow false guilt to make you miserable because some of the other gg's may have a different situation. We all are different. But we love to hang in here and help each other.

[Rianna Humble]

This strikes a chord with me, even though I am an SO. I find myself feeling I should be able to accept my husband's CD'ing. Hey, it's just clothes, as I've read over and over. But something inside me has major problems with this. I feel we are losing the "we" as a couple. And I feel I should be able to fix the situation.. either by fixing me inside my head, or fixing some nebulous something out there that doesn't even have a name.

And yes, it strikes me in my self worth. I should be able to fix it. Or me.

Sorry, Presh, if you just wanted the CD view. But it's here in SO's as well. At least in this one.

Just Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth, thank you for sharing this with us but also thank you for being the sort of exceptional person who comes here to learn more when faced with a cross-dressing husband. Far from having a downer on yourself for not being able to "fix it", you should be proud of the positive way that you have sought to adapt your understanding.

If your husband's cross-dressing was "just clothes" then he would be able to take it or leave it, but I have not met many cross-dressers who are able to do that.

I hope that your husband is able to listen to your feelings as you come to terms with this new reality in your relationship, only that way will you be able to grow as a couple again. Please try to remember that your husband has spent nearly his whole life trying to figure this CD thing out, so it is not surprising if you still feel a bit disoriented by the concept.

If you are worried that you could be losing the "we" in your couple, then you need to talk this through with your husband. Don't forget he's a man and men don't feel these things as intuitively as we do

Whatever else you take from my words, please believe me that you don't need to "fix" yourself, you are already an outstanding human being. If anything needs to be fixed, it should be both of you working together to recapture the feeling of bring one as a couple - neither of you can do that on his/her own.

Ok, I'm a gg , Please don't hold that against me.

I don't understand the phrase "self loathing".
intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ?

Hi Presh, I hope you know me well enough not to expect me to hold against you the fact that you are a GG - that is not something to be ashamed of, it is part of what makes you such a wonderful person.

I can only try to answer your question with reference to my own experience in my former life.

When I first became aware that my body was not right, I didn't know how to tell my parents and I didn't want to let them down so I said nothing. Later on as puberty betrayed me even further, I began to "understand" that I was just meant to be ugly and not like the other girls. This also contributed to making my shy and not a little gauche. How could I expect people to warm to this ugly frame and confused mind?

Getting involved with a religious group who believed that anything other than cisgender heterosexual was a result of sinful choices only served to deepen my disaffection with who I was. From time to time, I would dress to experience the freedom of being me, but immediately afterwards I would hate how weak I had been in not "choosing" to be a man.

I developed a sort of coping mechanism by making myself useful, but this only really deepened my feeling that no-one could like me for myself because there was nothing likeable in who I was. I actually confided to one person who I did see as more of a friend that I believed the only reason anyone could like me was for what I could do for them not for who I was.

I don't think that I necessarily used the term self-loathing until my gender dysphoria got to the point where I planned about 6 different ways of ending my life. Suddenly at 3 o'clock one morning, I knew I could not go on living unless I could come to terms with who I am. Luckily for me, I decided that there was more future in coming to terms with myself than in ending my life; but I was sincere when I told my doctor that I would rather face a lonely life as an ugly woman than spend another day as the man I have never really been.

Since then I have discovered that I really do have some amazing friends, and I have had the privilege of making the acquaintance on-line of some extraordinary people such as the OP in this thread and Elizabeth (top name but 2 of many). I have also discovered that life can be something to be enjoyed.

[Pythos]

kk, I for a long time after 9/11 was self loathing. My life had gone from having fun with friends, flying every weekend, having good jobs....to having my life be one thing and one thing only and that was as a Road Supervisor at a paratransit company. The title meant nothing. I didn't supervise squat. Every time I tried to do something with friends my plans got ruined in some way or another by the job.

It got to the point all I wore on my time off were the lower part of the dull uniform I was to wear while on duty. EVEN WHEN HOME. It sucked.

Relationships failed, and life sucked. I hated myself, my life, and my existence. I felt I was responsible for what I had become. There were no other jobs hiring, my flying had gone comatose.

Now when it comes to CDers hating themselves, I think this is a result of CDing being aproached as if it is some sort of disease. This is something I see CDs here doing, and it irritates the bejeezes out of me, but I have refrained from my usual "THIS IS NOT A DISEASE, quite treating it as such" line, cause it just seems to fall on deaf ears.

Not sure if that helped answer your queery, but that is the best I can muster.

[Presh GG]

Since someone asked , no I was not aware of Marleena's post/ thread about self loathing. This is from a phone conversation I had with a friend.

Thank you all, It was the first time I had really felt her pain ..and it hurt me to think where it was comeing from., so much so I needed to ask your guidance.

Elizabeth,Any and all of my threads are open to everyone.
I'm so sorry you are hurting . It does take a leap of faith to know your husband still loves you as before you knew.
Please, know that things will get better , they always do. We're here to help in any way you need.

Presh

[KellyJameson]

Hi Presh I hope a GG is never mistreated here due to her gender that would be disgraceful. There is the occasional scuffle but in general every post I have read has been very open, non-judgemental and at times loving.

Self loathing, self hate, ect..(there are other expressions) usually builds up over a lifetime of abuse, rejection, humiliation, exclusion, cruely, criticism, ect... but regardless of the words used it is an attack on a persons very right to exist so they are left feeling that they do not have the right to breath the very air others breath. This is done in a million little ways or sometimes in a instant such as rape where the victim blames themselves but the important word is " attack" against your very value as a human being. It is always relational so it is a form of measurement, of comparison with the end result of feeling less than others, inadequate, insignificant, ect... always inferior to others in some important way.

We take all those attacks by others and make them are own by running the words inside our heads in the form of beliefs sitting in judgement of ourselves. It is a type of brainwashing that is always done by those who have authority over us. Parents,Teachers, Religion, Someone with larger body strength, ect.. always by those who have an unfair advantage and abuse it due to a combination of ignorance, fear and or hate.

Historically men and women have been controlled in different ways. In the past women who enjoyed sex were labelled *****s so they than were at risk for experiencing guilt and sometimes self loathing if they had sexual desires.

Masturbation was another act that both sexes were made to feel guilt and sometimes self loathing over.

Men who showed fear of injury or of death in battle were labelled cowards so feeling the very natural reaction of fear and the desire to survive created self loathing by labelling oneself as a coward in the privacy of ones own mind. This is why many men are violent, to prove to themselves they are not cowards so they can escape the self loathing but they walk into a trap now always needing to prove they are not cowards thru violence. It is hating something fundamental to who you are, a part of you that cannot be cut out.

It is a paradox that the truly evil always blame others for their behavior and the good always seem to blame themselves but the truth always lies somewhere in between.

[Badtranny]

Self loathing? I didn't hate my body. I didn't hate my life. I hated looking at myself every morning, and knowing that I was a coward.

[docrobbysherry]

For many of us closet dressers, anyway! What's makes it even WORSE for me is; I enjoy it so much and it turns me on! And, I can't tell ANYONE!

Add to that the fact that I spend a lot of time and energy on it. Time that mite be better spent maintaining my business and other material possessions? Or, socializing with my friends and family?

If our continuing deception, guilt for various reasons, and "perverted" sex aren't enuff to create some degree of self loathing, I just don't know what will!?

If everyone's attitudes were like yours, there would be no self-loathing!

Some of us feel as we do because we have been taught by parents, teachers, peers, and pretty much society as a whole, that we are damaged, sick, perverted, wrong, sinning, screwed up, and more. Some of us actually - for a time - believe what we have been taught. Sad, isn't it?
Kathi

That's so well stated, Kathi!

[Aprilrain]

[SIZE="2"][/SIZE]
I don't understand the phrase " self loathing".
intellectually , I understand the concept of depression , but how does it degenerate to loathing one's self ?

I hope you never have to find out, trust me it sucks!