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Thread: Do clothes imprison the girl?

  1. #26
    Cat's Eye Siren ArleneRaquel's Avatar
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    Yes corsets, bras and other female undergarments can imprison the the body, but if that's prison sentence me to a life term. Tonya is right it's the mind that imprisons.
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  2. #27
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    Imprisonment - or freedom to choose?

    What a fascinating topic, Frédérique. It raises so many issues and questions. Having grown up in the 1950s and 60s, I have witnessed the change from a female dress code that, as some contributors have pointed out, could be quite physically imprisoning to today's casual and made-for-comfort styles. I enjoy sampling all the periods and styles from that span of time and enjoy both the restriction of some forms of dress and the freedom and ease of others. I have no difficulty in understanding the relief women felt when stockings, suspenders and girdles were replaced by tights and tee shirts yet I also enjoy experiencing something of what women have experienced in all those different forms of dress.

    Imprisonment is, perhaps, too strong a term. Nevertheless, it implies loss of freedom or liberty and that was certainly a factor of the typical woman's dress when I began taking an interest in it in the 1950s. I didn't have any sisters but I had female cousins and neighbours and was intrigued by the small but significant loss of freedom they experienced and accepted as the norm of the day when they began to grow up and started dressing as young adults. Wearing stockings was an important milestone for young teen girls and I remember several instances of such girls learning that they now had to be careful how they sat and moved because they must avoid showing stocking tops. One girl was told she could not play with me and another friend in our garden because she might ladder her nylons - nylons she only wore as Sunday best and of which she was very proud....but they restricted her freedom to run around and enjoy herself.

    A little later I had a girlfriend whose younger sister had just started wearing stockings and when she came home into my girlfriend's house the first thing she did was to go upstairs and take off her nylons so that she could relax in the garden in the sun without having to worry about laddering her stockings and could lift the hem of her dress just a few inches above her knees to let the sun get to her legs. I asked my girlfriend why she didn't do likewise and the reason she gave was that we would be going out again after lunch and if she took her stockings off she would have to get out of her girdle as well and it wasn't worth bothering to do all that only to have to put it all on again afterwards. Going bare-legged was not, for that 17-year-old girl, an option on a Sunday afternoon! She wasn't imprisoned, but there was some restriction imposed by her everyday clothes.

    Now consider the young woman who likes to show off a good figure by wearing a tight skirt. She'll also put on some heels. That combination - freely chosen - will slow down her walking, prevent her from running, make climbing stairs more difficult and require extra care when sitting. Back in the 1960s and still today, women do exactly that. If they needed help with their figure, back then it was a firm girdle and a good, possibly long-line bra and today it's an underwired push-up bra and a tight Spanx-type shaper. None of those clothes promote freedom.

    On the other hand, modern women enjoy the option of minimal clothing - in warm weather just a bra (optional), dress or skirt and top or jeans or shorts, panties and flat, comfortable shoes - no hosiery. Pretty well total freedom.

    Those of us who are not women but enjoy the sensations of wearing feminine clothing have the luxury of choosing freedom or restriction, just as real women do. The world of petticoat punishment and forced feminisation is a world away from that but it represents another, perhaps more extreme, facet of the crossdressing genre. I dooon't indulge or have any experience of it but I will confess to sometimes enjoying making myself wear the more restrictive items (firm girdle, long bra, stockings and suspenders, tight knee-length skirt and heels and then try to go about my day's business around the house (not, sadly, furher afield) just to sense what many women would once have felt as they tried to manage despite the limitations imposed by their clothes. Every move and action then needs more consideration and I find myself thinking how much easier it would be to bend down without the tight girdle, to sit comfortably on the sofa without suspenders digging into my legs or to climb on to a chair to reach a high shelf without the skirt trying to stop me..... Then, another day, in a light bra, sheer tights, comfortable shoes and a loose dress I can do the same things so comfortably and easily....and still enjoy every moment.

    Its the freedom to choose that is so compelling - and that includes the freedom to choose restriction.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    [SIZE="2"]It seems so, but I’m referring more to psychological confinement, and how female clothing reinforces that state. I KNOW that wearing women’s clothing is liberating and NOT confining in a literal sense, but in the OP I am addressing the “apartness” that female clothing creates. Just like boys are not expected to wear pretty things (especially at this point in time), some girls balk at the notion of having to “be feminine” and dress according to predetermined expectations. From a CD standpoint, it opens the door for us to experiment, change humiliation into exhilaration, and re-dress the balance (pun intended)…
    [/SIZE]
    I think we are saying something very similar, but are simply approaching it metaphorically from two different directions. I was discussing the psychological impact of being confined by our compulsion and or need to crossdress, and the resulting association of that confinement to feelings of exhileration. I used the comparison to bondage as the actual physical confinement of bondage is more apparent, but the psychological impact and result are the same. Rather than discussing the physical confinement of the clothing of CDing, or the ropes of bondage, I was looking more at the risks involved, the need for secrecy, the reaching for higher plateaus etc. of each activity as being sources of confinement, leading to the resulting psychological impact of exhileration. From your initial post, I gathered that you were thinking more in terms of the dissociative nature of wearing the "wrong" clothing, and the psychological impact of placing the same restrictiveness upon ourselves that society imposes upon women. Many of the other replies, tended to look more at the nature of female clothing, and dealt with restriction in a pure physical sense. This aspect is of course, true, and leads to a lot of the confusion by others, especially spouses, as to why we would subject ourselves to such discomfort unnecessarily. You have to go beyond the physical limitations in order to gain any understanding of this.

    Veronica

  4. #29
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    You bring your own associations to objects. Having worked with teenagers I know that they think wearing Ray Barnes glasses makes you a hipster, I imagine the same applied to petticoat punishment. Because the mother said "This is your punishment..." then the boy would think so and associate it with weakness but this also ties in with the heavily gendered playground culture. If the boy admired women and was told "this is your reward for doing well" then the boy would have a positive association with the clothing.

    I think any item of clothing can be seen as restrictive really, I don't like wearing comfortable trousers sometimes because I associate them with work. The clothing back then was restrictive for any gender, the collars on men shirts could kill them not to mention the tight fitting clothing men used to wear back then too.

  5. #30
    Tempus Fugit PetiteTonya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momarie View Post
    Perhaps your porn petticoat discipline websites would appreciate your long winded, fluffy forced feminine fantasies.

    ...Not the least bit helpful. Rather mean spirited in fact I think.

  6. #31
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    I guess there are some pretty cruel people out there. Deliberately demeaning a child by any means is just evil. I can't imagine my parents ever attempting to punish me in such a fashion, thank goodness.

    But to answer the question from my perspective, men's clothing, perhaps, does indeed feel a bit confining.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momarie View Post
    Perhaps your porn petticoat discipline websites would appreciate your long winded, fluffy forced feminine fantasies.
    I'd initially ignored this post, but since Tonya picked up on it, I thought I would, too. From what I've seen of petticoat discipline, it seems to me it's as much a woman's fantasy as a guy's. It appears there are certain girls and guys who groove on this sort of thing--the dom/sub culture.

    What I get from it is that there are women who enjoy demeaning a guy in this way, just as there are guys who enjoy being demeaned in this way. But why is it demeaning to a guy to be dressed as a woman unless we regard women as inferior? And why would a woman want to convey the message that she's demeaning you by making you like her?

    I used to do some work around a primary school, and one day I overheard three girls taunting a boy, saying, "So-and-so sulks like a girl! So-and-so sulks like a girl!" I thought that was odd. The girls were insulting him by comparing him to themselves. What really did they think about themselves?

    If we're talking about petticoat discipline, it raises as many questions in my mind about the female mentality as the male mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blodwen View Post
    I think any item of clothing can be seen as restrictive really, I don't like wearing comfortable trousers sometimes because I associate them with work. The clothing back then was restrictive for any gender, the collars on men shirts could kill them not to mention the tight fitting clothing men used to wear back then too.
    What were those things called that well-to-do men used to wear? Dickeys? Those fake, plastic shirt fronts that fastened in the back with straps. Must have been bloody uncomfortable. Why didn't they just wear shirts? An insane item to wear.

  8. #33
    Silver Member LilSissyStevie's Avatar
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    Petticoat Punishment stories have always been my favorite kind of TG fiction. My favorite books are the series Miss High Heels, Miss Buckles, Miss Sissy. There's less sex, BTW, in all these books put together than in one chapter of a typical romance novel. It's obvious that most of the critics in this thread are unfamiliar with the genre. Of course, ignorance never stopped anyone from having strong opinions about something. First, petticoat punishment stories are not about women. They are about effeminate young men that are trying to assert their male privilege and masculinity but get put in their place instead. It is true that women are stereotyped in PP fiction. They are stereotypically powerful, independent, disciplined, smart, cunning, dominant, stern and a bit cruel. These women, rather than submit to the brat, gain control and progressively feminize him, against his furious resistance, until he realizes, accepts and submits to his true feminine nature. Then everyone lives happily ever after. These stories are not about forcing a masculine male to be feminine, they are about forcing away the masculine facade to reveal the feminine core. The ultra feminine clothing serve as powerful symbols (fetishes, if you will) that do not confine the 'girl' but envelope and release her.

    Whenever I see people try to explain Forced Feminization stories as some kind of mental trick to assuage guilt or shame, I think of all the times I use to fantasize about tossing my first wife into a wood chipper. I knew it was wrong to think about doing that to the mother of my children and I felt guilt and shame about it, too. But I never fantasized that someone was forcing me to throw her in so I wouldn't have to feel bad about it. I'm probably just not clever enough to trick myself into believing that, by fantasizing that someone is forcing me to crossdress, I'm not really fantasizing about crossdressing or that it somehow preserves my masculine dignity if I fantasize about a woman forcing me to wear a petticoat but not if I just put the petticoat on of my own volition. The guilt theory is absurd. My own speculation about FF fantasies is that they are about the need to be desired as feminine beings. We want our partner to desire our femininity enough to force (help) us throw off the masculine veneer so we can surrender to the inner feminine essence. Sure, in most cases it ain't never gonna happen but, hey, that's why it's called fantasy!
    Last edited by LilSissyStevie; 12-23-2011 at 12:59 AM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilSissyStevie View Post
    Whenever I see people try to explain Forced Feminization stories as some kind of mental trick to assuage guilt or shame, I think of all the times I use to fantasize about tossing my first wife into a wood chipper. I knew it was wrong to think about doing that to the mother of my children and I felt guilt and shame about it, too. But I never fantasized that someone was forcing me to throw her in so I wouldn't have to feel bad about it. I'm probably just not clever enough to trick myself into believing that, by fantasizing that someone is forcing me to crossdress, I'm not really fantasizing about crossdressing or that it somehow preserves my masculine dignity if I fantasize about a woman forcing me to wear a petticoat but not if I just put the petticoat on of my own volition. The guilt theory is absurd. My own speculation about FF fantasies is that they are about the need to be desired as feminine beings. We want our partner to desire our femininity enough to force (help) us throw off the masculine veneer so we can surrender to the inner feminine essence. Sure, in most cases it ain't never gonna happen but, hey, that's why it's called fantasy!
    I disagree with your conclusion that the guilt theory is absurd. A fantasy about forced crossdressing is still a fantasy about crossdressing. Many men have difficulty overcoming the feelings of shame and guilt associated with what many in society regard as a taboo activity. Fantasizing that it is out of your control for whatever reason, enables the mind to get beyond the shame in its fantasies so that it can concentrate on the crossdressing itself.

    I agree with your excellent first paragraph about the nature of the petticoat punishment literature, and while your theory about the need to be desired as a feminine being is no doubt true in a great many cases, I still believe that there is an element of guilt assuaging in the minds of many. I think it is likely a larger part of personal fantasizing than it is of fiction, however. I know of no studies about this, but find no basis for the outright dismissal of the guilt theory.

    Veronica

  10. #35
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    Even if the guilt theory is valid (and I don't know that I'm qualified to judge on that), I think it's understandable. CDers carry a lot of guilt for something that ultimately isn't their fault, and so it's easy to understand that they might look for ways to get rid of it.

  11. #36
    I accept myself as is Gillian Gigs's Avatar
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    Whether you call it forced feminization, forced crossdressing, or petticoating, it all has its roots in the same place. Anything that is found on the fringe of a culture, or society will always be looked at through colored glasses. I can not count the number of times that someone has protested too much about something and then months later they came out of the closet about it, so to speak. Fantasy will always be a part of our psyche and some will try and say that one fantasy is ok and another is not. I will restate what I said before, if you have willing individuals then it is your own business, with someone who is unwilling is a totally different story. If you want lingerie, whips and ropes, with mirrors, I don't care, just don't tell me about it unless I ask! There are enough other sites to titilate anyone to whatever bent that they might have, and I am not about to say what they can or can not do, I am not anyones judge.
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  12. #37
    Silver Member LilSissyStevie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veronica27 View Post
    I disagree with your conclusion that the guilt theory is absurd. A fantasy about forced crossdressing is still a fantasy about crossdressing. Many men have difficulty overcoming the feelings of shame and guilt associated with what many in society regard as a taboo activity. Fantasizing that it is out of your control for whatever reason, enables the mind to get beyond the shame in its fantasies so that it can concentrate on the crossdressing itself.
    I'm not saying that CDs don't feel shame about CDing, I'm questioning the idea that FF fantasies have anything to do with it. Think of it like this: if someone feels shame about CDing, wouldn't they feel as much or even more shame about being a pathetic weakling bossed around by a female? I mean, imagine telling someone, "I fantasize about crossdressing, but it's OK because some chick is making me do it and I'm powerless to resist because she might punish me." I just don't think that anyone can delude themselves into thinking this makes crossdressing socially acceptable. But, then again, I sometimes forget where I am.

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