A different perspective on female stereotyping

[Noortje]

There has recently (and, let's face it, perpetually) been some discussion on whether crossdressers oversimplify women. Another issue that keeps coming up is that we may assign women characteristics that we then emulate, even though the characteristics are not really feminine. I am talking of course about the "housekeeping when dressed" issue.

Example threads:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ng-a-role-play
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...usehold-chores

This problem comes up in other communities as well. I am a gaming enthousiast and amateur game designer. There is a video series I watch called "extra credits" that discusses issues in videogame design. They have a video that I think deals with the same core problem that we are dealing with here: LINK.

They are looking at something very familiar (creating a meaningful and realistic female character) from a very different perspective. It seems that crossdressers are not the only people who have problems in this area!

[Kathi Lake]

Agreed. Many of us do tend to stereotype, generalize, and oversimplify women. Some say that it is all for "fantasy" but if your fantasy is to act in a manner that demeans women, that is so sad. Do you not have any strong female role models? Are women just baby-making, housecleaning, sexualized things? Is that role what you would hope your daughter would aspire to?

We say that we adore and idolize women here, and strive to emulate them, and then I see things like the threads you mentioned. Again, I think it's kinda sad.

Just my $0.02, of course. Take it for what it's worth.

Kathi

[Marleena]

I think the majority of us totally respect the GG's. We have to keep in mind we are GM's, and it up comes down to the Venus and Mars thing. We can't truly know what it takes to be a woman, but only observe since we are being raised as GM's instead.

Also remember CDing usually starts in childhood where fantasies can and do start, again they can start from observing. They can, and do get carried over to adulthood. I think the posts are totally harmless but can be confusing to GG's for sure.

Nobody taught us how to be a GG or how to interact, it is a complete new learning curve for GM's that are CDing.

Again just my opinion.

[ArleneRaquel]

I believe that most CD's admire women, I know that I do. Thats the primary, but by no way sole reason, that I dress enfemme.well over 95% of the time.

[docrobbysherry]

I think the majority of us totally respect the GG's. We have to keep in mind we are GM's, and it up comes down to the Venus and Mars thing. We can't truly know what it takes to be a woman, but only observe since we are being raised as GM's instead.

Also remember CDing usually starts in childhood where fantasies can and do start, again they can start from observing. They can, and do get carried over to adulthood. I think the posts are totally harmless but can be confusing to GG's for sure.

Nobody taught us how to be a GG or how to interact, it is a complete new learning curve for GM's that are CDing.

Again just my opinion.

Sounds rite to me, Marleena. It took me 50 years to learn how to be just a so so male. Why would it take me any less than 20 or 30 to learn how to become a QUALITY FEMALE?
Sherry's about 13 now. It's no wonder she acts immature!

[Marleena]

Sounds rite to me, Marleena. It took me 50 years to learn how to be just a so so male. Why would it take me any less than 20 or 30 to learn how to become a QUALITY FEMALE?
Sherry's about 13 now. It's no wonder she acts immature!

Lol..I totally get it Sherry! I'm learning to be Marleena which is a struggle at times. I know she's female but I need a manual to go with her.

[ArleneRaquel]

It is a struggle, but a wonderful struggle it is!

[Foxglove]

I think the majority of us totally respect the GG's. We have to keep in mind we are GM's, and it up comes down to the Venus and Mars thing. We can't truly know what it takes to be a woman, but only observe since we are being raised as GM's instead.

Also remember CDing usually starts in childhood where fantasies can and do start, again they can start from observing. They can, and do get carried over to adulthood. I think the posts are totally harmless but can be confusing to GG's for sure.

Nobody taught us how to be a GG or how to interact, it is a complete new learning curve for GM's that are CDing.

Again just my opinion.

I would totally agree with this and said something similar in a recent post. If we have a "feminine side", we never get the chance to let that side of us grow and develop. On the contrary, we're made to feel that that side of us is shameful and dirty and to be kept well hidden. So how can anyone expect that side of us to be mature or realistic?

If we act "feminine", it's often stereotypical, fantaisical, ludicrous, because our image of femininity comes from our childhoods when we didn't know anything about women or anything else. We may express our "femininity" in a ridiculous way because that's the only way we know to express it.

I can well understand GG's exasperation with us. On one of the two threads mentioned above, however, a lot of the posts were joking, and the jokes were aimed at ourselves. But perhaps some of this exasperation will be mitigated when it's realized where this behavior springs from. If our behavior is distorted, it's because our personalities have been distorted from an early age.

[AllieSF]

I do not have a problem with us CD's over simplifying the overly complicated woman mystique. We are crossdressers and what each of us chooses to emulate, copy or over emphasize is totally up to us. I would guess, fairly accurately I also think, that none of this emulation is meant to consciously degrade what and who women really are. Remember, that it is our world, fantasy or otherwise, and we do this for fun, games, and whatever. So, I am definitely not apologetic as to how I present myself and will not look down on nor denigrate how someone else portrays themselves. I may not like how they do that, but that is their choice. To say that we make women look bad, or put them back into those unwanted but many times true stereotypes that they struggled to get out of is not true and sometimes feels like to me that it is another form of censorship from the community. I.e. you shouldn't do that or say that because it makes us look bad and it doesn't sound nice when a GG reads it.

When we post here, I think that most MtF's post for their fellow CD's, not SO's and others outside of our niche in the broader LGBT spectrum. They post to share how they feel at some particular moment when they dress or do something that they may consider feminine. I have no problem when someone clarifies that a specific point of view is not really how GG's think or act. However, my hot button is pushed when someone says what they/we are doing is not good and we should not do that. Anyway, that is my two cents worth.

[Foxglove]

When we post here, I think that most MtF's post for their fellow CD's, not SO's and others outside of our niche in the broader LGBT spectrum. They post to share how they feel at some particular moment when they dress or do something that they may consider feminine. I have no problem when someone clarifies that a specific point of view is not really how GG's think or act. However, my hot button is pushed when someone says what they/we are doing is not good and we should not do that. Anyway, that is my two cents worth.

Allie, I'd sympathize in general with your post, and I'd largely agree with this last paragraph in particular. I myself am trying at this point of my life to decide how I want to express myself--something that I've denied myself for most of my life. It may be that GG's would take exception to many things that I do or feel. But I'm trying to explore myself now--again something that I've never done before. So if my initial attempts are clumsy, what really would anyone expect? And yes, I'm not happy with the idea that someone should attempt to judge me or my behavior at this point. I've had too much judgement. Right now, I'd like the freedom--freedom that I've never felt before--to try and figure out who exactly I am and where I want to go.

[AllieSF]

Annabelle, my post is really for girls/people like you who want to express themselves however they want to, be it mainstream, fantasy land, or that sexy girl in television ads. If you feel good, that is what is important, not how someone else feels. It only matters what others think when you leave the confines of your private world to enter into the real world. Then your only limitation will be how thick your skin is, how brave you are and how much confidence you have. If you dress like a hooker, like it and can deal with looks and maybe comments, then go for it. Now I may not want to be around you when you are dressed like that unless maybe we are going to a place where that is the norm like a club, but that should not limit you to what you want to do. In other words, you should only be limiting yourself unless what you are doing is illegal, or that you decide to do that yourself. So, enjoy life, experiment, find yourself and your style or styles and have a lot of fun doing it. I do.

[Badtranny]

Allie, you should post more about stuff like this. You're a fantastic advocate for CDrs. Too many of the voices are not putting you ladies in the best light.

[Foxglove]

Annabelle, my post is really for girls/people like you who want to express themselves however they want to, be it mainstream, fantasy land, or that sexy girl in television ads. If you feel good, that is what is important, not how someone else feels. It only matters what others think when you leave the confines of your private world to enter into the real world. Then your only limitation will be how thick your skin is, how brave you are and how much confidence you have. If you dress like a hooker, like it and can deal with looks and maybe comments, then go for it. Now I may not want to be around you when you are dressed like that unless maybe we are going to a place where that is the norm like a club, but that should not limit you to what you want to do. In other words, you should only be limiting yourself unless what you are doing is illegal, or that you decide to do that yourself. So, enjoy life, experiment, find yourself and your style or styles and have a lot of fun doing it. I do.

Yeah, Allie, I'd definitely go along with this, too. It's basically up to each girl to find herself. Some of the girls on this forum might be going in a direction I wouldn't go myself, but I have no problem with that because, as I say, you have to find yourself. I'll confess that I myself like pretty, frilly stuff--stuff that most GG's wouldn't be caught dead in. But I don't apologize for that. My initial expression of this long repressed side of myself may be exaggerated, but that's just an effect of repression. If I get the time and freedom to explore, no doubt my self-expression will evolve and mature. But most people don't live what we've lived through--this concerted, desperate attempt to close off and deny a part of yourself. They shouldn't judge us too harshly because they have no way of understanding what we've been through.

[suchacutie]

I remember the very first time that my wife started to explain makeup to me, she explained that young girls have more than a dozen years to experiment with makeup as they grow to adults. That start a long series of discussions about what else is different about growing up between the genders and I'm not sure that discussion will ever stop! There is just so much that is different, and that dozen or so years to practice the "art" of your gender really does separate us in how we act and what we expect day to day.

Ok, so here we are, socialized in one gender and suddenly we want to run through the process in the other gender. It's not going to happen overnight. More to the point, many of the very juvenile testing of all things feminine that happen to young girls will likely be a process we have to go through as well! It looks silly for grown GMs to be making the same silly kinds of decisions as girls make at a very young age, but in many ways we just have to go through the process. My wife now thinks that Tina is in late adolescence (better than the toddler she thought Tina was at the start, although said with a smile and a chuckle), but that leaves a long way yet to go! Thought about in this way, the "panty" thread seems a bit more (just a bit more) understandable.

Said bluntly, we may be grown up as GMs, but until we've walked a long way in our heels we have so much to learn about being feminine. Let's just hope we can all do this without embarassing ourselves too badly

tina

[gabimartini]

Noortje, very interesting post.

I believe the reason many CDers behave this way is because CDing is more of a fetish to them. Playing the girl turns these people on, so emulated behaviors based on stereotypes (manerisms, costumes, etc) act as triggers that provoke sexual arousal and lead to the pursuit of gratification. So, it's not really about being realistically female, but rather, pursuing an idealized female image that ultimately helps build and release that sexual tension.

Notice how, in general, people who are closer to the TS end of the spectrum hardly ever behave in such ways or say they feel more feminine because they are doing chores around the house in their French maid costumes. Simply put, there's no need to really emulate anything, because it's all already there. It's just a matter of being allowed to be yourself and express your feelings, and it all comes together in a naturally femme kind of way.

Anyway, those are my two cents. It's late and I don't know that I'm making much sense.

[EmilySeattle]

As a fellow gamer, your mention of the issue coming up in the gaming world reminded me of an article I saw on Kotaku the other day. It's discussing the same thing as the video; basically that there are few if any female characters in video games that are not over-sexualized, especially as the lead character. Just look at one of the original female video game leads, Tomb Raider. The one from Half-Life 2 (Alyx I think, but it's been a while) is the only one that comes mind that isn't.

[Noortje]

Hi Emily,

Thanks for the link to the article. I like how it views the entire issue through the lens of "male privilege". This is a close analog to the discussion going on here. Subconsciously, we feel that we own the world and everything in it, and that this gives us the right to treat women with as much dignity as we want. We feel we have the right to represent them in a way of our choosing. But we don't.

[Noortje]

I would guess, fairly accurately I also think, that none of this emulation is meant to consciously degrade what and who women really are.

I agree with that. I think there are very few people here who would degrade women on purpose. What I am trying to call attention to is the subconscious, ingrained idea that housekeeping is a feminine task. I don't think that crossdressers who like to clean when dressed start their day by saying: "Today is a good day I think for reinforcing antiquated gender stereotypes!" I do not wish to accuse them of bad intentions.

I just think it would be nice to live in a world where it is not assumed that the woman will clean and cook. The key word there is "assumed". It is not the action of dressing up and cleaning that I find hard to digest. It is the fact that for so many people, it makes perfect sense to express their femininity by cleaning.

Not by fixing the car, or playing some Skyrim, or getting a degree, or performing brain surgery, or interpreting the philosphical implications of wave-particle duality, or writing an opinion piece for the paper, or running for office, or painting, starting a business, tending to the garden, competing in the triathlon, or even baking a cake.

Cleaning.

[lady di]

i will never know all the GG ways but do know how a sissy boy girl feels . which is all i need.............................................. ..........di

[noeleena]

Hi,

Not being a dresser i never had to try & emulte being a woman & to even act out being a woman would be very hard to do for myself because when its part of who you are then you dont have to think about that or try to be like a woman. being one is far different .

Mind you i do have to say the many pics i see & how some dressers are dressed , i would not even try to even concider my self in thier leage in how lovely they or you are dressed. .

What i did do was show my women friends from our Edwardian group yes we dress in 1900 to 1910 period & they said how lovely they looked these women that i took photoes of were in fact all men from a ball i was at in Austraila 3 year ago 160 of us men , women & others helping & my friends looked at me & said no way . I said well yes they are men because i meet them & know quite a few .

Now my friends do know how to dress , as for my self i tag along do the pics & yes im dressed as a normal woman yet i know i dont compare in any way with them. even tho im a woman i know my limits hence my camara & me are good friends you know what i mean ill do the pics & stay behind the camara i do get the odd one now & again. just to say i was there,

Being a woman is very different from being percived in a way that many men wish to see, or dress as. or even act as,

...noeleena...

[girlygirly]

Do you not have any strong female role models? Are women just baby-making, housecleaning, sexualized things? Is that role what you would hope your daughter would aspire to?

I'm a girly girl at heart, that's the strong female role I would want for myself. I have a lot of respect for ladies who can make babies, manage a household, yet still keep themselves looking sexy.

[Foxglove]

Hi Emily,

Thanks for the link to the article. I like how it views the entire issue through the lens of "male privilege". This is a close analog to the discussion going on here. Subconsciously, we feel that we own the world and everything in it, and that this gives us the right to treat women with as much dignity as we want. We feel we have the right to represent them in a way of our choosing. But we don't.

Hello, Noortje! Excuse me, but perhaps you're speaking for yourself here. You're certainly not speaking for me. I've never felt that I owned the world or that I had the right to represent anyone in the way of my choosing. If you're talking about MtF crossdressers, then perhaps you should say "some of us", or perhaps "a few of us", or "I and perhaps some others". In this post and your next one, you're preaching a bit, telling us what we supposedly think about women. Before you include me or anyone else in your assumptions, you might get to know us and what's going on in our minds a bit better.

On this thread that you started, people are proposing explanations of the behavior you were questioning. But I'm wondering if you're reading the answers you're being given, because in these two posts you're simply repeating what I've been hearing all my life--the clichés about how men view women, views which in our part of the world at least are just that: clichés, with little truth in them.

Best wishes, Annabelle.

[Melody1985]

There are various reasons why people do anything in life. With those reasons, there are various outlooks as well. As far as CDers and why people choose to do it or what they are trying to portray is entirely up to that individual.

But as is the case in most things that you can only do part time (most CDers), it's easy to either oversimplify or simply try to live out the fantasy part of what you are involved with. So whatever is important to that individual CDer during that time when she can dress, rest assured that she will do and act as she pleases. just like if your house catches fire, the first thing most people go for are the photos.. There are many parts that make up a race, a religion, an artist, and yes a woman, just like there are many parts that make up a man, but in the end, unless you are full time, I don't think it's possible to fully understand and dive into what it means to be that.

Thus, the birth of stereotyping. If you don't understand something, you are going to get it wrong most likely. But it's not just about being perfect (which no one is) but the journey to be the best you can be at whatever that is. And finally, if someone can't accept that you're on your own individual journey to achieve whatever it is you wish to achieve, then tell them where they can stick it!!

With that said, good post! (I may have went off on a tangent there) Lol

[Marleena]

Hello, Noortje! Excuse me, but perhaps you're speaking for yourself here. You're certainly not speaking for me. I've never felt that I owned the world or that I had the right to represent anyone in the way of my choosing. If you're talking about MtF crossdressers, then perhaps you should say "some of us", or perhaps "a few of us", or "I and perhaps some others". In this post and your next one, you're preaching a bit, telling us what we supposedly think about women. Before you include me or anyone else in your assumptions, you might get to know us and what's going on in our minds a bit better.

On this thread that you started, people are proposing explanations of the behavior you were questioning. But I'm wondering if you're reading the answers you're being given, because in these two posts you're simply repeating what I've been hearing all my life--the clichés about how men view women, views which in our part of the world at least are just that: clichés, with little truth in them.

Best wishes, Annabelle.

Well stated Annabelle I agree. I have never knowingly disrespected GG's, or considered GM's as superiors. I consider them equals in society.

What is the real purpose of this thread?

[NicoleScott]

I agree with Gabriella (post #15). For the pleasure dressers (as opposed to the identity dressers), it is about the clothes, and it's all a fantasy. So if someone wants to wear a maid's outfit while cleaning the toilet, they should, and it harms no one. For me, I clean toilets in guy mode. I like clean toilets. I also have and wear a maid's outfit, but I don't clean the toilet in it. It just doesn't enhance the fantasy (quite the contrary). When I assembled my maid's outfit, I even got a feather duster to use while posing for pics. But I don't use it for real dusting. I guess many of us have fantasies, with both great and subtle differences. Whatever does it for me might not do it for someone else, and vice versa. But I fail to see anything that offends women in all this.