Fortunately a cloning machine is not on the horizon, so we are still all individuals with our own views.
Whilst I do have strong views on some aspects of our lives, telling people that they should conform to some standard of acceptability is so wrong. If you are comfortable going out dressed as a school girl with hair on the chest and chin, with none on the top of the head, go for it.
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
I would end up laughing at a guy walking towards me in a dress and heels with a full beard and mustache. It would remind me of the old side shows at a carnival. I think some people do it just for the shock affect and it reenforces the stereotypical mind set of a cross dresser. If someone tries to look presentable, regardless how successful, I am can be supportive.
First of all, I am a crossdresser! And I am obviously a member of this forum. I do not remember reading the rules mentioned in the OP of this thread. In fact, I am sure they were not there!!
That said, when my wife was alive I went out as Stephanie looking like a Stephanie! No beard or any facial hair! Because my dear late wife always did my makeup and fixed my wig. Now she is gone, but I still go out as Stephanie. I am fully dressed enfemme when I go out, but wearing no makeup and no wig. So yes I am a man in female clothes! As long as I act like the man that I am, I am not breaking any laws! And I do not believe that I am hurting the rights of other crossdressers! How I dress is MY right, not that of anyone else. With the possible exception of my own children, and they don't care! I have gone out with a beard, and nobody even paid any attention to me. Most of the time I am clean shaven!
Stephanie
Lady on the outside, but man underneath!
I am in freedom of speech, expression and beliefs camp. The other recent thread that got closed and this one are really only dealing with a very, very small minority of the larger group, community, whether we consider ourselves part of it or not. I dress to blend, but respect and will never believe that we should through peer pressure or otherwise force/coerce someone to act the way that we think they should act. We don't like how someone dresses and think that they look like a fool. So what? I don't have to associate with them and neither do you. If you think that they give us a bad name, which they might do to a very small minority of the general public, so what? In every phase and situation of our lives as human beings, wherever we live, someone is doing something that we or others don't like. So, should we set up rules to control the extremists? No, not at all. We have free speech and that is clearly defined, even to our sometimes disagreement, through written laws and court cases. I don't like it that people can burn our flag, but it is their right to do that. If we start limiting what can or cannot be said, we then start to reduce that freedom.
I am an adult and I have put up with a lot of things that I do not like. We all do. A very few MtF TG's who wear a dress and no wig or have a beard are not going to have a material effect on the overall progress of "the cause" just because there are so few of them out there. As was said quite well in the closed thread, it is many times the extremists, the ones at either end of the pendulum or spectrum, that actually get things moving toward significant positive changes from the status quo. So, I have no problem at all that Joe dressed a Joanna goes out in a dress with a beard, or Al dressed as Allie goes out in a bikini to Starbuck's for the morning coffee. Joanna and Allie will have to deal individually with the consequences of their actions. I do not see the sky falling ("The Cause" failing) because of that. Their actions can actually have positive results when there is more than just a visual interaction, i.e. some verbal communication, as was related by one of our bearded MtF CD's in that closed thread. Because I accept everyone's right to do express themselves as they have a right to do does not mean that I may want to associate with them. They do their thing and I do mine. I think that we should all consider the bigger picture and not the insignificant possible negative results of a very few people who just happen to be expressing their rights.
Well girls I put the stick in the beehive and stirred up a hornets nest.
I am not here to dictate other peoples actions but I did want to draw a cross section of feelings from the wider community. I think I did that, and I thank you all for replying. I am just going to duck the bullets and hide for a while here.
Thanks all and I am getting stares in Berlin at the moment from GGs and older women.
Maybe I don't fit somewhere either.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
I am pretty sure they weren't ignoring you, they were avoiding you. That is your right, however unfeminine it isOriginally Posted by sissystephanie
What somebody does legally is no concern of mine. It's their business.
"I heard that a local "group" ">>> I guess I never got the invitation....lolWhile I do my best to be just another woman in the world when I go out I can't condone or condemn others for their choices.
I would prefer that we all be at our best while in the public eye to further our desire to be accepted for who we are and not what we are wearing, but I understand that some of us have needs that are not in line with this. About a year ago I heard that a local "group" would be having an outing to a local Dress Barn one Saturday. My wife and I we in the neighborhood that day and dropped in (I in drab that day). As we shopped it was all to easy to see who was who. One girl was in her 60's, had her own hair in pigtails and was wearing a pink tutu. I'm sorry, but this is not for me and I do feel it gives a bad view of us all to the general public. We look like silly, fetishistic weirdos when we do things like this.
Maybe my opinion stems from the fact that all my life I have desired to be able to go out in public. Not to be noticed, not to wave the TG/CD flag and say look at me, but to just be able to express this woman that resides in my without fear of reprisal. We all have different needs, but please...just a little decorum.
hi Cheryl
"it all unfolds before your eyes ,let Merlin cast his spell" [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
At support meetings I help with many TS/IS women that are in transition.
Of course there are also cross dressers there as well as there should be.
Here's the issue; There are two factions at our meeting which can number upwards of 50 or 60 people.
The first faction are CD's that blend to the best of their ability. This group I associate with and have many friends from.
The second faction are what I call the sex worker group. This group are CD's dressed in leather knee high boots or stripper pumps with tight dresses and makeup that would make Tammy Fay Baker look like a 12 year old boy.
Our group as a whole meets at various eateries around town prior to the meeting then we go out afterward for a few drinks.
There has been a rift for quite some time now between the sex worker crowd and the rest of the group due to the majority of the group distancing themselves from the sex worker crowd while in public.
There are a million issues with public perception of trans people being sexual deviants and to associate in public with the trans hooker set only reinforces this negative stereotype.
Hey, I'm all for wearing leather and putting a bridal in my partners mouth at home while giving her a good beating but leave it at home wear it belongs.
Julia
It's a fairly common phenomenon that some folks express mental and emotional pathologies through the vehicle of CD. In other words, gender expression is not the primary underlying motivation; CD is a device to facilitate exhibitionism, anti-social emotions, or something else. That's where you find the absurdities of shopping in a tutu or dressing like some kind of outlandish cartoon character, and we do indeed come across as "silly, fetishistic weirdos" if we do. Then there's simply a tentative connection to reality expressing itself this way. Most of us are more serious, observant, conformist, and polite than the extreme you describe.While I do my best to be just another woman in the world when I go out I can't condone or condemn others for their choices.
I would prefer that we all be at our best while in the public eye to further our desire to be accepted for who we are and not what we are wearing, but I understand that some of us have needs that are not in line with this. About a year ago I heard that a local "group" would be having an outing to a local Dress Barn one Saturday. My wife and I we in the neighborhood that day and dropped in (I in drab that day). As we shopped it was all to easy to see who was who. One girl was in her 60's, had her own hair in pigtails and was wearing a pink tutu. I'm sorry, but this is not for me and I do feel it gives a bad view of us all to the general public. We look like silly, fetishistic weirdos when we do things like this.
Maybe my opinion stems from the fact that all my life I have desired to be able to go out in public. Not to be noticed, not to wave the TG/CD flag and say look at me, but to just be able to express this woman that resides in my without fear of reprisal. We all have different needs, but please...just a little decorum.
Yes, I suppose Johnny Depp could pull that off, but it's still genderf**k and intended to provoke extreme reactions. The original point of this thread was questioning society's reactions to extreme looks and its effect on the efforts of most of us to be as normal as we can, given that our "hobby" is way out of the mainstream. The freak show may be amusing, both within and outside of our community, but it does stoke popular prejudices.
Last edited by Acastina; 01-13-2012 at 03:12 PM.
I'm totally open to people dressing as they want, but I also see the struggle the TS women are going through for acceptance. If and when I eventually leave the confines of my house I will want to look as passable as possible based on what I have to work with.
I always act with decorum no mater how I'm dressed. That's never going to change. But personally I don't think acting any way is going to "promote" our cause... Assuming we have one. Best you can hope for is to not damage or detract from "it".... Imho.
Karen Strikes Again!
A smug look and a smart answer.
I need your photographer and writer.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
Ms Hutton, I bow to you.
I find it ironic, and perhaps a little worrying, that as a group supporting each other against the expectations of society at large that we should not wear women's clothes, here we are suggesting that we should conform to the expectations of the TG community at large that we should attempt to fool strangers into thinking we are women whenever wearing them. For me this is about being myself, it is about not having to lie about what and who I am and while a big (bigger than I thought) part of me is Rachel, a big part of me is Dave too and this beard is not coming off.
Surely a successful outcome for us would be that the world regards clothes as irrelevant and no-one else's business. At that point it wouldn't be a taboo that the sex industry could exploit, and no-one would bat an eyelid at a gorgeously dressed person, nor wonder which genitals they had underneath, no-one would be fazed at a man with a beard in a dress, nor a woman in a chalk-strip suit and bowler hat. (Hmmm.) I know we've got to be sensitive and we've got to take one step at a time but it's not the stubbly chins that brings disrepute to us, it's the ladyboys in the porn, isn't it?
hugs for everyone!
Rachel x
Darn right GG's call out other GG's for 'exhibitionism and improper decorum.' I'd say GG's make more comments concerning ill-dressed, sloppy, ****ty looking women than a bearded guy in a dress. After all, another GG represents GG's. A bearded man in a dress? Well, he doesn't represent them at all.
Stephanie, do these GG's call out the other poorly dressed GG's to their face, or by just making comments among themselves? I personally have never seen a GG make that kind of comment directly to another women. I have seen the low life GG's attacking others for whatever reason they have, but not regular GG's. Probably because a decent person GG, or not, does not need to lower themselves to anyone else's level. So, that being said, most people do or have at one time made comments among themselves on how someone else has presented themselves in public, but it seems to me, it is the men who normally cause the majority of the public disturbances when they don't like how someone is dressed or is presenting themselves.
Lets face it, it will never matter how we represent/present when all you need to do is type crossdresser or transsexual into a search engine. Compared to the results you find there, we're a very very small minority.
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
In my experience, what you express as yourself being "pretty sure" about is not accurate. Some of the people I know have gone through periods (years, even) where there were reasons sufficient for them to keep their beards. I never observed them being avoided when we were out.
My hair is shoulder-length; it is not clear to me what the point of my wearing a wig would be? Is it the few stray white hairs at the temple? My wife has more white hairs than I do (but concentrated in different places.) Is it my hair color that is a problem? Would it be acceptable to the Arbitrators Of The Cause if I just dyed my hair the same shade as a wig? My hair color changes with the seasons, from Golden Blonde in the high summer though to Dark Ash Blonde by the beginning of winter, and Light Golden Brown by the end of winter. All of which are popular GG hair colors. Is that the problem, that my hair color looks too natural and needs to look more fake to be acceptable??
I have gone out in a skirt or dress with no wig more times than I would bother counting. And I do not mean "Go out on the town", I mean to my appointments, or grocery shopping, or on the bus, to a restaurant, whatever I happen to have to do that day. Just like a GG would who happened to choose to wear a skirt or dress that day.
What signs should I be looking for to tell that people are avoiding me? They don't move away from me, they don't stare at me, they don't look at me and then avert their gaze, they don't hide their children's eyes, they don't look at me and sniff loudly, they don't refuse to talk to me (*). What they do do is talk to me more than when I used to present as a guy.
How many people around the city have seen me by now? I don't know. Certainly more than 10,000, I am I sure. I might be "very few", but I get around, just going about my business. I am the first "real-life" cross-dresser that many people have seen, and Yes, I do make a difference, just by being myself and doing every-day things. A "man" wearing a suit-skirt and standing on the bus holding cartons of milk, is not a threat or a spectacle: s/he is an example that cross-dressers and transsexuals can be "just ordinary folk".
(*) Though there was one woman who was clearly Not Talking To Me. She came in to the nail salon 25 minutes before closing, expecting a hour-long treatment, and she was quite demanding, including insisting that the owner hand over a bottle of polish that was in use so that she could have a look at it. The owner didn't say anything to the woman, but instead of hustling to take care of the woman, the owner and her sister both paid attention to me. The woman got hot under the collar and glared at me :shocked: .
Okay, so I was "being used" a small bit there to point out to the woman how low she ranked. The owner was more than prepared to lose the woman's business, but she was not going to risk losing my business by dropping what she was doing to work on the woman. As the owner said when I saw her next, she may be running a business that depends on clients, but that doesn't give anyone (like the woman) the right to treat her like a servant. Her cross-dressing clients might be eccentric, but they treat her well.
Last edited by sandra-leigh; 01-14-2012 at 06:16 PM. Reason: missed a "not"
Sandra, whether I clearly made my point or not, your example of how you live your life does it for me. Your experience is not necessarily exactly what I was pointing out. I personally applaud and like what you are doing, especially the interacting with others. I was trying to make the point that when it is a small minority that is different, not just in the LGBT area, that small minority will probably have very little if any impact on the general public's opinion on the larger majority that the small one may be part of. Bringing it back to MtF CD's who go out with facial stubble or beards, mustaches, or dressed as woman with short hair, i.e. no wig and not trying for the full female look, the topic of this thread, those that do that, in general and in my opinion, will have minimal, if any, negative effect on the opinions of others regarding the larger MtF CD population. In fact, I believe that they have a positive impact on others. What you have described as your experience shows that if someone acts naturally and interfaces with others, even the beard or mustache becomes a non-issue and truly does give a positive presentation of who we are, real people who may in the eyes of others look and/or dress differently from them.
I have to say, I'm really kinda shocked at the intolerance expressed for others here.
[SIZE="4"]Momarie[/SIZE]
When I started reading this thread as well as the other one like it about a week ago, wondered something. What do I know of my situation and the other person's presenting differently than I. A guy in a dress with a beard or hair anywhere not expected is just a guy in a dress. If the person is not wearing makeup or a wig then they don't care so why should I. If he is out and asking me if I have an extra wig and can he use it then I might have a thought. Or maybe he lost it in a fight but if no make up and wearing a stache and beard. Hummm I don't know. If I saw in a man in a evening dress and a beard a wig, madeup nicely hose and heels, I might start looking for a camera man as I might be on a movie set. If I was not at home and forgot my razor would I dress and go for it. What of the situation. I know i am not pretty but I still want to look pretty good(smile). At least that's what girls do.
Contessa Marie
[COLOR="blue"]Contessa Marie D
I'm TG. A fem-male so I look male sometimes.
Dressing is necessary, the type of clothes you wear not so much.
This above all to thy own self be true!
Look…here’s the deal…
This is an issue here that people here will NEVER agree on. You have your segment of Cd’s who are damned and determined to do exactly what they want, and nobody will ever convince them differently. They don’t care about passing or blending in, or if people think they’re an escaped mental patient in public. They want a free pass to do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want, in other words “anything goes”. Then you have the segment of Cd’s who do their very best to blend in and pass in society. You also have the pompous Cd’s who pretend to be “appalled” by all the intolerance. This segment is possibly the most amusing.
It’s a vicious cycle that will never change, and basically it’s like beating a dead horse.
Supposing that you are right on that: is that a problem?
When women in England started wearing pants, were they trying to "blend in" ? Did they (as a group) stop wearing pants because some people literally thought that they were insane? I know some people still think that "allowing it" Ruined Society, and I know that some people still push for laws (or at least school rules) requiring girls to wear skirts or dresses on "moral grounds" -- but 100-ish years later, does the average person care? And if so, is not that caring more on the side of now believing it is unreasonable to prohibit women from wearing pants?
You would feel I was being less damaging to society if I went out in guy clothes that were "saggy pants" style, than if I went out in a dress but no wig?
Sandra there is no reasoning with Marcie. She is bent to her way or no way. She was on the offensive in my thread from this past week where I asked how many went out with facial hair. My thoughts are like yours, as to the women weren't trying to pass but be themselves. That said thats all I want to be, ME. The laws are changing here in the US to give me the right to do just that. My wearing a dress in public is no different from when the women began to wear pants, which is now common place. Billie Jean
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