My Wife Avoids Talk of CD'ing

[jaglover]

and another thing if you'll excuse me banging on. Speaking for myself, I believe passionately that the dressed-up me can be a fantastic husband, father and provider and all-round great person to be with (no false modesty here...) but, I won't get a chance to prove that to my wife unless she will give me the benefit of the doubt and let me demonstrate it to her.

It's a heart-rending dilemma. The SO fears she will lose her guy if she lets him loose on all this but because she doesn't let him loose he can't prove her fears are unfounded. YMMV of course.

[Allsteamedup]

As a GG who has been through all of this can I add a few thoughts?

You are a husband and father of small childresn.Your wife is a mother and probably works, too. The reason that people in your situation dress in support groups is to keep your cross-dressing out of the house while the children are around. And their little friends etc.


Next, as a father, who gets the bigger share of your salary, your female alterego or your children?

And Time. How much time do you genuinely have to hold down a job, do your chores, have family time and time with your wife? And how much does that leave you to dress?

And when your wife comes to you with a concern, be it family or work or finance related, how much of your attention do you genuinely give her?

What you are asking for (dressing in the home in front of her, going out socialising dressed, shopping and make up tips) is what a wife may offer after YEARS of knowledge of your dressing and when she genuinely has the time to do that. For example, when the children have left!

You are asking far too much and do not appear to have anything to offer in return for the time and money to be invested by your wife.

The main reason women will not get involved in a 'discussion' like this is because they can sense how one-sided it will be. (You want to do all the talking, she has very little to offer in return by way of reasoned argument).

The next thing that shines through your story is that her views don't carry much weight with you anyway.

The best place for a discussion like this is away from the home. Perish the thought the only reason you would plan a weekend away with her would be to only discuss something like this, but neutral territory (not her home) would be a good idea.
As has been mentioned, she does not have to like this cding, but if you can guarantee to keep this away from your children she might be agreeable to your dressing at a group (the agreeable bit taking into account that she is looking after the children while you do it). If you allow to do the same for her so that she can take up a hobby, remember that you will have to find time from somewhere to spend with her, so your cding may come at the cost of giving up a male pastime.

The picture that you have painted here of your wife is quite bleak but remember one thing. SHE HAS PUT UP WITH YOU THIS FAR!!

[BRANDYJ]

Kate expressed her opinion, the harsh reality of the situation as she saw it. Can we get back to Renae?

And I expressed mine in my not so harsh reality. Someone gives an opinion that I don't agree with, I'm going to respond...Just like kate did. I have no hard feelings toward kate for her opinion, but a counter opinion was deserved and needed in my opinion. However, i will agree, we should get back ontrack to the OP's original topic.


Good post Allsteamedup.

[Marleena]

I have been trying to avoid this thread as it happens far too often. But we have a new member who is truthful to his wife and there is no "Big Lie" or deceit. The OP is looking for advice from us and some type of acceptance from the wife (which may not happen).

My suggestion is a third party, (counselling) if the wife will agree. If that doesn't happen I see marriage troubles. CDing doesn't go away, the OP has obviously tried to stop.

[Jenniferathome]

what is it with all this shopping crap? I like to think I'm a normal genetic female and I really dont like shopping that much - too crowded, too boring - why on earth do CD'ers have SO many clothes ?

Dear Silent, I thought I'd chime in on this one as I have an idea as to the "why". I suspect for most, as it is for me, buying something is like a small substitute for actually crossdressing. I tend to buy when I can not dress for a time. Kind of Li,e a stress release valve, maybe. As a result, we accumulate clothes (I too, however, am too practical so I don't have "too" much in the closet). And to address Katie's comment about style and appropriateness, I agree. Most men have no clue about style and tend toward ****ty (most will describe it as sexy, but it's not) without help. Per time, I think most learn what is appropriate, particularly if you go out.

[Valerie1973]

My wife avoids talking too. She jumps to conclusions. She is a poor listener and often impatient and will interpret a message prematurely. Hearing is the passive reception of incoming messages, whereas listening requires full engagement with another person. Effective listening requires that you attend to people's words and feelings-which by the way, takes more energy than speaking. Societal norms also dictate our behavior. Societal norms guide what clothes we wear, what we wear to bed, to a funeral. When we switch things around and ware dressed and skirts, well, this offends people. That's just what they call the norms. She either needs to accept you or let you go. I've told this to my wife several times. Regardless whether I can or can't change we as people resist change or thrive on it. When we feel hopeful, we are more open to learning, more able to solve problem creativity,and more resilient. I wont bullshit you, I don't have all the answers. -Valerie

[Jenniferathome]

the wife in this instance has been quiet clear about her intentions.

Katie, I wanted to address a theme running in your commentary. My read on the post is that the wife has clearly NOT stated her position. In order to state a position, you have to STATE it. Now, if after a discussing the subject and her position is, "I never want to see it, talk about it, etc.", then so be it but that marriage is doomed. Not becuase a wife refuses to accept, or because the crossdresser wants her to, but because they can't communicate. No topic should be off limits for discussion in a marriage; kids, politics, sex, tv shows, wall colors, nothing. Communication is the key to success in any marriage, CD involved or not. Don't ask, don't tell didn't work in the military and it doesn't work in life.

It is her right, yours and my wife's to refuse to be with a crossdresser or stay with one, that's the beauty in life, we all choose. But to choose one has to weigh both sides.

[Niya W]

Now your starting to see what the word acceptance means several hidden things. One of them is that many CDs see acceptance as the avenue to escalate thier activites! Also acceptance can be seen as the beginning of the severe days where it escalates from pantyhose and panties to going out into the world dresses as a woman.

You did realize that just in this posting all the responses that talked about continueing to talk to the original posters wife. Some of them are relentless and cannot overlook the fact that the wife is NOT going to change her mind. Actually they do feel that constant pressure will over time crack the concrete wall and open the door for that panties, to out the door dream.

Of course not ALL CDs are like this but I got to say that the countless ones I met ALL and I mean ALL stived to get to go out to the gay bars and shopping.
That seemed to be the holy grail and many became content if they got to that point. The sex and dating men crap I saw at Southern Comfort and surely that was just a percentage of the CDs that were there. Of course like any convention there is sex after the days activities. LOL.

Katie

We must be on 2 different plants. Most of the CD's I met like doing every day activities. Most of the CD's I've met respect the boundaries there wife set . If the dressing becomes a problem the back off. The don't spend every penny the get on cross dressing. There a lot that I've met that only dress in seclusion . I only met them cause they were at a another CDs house .

[Niya W]

I dont get it - what is it with all this shopping crap? I like to think I'm a normal genetic female and I really dont like shopping that much - too crowded, too boring - why on earth do CD'ers have SO many clothes ? it just seems such a waste of money to have so much more than will probably ever get worn regularly? maybe I'm just way too practical....

Different strokes for different folks. My mom and sister has tons of dresses. In two years you will never see her wear the same dress to church.My mom has over 50 pairs of shies .

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Jennifer, I can understand the shopping substitute for dressing - this is what my OH does I'm sure. I am actually a little like that with beads - when I cant make jewellery for one reason or another, I shop for components - so I do understand this substitution thing.

Brandy, dont worry too much about us GG's - we're obviously a fairly tough bunch - we're still here! lol and having chatted to you I appreciate there are many different levels of CD'ing and many different levels of requirement. I do take your point about not meeting the more "normal" CD'ers - as you say, they dont go out dressed.

Can we get back to Renae?

- I think we've scared her off!

With regard to the wife in the OP - I can understand why she has refused to even talk about this - whilst a "head in the sand" approach isnt going to cut it forever, I admit to having adopted this approach in the past. When I had deep suspicions my OH was having an affair, I could have found out if I really wanted to but I just couldnt face up to the truth so I didnt go fishing, believed his absolute BS and lies and buried my head deep in the sand. In the end I did "dig" and found out but it takes guts to face your fears - just as it takes guts to face your wife with the truth about your CD'ing.

Who knows, maybe Renae's wife is simply biding her time, not rocking the boat, until the kids are grown and she can kick her OH to the kerb ? if this is the case then I doubt she will be willing to talk on any level.

[whowhatwhen]

Who knows, maybe Renae's wife is simply biding her time, not rocking the boat, until the kids are grown and she can kick her OH to the kerb ? if this is the case then I doubt she will be willing to talk on any level.

Which is not good for the kids, I know this first hand and it's why I LOL at "the sanctity of marriage".

[Katesback]

I dont have a crystal ball but in nine years I am sure the wife has stared her point of view. She just these days refuses to talk about the subject.
What is there really to talk about? The CD has needs that arent met and the wife has needs that arent met. NEITHER will compromise. I mean you can sit there and try to talk to a brick wall (the wife) all day long but there is NO compromise! Thats part of the problem with CDs they tend to overlook the fact that other people sometimes have no ability to compromise on things. I have stated I wont date a CD. There is NO compromise there. I just wont. I also wont date a man for other reasons and again there is no compromise. You say marriage has to have compromise. Well I submit to you that some things are not open for compromise whatsoever.

Also dont forget you the CD singned on into the relationship as a MAN. Society has expectations of you and if your wives had no idea of your CD status when you got married then lets face it you broke your contract. As a matter of fact for those CDs out there that really are TS I submit to you that your wife will figure out your TS before your willing to admit it. She will probably let you know this in the heat of an argument and you will deny it because to do so is the kiss of death now isnt it?

Your point about the marrage failing is probably very likely. I have little doubt that will happen. I just didnt feeling like saying it earlier.


As for some of you that say I paint a picture of CDs going out and having sex and being TS. Well your overlooking the fact that I said some are this way. I did not say all. What I did say is ALL CDs I have ever met have excalated. Doubt me? Well read the countless posts in just this forum.

I am sorry CDs if I speak in a manner that is not what you want to hear. I am sorry if I scare your wives. I have no desire for anyone to be scarred. On the contrary I would rather have everone happy and living the life they want to. Sadly that does not tend to go alone with a married life now does it?

Katie

Katie, I wanted to address a theme running in your commentary. My read on the post is that the wife has clearly NOT stated her position. In order to state a position, you have to STATE it. Now, if after a discussing the subject and her position is, "I never want to see it, talk about it, etc.", then so be it but that marriage is doomed. Not becuase a wife refuses to accept, or because the crossdresser wants her to, but because they can't communicate. No topic should be off limits for discussion in a marriage; kids, politics, sex, tv shows, wall colors, nothing. Communication is the key to success in any marriage, CD involved or not. Don't ask, don't tell didn't work in the military and it doesn't work in life.

It is her right, yours and my wife's to refuse to be with a crossdresser or stay with one, that's the beauty in life, we all choose. But to choose one has to weigh both sides.

[NicoleScott]

Brandy, of course you can state your disagreement. I just saw the attention drifting away from the OP, and wanted it to get back on track, which is: Renae wants advice on getting the wife to enter into a serious discussion, as previous attempts have been unsuccessful.

[whowhatwhen]

Stating "I'm uncomfortable." and leaving it as that for 9 years doesn't count, lots of things make me uncomfortable but pretending they don't exist doesn't fix anything.
I could see it taking time before she would be ready but not after almost a decade, either you remove your head from the sand and deal with the very real issue that's not going away. Or, move on since you're expecting him to repress a part of himself that will always exist.

I'm not excusing getting attached and keeping such secrets, but I know why it happens and know what happens if you try and shove it into a closet.
Everybody loses.

[ReineD]

The sex and dating men crap I saw at Southern Comfort and surely that was just a percentage of the CDs that were there. Of course like any convention there is sex after the days activities. LOL.

You know Kate, you've posted this before, and you were corrected by some of our CD members who were there as well, and who confirmed that yes, there are some male-attracted CDs/TSs at TG conferences (just as there are among the non-TG community), but it certainly doesn't represent the extent you allude to in your posts. I do wish you would learn to be more objective when you post. When you say, "the sex and dating men crap I saw at ...", it makes it sound as if it is more pervasive than it actually was. If you come back and say this is what you saw, then I need to ask if this is what you were looking to see.

As to my own opinion about the things discussed in this thread, I can't possibly say them any better than Eryn:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2765710

And especially this one:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2765748

To the OP:
This is what I've noticed over my years at cd.com: often times a CDer starts out his relationship believing that he shouldn't impose the CDing on his wife, whether or not she knows about it. This describes someone who hasn't yet accepted himself or for whom the CDing has not developed. And so over time there develops a tacit understanding between husband and wife that the CDing does not belong in the relationship. The longer this phase lasts, the more secure a wife becomes in the knowledge that it is "a hobby that we don't talk about" and the CDer's feeble attemps to talk about it in later years aren't all that effective, as long as he holds on to the idea that his wife is too fragile to know the developing truth.

You do need to let your wife know how important it is for you to discuss and begin to resolve this and that if you don't, your mental health will suffer and your marriage also might as the result. This is not to say that you are giving her an ultimatum to accept it or you will leave, just that she needs to learn about what this is really all about rather than hang onto her preconceived notions. And after at least a 6-12 month learning time (through many thorough discussions, reading literature, maybe even reading and discussing the posts in a forum such as this one that mirror your own attitudes about the CDing), THEN she can make up her mind whether or not the knowledge that you are gender-nonconforming is too much for her. You need not dress in front of her during her learning period, and you may well never dress in front of her depending on how it goes.

If she does reach a point where she begins to understands this is a part of you that is not going away and she still feels queasy about being exposed to the CDing, the two of you can establish ground rules where you can express yourself with her knowledge (she needs to know that you dislike doing this without her knowledge) but without involving her, such as attending TG support groups, or perhaps being given time to dress at home occasionally while she is out doing other things. She needs to rid herself of the notion this is perhaps a sick, sinful, or perverted thing to do.

Only after a time of concentrated discussion about this and the discovery there is indeed an insolvable impasse, should you even consider either risking stopping entirely (if you can do so without compromising your mental health) or each moving on from your relationship if you can't. But please do not come to this conclusion right away. At the same time, do not expect your wife to learn about this through osmosis.

--------------------------------

It astounds me there are TSs in this community who would not even consider allowing their partners to express themselves, should they have fallen in love with a CDer whose needs develop over time, even if the agreement was to not expose the TS to it. It also astounds me there are TSs in our community who are unable to see anything other than a permanent sexual motive to the CDing, and it makes me wonder if they believe this because it was their own experience ... until they received HRT of course. Has anyone ever heard the saying, "If you spot it, you got it?"

Sorry, but Katesback's black and white views really frosted me.

[Marleena]

There is no communication going on between the OP and his wife regarding the CDing. Nothing can be resolved until that changes, if it does..JMO.

[Lorileah]

Maybe she finds it uninteresting. Maybe she has trouble understanding just why you want to do the things she finds basic and honestly tiring. Maybe she would like it if the discussion was actually about the two of you and not just YOU. I dunno, maybe.

When CDs start talking about dressing it is filled with "I"s and "I want"s. (Yes I look in the mirror when I say that). So when you say "I want to discuss cross dressing." even though you think you said "Let us discuss my crossdressing" the emphasis is on "I".

[BRANDYJ]

=ReineD;2766418

Sorry, but Katesback's black and white views really frosted me.

As usual ReineD, A great post. And to be honest, Katesback's post frosted me too. But I was kind and responded without attacking her or being harsh.

I also felt that a TS that has been there done that ( starting with crossdressing) would be more open if she dated a man that told her he liked to crossdress. I mean, he is expected to accept the fact that she is not a GG and has delt with issues far beyond what most CD's ever face. Like it was OK for me, but not for you. Odd.

[Eryn]

Of course not ALL CDs are like this but I got to say that the countless ones I met ALL and I mean ALL stived to get to go out to the gay bars and shopping.

Why is it that your disclaimers are usually attached to absolute statements that are far from reality?
Perhaps your social group likes gay bars but that is hardly universal. I don't care much for bars of any kind and that is accentuated by a desire to keep my wits around me when out dressed.

Shopping for me is another story, but I would imagine that there are quite a few CDers who don't enjoy it as I do.

I dont get it - what is it with all this shopping crap? I like to think I'm a normal genetic female and I really dont like shopping that much...

That question is fairly easy to answer. There are actually several reasons.

First, some CDers are attracted to the image of women as portrayed by the media. Most of those women are avid shoppers so we tend to emulate them.

Second, at the beginning a CDer is starting from scratch. She doesn't have an ongoing inventory in her closet. Sometimes we really do need an item or two to complete an outfit.

Third, shopping is a controlled environment where we can participate in an activity that we view as feminine without too much stressful interaction with others. It takes time to develop confidence in one's presentation and during that period it is best to keep interactions short and within a controlled range. Shopping meets this need.

Note that shopping is not always synonymous with buying. Mimi and I often walk out of stores empty-handed and don't feel at all disappointed to do so.

[Jill Devine]

As usual ReineD, A great post. And to be honest, Katesback's post frosted me too. But I was kind and responded without attacking her or being harsh.

I also felt that a TS that has been there done that ( starting with crossdressing) would be more open if she dated a man that told her he liked to crossdress. I mean, he is expected to accept the fact that she is not a GG and has delt with issues far beyond what most CD's ever face. Like it was OK for me, but not for you. Odd.

Agree a million percent. I am amazed that someone who basically NEEDS tolerance and acceptance is so intolerant. Fact is that most regular guys would have a problem marrying a transsexual. Just like most regular GGs would have a problem marrying a CD. All we can hope and pray for is that we are blessed to meet an open minded caring person in life.

I know I was blessed to meet my wife. Love her to bits.

[Katesback]

Yes it is probably a fact that most guys would not want to date a TS. That is thier choice as well. I dont have to like it but they have a right to make this choice. I was in the CD section talking about CD related topics. Seemed appropriate for this section. I have however said in the TS section the same thing you said. And a TS that is Pre OP is REALLY got next to no chance to meet a good straight man.


As far as needing tollerance. I dont need it. I personally could care less what people think but then I dont genereally get crap from people. Perhaps I am lucky. Perhaps I scare people because I am in decent shape and can leg press 765 pounds and do calf raises with 200 pounds. Perhaps because I play a full contact sport against 20 something women that want to run me over I have an inner strength. Perhaps because I was in law enforcement for a while I feel I can handle a lot of crap. Perhaps because I carry something between my boobs that is NOT a knife I feel I can take care of myself. Who knows.


Now as far as you all that are sitting here trying your best to discredit me. Well I stand on my statment that all crossdressers escalate. I have a feeling that all the wives would agree with it and there are countless stories about this. Does that mean that they will want to have sex with a man or another CD?

No it does not.......... but then I am keenly aware of the depth that some CDs go. Some even take on a completely different personality (when the wife is not around) than thier male self and will take the idea of being a woman to the fantastical level which sometimes includes having sex. It is NO secret that lots of sex happens at trans conferences. Thats why you see all the tranny chasers at the bar downstairs and they are busy. You sit there and you can watch them hook up with a girl and go up to the rooms and come back a bit later for the next girl. These guys at the conference get as much sex as they want and anyone who has been to the conferences can tell you I am right. come to think of it the two times I went to Southern Comfort I was propositioned many times while there. Mostly by CDs.

Does that mean that you as a CD are interested in sex? Of course not. It just means that some CDs do take it that far. Just like a percentage of CDs are really TS but will not admit it for various reasons. We have all knowns CDs that after the divorce turn into TS almost immediately. Ever notice that most CDs are married? Could that be a coincidence or are they really TS but dont want to admit it because thats the kiss of death for marriage. Call any CD related business and ask what thier big sellers are. Your response will be the psudo hormones. Wait a minnute I thought CDs dont want to transition. Why would a CD want to buy psudo hormones if they are not TS?

I am sorry guys but I am just keeping it real. I am not presenting as much my opinion as facts. I cannot tell you how many CDs have come to me when I was working with trans people and since they knew that our conversation was a privledged one they were there to tell me thier real feelings. Many yearned to begin transition and become a woman because they were TS. It's just the facts guys.

Now its your turn to try to discredit me but then its hard to argue with the facts. I am more of a champion of CDs than I am for TS girls. Most of them are so messed up you cant help them. But CDs tend to live a reasonable existance. I just wish they would stand up for thier rights and come into the world instead of hiding in closets. Take the losses that come with hard decisions and live thier lives as they see fit instead of often being miserable and unhappy and often making thier wives unhappy along with them.

Katie

Agree a million percent. I am amazed that someone who basically NEEDS tolerance and



acceptance is so intolerant. Fact is that most regular guys would have a problem marrying a transsexual. Just like most regular GGs would have a problem marrying a CD. All we can hope and pray for is that we are blessed to meet an open minded caring person in life.

I know I was blessed to meet my wife. Love her to bits.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm not going to discredit your post, hell, you know more than I do about this stuff but "escalation" seems a bit odd to me.
I thought the point of crossdressing was to look female, so escalating from wearing stockings to shaving legs feels like a non issue.

A partner may take issue with it, but why be surprised if you know that your spouse is a crossdresser?
To me, saying "no you can't shave your legs" is as good as saying "don't crossdress at all" because they're necessary escalations.

It's all in all tragic because society forced him to lie, and now his wife ends up being dragged in.
But, if it's going to be big enough of a deal then why live a hollow marriage where he can't express himself and she's feeling betrayed?

I do wonder how many CDs are actually TS though, it can't be that high can it?

[Katesback]

I agree with you on the point of crossdressing is to look female. The discussion about escalation pertains to the CD that tells the wife or she finds out some other way. They then sell the CD thing as being happy wearing panties, or some minor aspect. The Problem is that they want to emulate a woman so yes they do keep pusing and pushing for more privledges well beayond the origial panties at home sell. Of course most wifes have no idea that this is going to happen and so they get blindsided.

And it all goes back to the fact that both the wife and the CD should have the right to be who they are and with who they want. Any sanctions placed upon the CD only adds problems and any freedoms that the CD fights for adds problems from the wives side. Divorce typically end the relationship and deep down its probably a good thing for both parties because they get to live thier lives as they see fit.

Now if crossdressers were to stand up and fight for thier rights and go out into the world and demonstrate thier activities to the mass population then over time they would be more shall I say accepted. Problem is that I rarely have ever seen a CD out in the normal public and so the perpetuation of deviant behavior will remain for the forseeable future. Remember gay men were once put out to be child molesters in the 1950s public services announcements. Today after standing up for thier rights the story is different.

Katie

I'm not going to discredit your post, hell, you know more than I do about this stuff but "escalation" seems a bit odd to me.
I thought the point of crossdressing was to look female, so escalating from wearing stockings to shaving legs feels like a non issue.

A partner may take issue with it, but why be surprised if you know that your spouse is a crossdresser?
To me, saying "no you can't shave your legs" is as good as saying "don't crossdress at all" because they're necessary escalations.

It's all in all tragic because society forced him to lie, and now his wife ends up being dragged in.
But, if it's going to be big enough of a deal then why live a hollow marriage where he can't express himself and she's feeling betrayed?

I do wonder how many CDs are actually TS though, it can't be that high can it?

[rhonda]

Let face facts a women marries a man then finds out he wants to be women look alike ,or women, she has been deceived she didn't want a women very few if any will accept it so get a new women or man

[Jacqueline Winona]

Kate, I think you're painting with way to broad a brush on this one, and while I saw some merit in your original post, you lost me with the broad pronouncements about how "all CD's" want this or that, we can't even agree on whether dressing is something we can control. Regardless, your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it, regardless of how cynical many of us find it.