Don't Ask, Don't Tell --- What does it mean?

[Jenniferathome]

I have read many threads lately with a theme of DADT and the argument that it is ok or not ok, etc. But what does DADT means. Here is my thesis:

1) you can't be in a DADT relationship unless you have discussed this with your SO and came to agree on such.
2) Without discussion, you are in a DT&HYC (don't tell and hide your crap), relationship. Basically, regressing to your pre-coming out days and you ARE hiding.
3) if you are in 2, and this is where I think most DADT people are, you don't know what your SO thinks. Maybe she thinks you grew out of it...
4) if you did 1, actually discussed and agreed, does that mean just talking about it? What about seeing your clothes? Finding any trace of crossdressing? Knowing you are on this forum? What exactly? Do you have a list?
5) DADT never works. Now, while I agree with Silent Partner's comment,"For some wives its more comfortable and easier to bury their head in the sand and pretend a situation doesnt exist than have to face up to it and deal with the consequences." But because there is no list detailing the violation of DADT, the curtain is opened as some point and the Wizzard of Oz is exposed.

So to those who think they are in DADT relationship, do you fear her finding your clothes, pictures, web pages? If yes, why? I mean, she "knows" so why worry? I guess the point of my long diatribe here is, unless you talk and know the rules, you will be forever hiding and fearing discovery. Not a great place to be.

Comments?

[Laura912]

Because I am not in a DADT situation, it is not appropriate to comment except to say that it is good that Jennifer is starting this discussion.

[STACY B]

Well its kinda like being a drunk . She knows ya drink she can smell it , But she just dont want you to do it at home around the kidds or let anyone else know you are . So your a dressing drunk,, Or a drunk dresser ,, No never mind ,, Dont dress when your drunk ,, An dont get drunk when ya dress ,, Just get drunk ,, Or just get dressed ,, But not when your drunk ,,Now we got that outta they way ,,, Hey I spilled my drink on my dress ,,,, DOH ,,,,!!

[kimdl93]

Since I'm not in a DADT relationship either, rather quite the opposite, I will limit my comments to saying 1) I understand how different every individuals situation is and have the greatest empathy for anyone living in the closet; and 2) I also agree with Laura and Jennifer that a huge risk exists if it really isn't a mutually agreed upon arrangement, but rather one (or both) partners living in denial.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I'm not in a DADT situation either - my OH and I talk so maybe I am not qualified either to have any input - but since when has that ever stopped me! lol

I agree with Jennifer that if a DADT agreement is what's required, then both parties need to know exactly what the rules are - and that situation can only be arrived at by discussion. It must be a totally hopeless situation if, once the CD'er has had the guts to open up to the wife, she's then got to go back in the closet and fear discovery all over again.

My take on the DADT agreement is that the CD'er dresses when the wife is not around, but not in front of the wife and doesnt talk about it to the wife. Doesnt show the wife new clothes, makeup etc. doesnt expect wife to do the femme washing/ironing etc.

the wife knows the husband dresses but she doesnt want to hear about it or see it but she doesnt go looking for evidence or get cross about it.

This is not a situation that would suit me - but thats not to say it wont work for others. Just my opinion

[Debb]

My relationship with my wife is basically DADT. I dress; I am transgendered. She does not want to see me dressed; she does not want to entertain thoughts of me dressed; she does not want to hear about my transgender-related difficulties.

Honestly, I believe that she suspects I am having some sort of affair, or relationship, or something. I just don't get it ... and I am denied the opportunity to discuss it with her. She has a therapist, with whom she has discussed my "situation", but she won't talk about this with me, either.

I am basically at a loss as to what to do next, to tell the truth. She is quite dependent on me, and because of that, I wonder sometimes if she's avoiding telling me how she really feels because she fears that I will leave her (not gonna happen). This is a DADT situation that is very much like the former US military situation; I don't like it, but I really don't seem to have a say in the matter.

[AllieSF]

I am not in a relationship and am one who believes that a Don't Ask- Don't Tell situation is a "Lose - Lose" situation for both. I could not exist in one. I basically grew apart from my ex-wife because we lived something similar to that. She would get moody, I would ask what is wrong, and she would say "Nothing!". That sounds like a simple situation to live with or to overcome, but over time the Asker, me, gets frustrated with the lack of open communication as to the why, and the Responder, her, gets frustrated because I keep asking the same question.

I know on this site a lot of couples live in some form of that situation. I agree that there always needs to be some discussion to set up some ground rules for the actual dressing activities and how to handle future discussions. A refusal to discuss is a refusal to understand and also a refusal to try to work toward a healthy and livable resolution to the situation. As others have said, I believe that a lot of people remain in situations like that for a multitude of reasons, most of which are poor excuses for just not wanting to face the truth and deal with it. It becomes another old refrain, "Out of sight, Out of mind", which is another false belief.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jenn, I'm in a DA-DT relationship with my wife she knows that I dress and
all my things are in three different closets and my dresser.
It's just that she don't want to see me dressed and will not talk about it with me
I know my boundries and I stay within them
((Don't rock the boat because you could bre thrown overboard))
I guess you could say life is good I'm not holding my breath for a change anytime soon.

[Aloha Jayne]

Well its kinda like being a drunk . She knows ya drink she can smell it , But she just dont want you to do it at home around the kidds or let anyone else know you are . So your a dressing drunk,, Or a drunk dresser ,, No never mind ,, Dont dress when your drunk ,, An dont get drunk when ya dress ,, Just get drunk ,, Or just get dressed ,, But not when your drunk ,,Now we got that outta they way ,,, Hey I spilled my drink on my dress ,,,, DOH ,,,,!!

Stacy you crack me up. I was hoping I was in a DADT relationship. Found out it was a WTF! instead.

[Jacqueline Winona]

[QUOTE=Silentpartner GG SO;2789314My take on the DADT agreement is that the CD'er dresses when the wife is not around, but not in front of the wife and doesnt talk about it to the wife. Doesnt show the wife new clothes, makeup etc. doesnt expect wife to do the femme washing/ironing etc.

the wife knows the husband dresses but she doesnt want to hear about it or see it but she doesnt go looking for evidence or get cross about it.
[/QUOTE]


This is aveyr accurate description of what a lot of us have. As I said yesterday, one reaso nto stick with this is really to honor your wife's decision not to know as much as you want to share with her. My dressing has been going on for as long as we have been married, she is fine with panties and pantyhose in my drawer, doesn't mind underdressing, isn't too crazy about seeing me in a bra and the dresses/skirts are not something she likes. She knows I have a couple of skirts and blouses, three pairs of heels, but has told me she would rather not see me in them, and has found some of my other clothes that I keep in a separe area (I have two young children, and now is just not the time to tell them about Janice IMO). But if she wants to not know more, whether that's to save her from having this secret becoming a ball and cahin for her that she can't share, or for any other reason, I can and will live with that condition. No, it's not ideal, yes I would like more, but life isn't always fair.

[Delila]

I am not in a DADT relationship but I could not imagine having a partner that knows such an important thing about you and them not at least being willing to discuss it. I am very sympathetic to those who are in such a situation. To me the thing is almost unfathomable. If my wife had not been willing to discuss my dressing when I first told her (before we were married) I would not have continued our relationship hiding such a key part of what I am. On the other side there have been times that my wife has a hard time with knowing and understanding that it has to be a secret from the world. I have always felt bad that she has to share in my secret but has nobody that she can really talk to about it. We have a mutual friend whose boyfriend is a CDer but my wife dislikes her so she can't really talk about it with her. Perhaps what your partners really need when they are saying they don't want to talk about it is a support system or at least other friends that can share in your secret. Sometimes they need something more casual than a councilor to discuss what they feel. I know that is not only not easy but often impossible which is unfortunate. I have told my wife about this site many times and that there are people that she can talk to but she is just not comfortable discussing such things with strangers. Perhaps your SOs would be more welcoming to the option to come to this site and discuss their concerns with other GGs that have the same concerns it might be worth broaching the subject for their peace of mind as well as yours.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I wish, Delila, and all I can say is that I live with the dream, however fleeting it may be at times, that some day that will happen. We are really open about almost anything else, but this is one thing where I've made a lot of hints, admissions, etc. and I just don't want to force her to face the issue until she is ready. This is just very difficult for her as she just doesn't like it. But, she does love me and can live with my dressing so long as she doesn't have to think about it all day, every day. There are times when she has seen tv shows about dressing, and if she sees them without me, she tells me and says that it does answer questions, helped her understand that dressing has nothing to do with sexuality, etc. But I can't make her like it anymore than I can explain why this is a part of me. So, I choose to focus on what I do have, which is a situation where I can dress, don't have to hide the fact that I dress to the extent some here do, and know that she accepts it, even if tolerates it might be a better choice of words.

[Miriam-J]

As I've mentioned on a couple of threads before, I generally view DADT as a symptom of broader communication problems that hinder the entire relationship. There are probably other important issues that can't be discussed as well, and you can only getg to the point where you can discuss your CD lifestyle after you address the broader problems. If both of those in the relationship can agree to the difficult task of opening up and respecting one another you can do this on your own, but otherwise a counselor/therapist can help. If you can't deal with the broader problem, then you have to wonder why you're still together in the first place.

I lived 20+ years in a relationship with these deep communication issues. My CD habits were definitely what Jennifer so eloquently described as DT&HYC, but that was very far from the worst of our problems and certainly wasn't the reason for the eventual divorce. We got to the point through the years where we had almost nothing left that was safe to discuss, so separating became the only reasonable course. Perhaps some of you in DADT or DT&HYC binds can avoid this fate.

By the way, I no longer have this problem and I have a wife who has known and accepted by dressing since early on in our relationship. Only one part of our open communications.

Miriam

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I'm gonna jump in here and say something - I dont want to sound confrontational as its not meant to be so, I just want to put a different perspective across.

Say for instance you have been married for 10 years - you never told your wife before you were married and now, 10 years down the line, you come clean and say you are a CD'er. Your wife is understandably shocked, worried, frightened and feels betrayed. She wont discuss it with you, she doesnt want to see it or hear about it - she effectively goes into a DADT mode

Now here's my point - you chose to keep it a secret before marriage and well into your marriage, you chose when to come clean, now you want to discuss it as and when you choose. Your wife has had no choice about knowing or not, no choice about when to find out or be told, and now she's getting no choice as to having it out in the open or not - other than to just shut down and go into DADT mode. Maybe, just maybe, its the wife's way of taking some sort of control over a situation that, up until now, she's had absolutely no control over whatsoever.

I'm not saying this is right, wrong or anything in between - I'm just trying to put another perspective across - so please dont shoot me down in flames because I'm fine with my OH's dressing, and its sweet FA to do with me what any of you do or how you want to run your lives, but I can see where some wive's may be really pi**ed off about having no control about the timing here, especially if it all come out when you have little kiddies and she feels that, even if she wants to just run away and think it all through, she cant or wont because of the ties she has at home.

[Marleena]

I'm gonna jump in here and say something - I dont want to sound confrontational as its not meant to be so, I just want to put a different perspective across.

Say for instance you have been married for 10 years - you never told your wife before you were married and now, 10 years down the line, you come clean and say you are a CD'er. Your wife is understandably shocked, worried, frightened and feels betrayed. She wont discuss it with you, she doesnt want to see it or hear about it - she effectively goes into a DADT mode

Now here's my point - you chose to keep it a secret before marriage and well into your marriage, you chose when to come clean, now you want to discuss it as and when you choose. Your wife has had no choice about knowing or not, no choice about when to find out or be told, and now she's getting no choice as to having it out in the open or not - other than to just shut down and go into DADT mode. Maybe, just maybe, its the wife's way of taking some sort of control over a situation that, up until now, she's had absolutely no control over whatsoever.

I'm not saying this is right, wrong or anything in between - I'm just trying to put another perspective across - so please dont shoot me down in flames because I'm fine with my OH's dressing, and its sweet FA to do with me what any of you do or how you want to run your lives, but I can see where some wive's may be really pi**ed off about having no control about the timing here, especially if it all come out when you have little kiddies and she feels that, even if she wants to just run away and think it all through, she cant or wont because of the ties she has at home.

Silentpartner, all valid points! I can honestly say the older TG girls had no resources like are available now. We had no idea what the heck was wrong with us so we repressed it and tried our hardest to fight it. Many of us thought we had it beat only for it to come back with a vengeance. Usually it's years into a marriage and with kids. Then it becomes "the big lie" but it was not intentional. Being transgendered is not a choice for us. We can fight all we want but it is a part of us.

I think it's wonderful that the younger kids can find out what's going on. It can save them years of internal conflict.

[Diane Elizabeth]

I am not really in a DADT relationship. The SO knows and seen me dressed. She even helps by loaning a top once in awhile. But she doesn't approve of my dressing. She doesn't ask too much abouot it either. But that is getting better. She mainly is concerned about me getting hurt if I go to the wrong places.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Silentpartner, all valid points! I can honestly say the older TG girls had no resources like are available now. We had no idea what the heck was wrong with us so we repressed it and tried our hardest to fight it. Many of us thought we had it beat only for it to come back with a vengeance. Usually it's years into a marriage and with kids. Then it becomes "the big lie" but it was not intentional. Being transgendered is not a choice for us. We can fight all we want but it is a part of us.

I think it's wonderful that the younger kids can find out what's going on. It can save them years of internal conflict.

I fully understand Marleena - my OH and I were only talking last night about this - when he was a kid there was no internet and nobody talked about "pretty boys" or "nancy boys" as they were called then. He started playing with his mum's stockings when he was 5 and kept his secret to himself for most of his life. He's now mid 50's and only started to look at forums and chat rooms once he'd come out to me - I cannot imagine the turmoil which goes on inside your heads - keeping such a thing inside your head for so long must virtually break you up inside. Things are a lot more open now and there is so much more info out there - hopefully in time society will come to understand and accept that TG's are not wierdo's and freaks, they're just different from the perceived mainstream.

[Marleena]

I fully understand Marleena - my OH and I were only talking last night about this - when he was a kid there was no internet and nobody talked about "pretty boys" or "nancy boys" as they were called then. He started playing with his mum's stockings when he was 5 and kept his secret to himself for most of his life. He's now mid 50's and only started to look at forums and chat rooms once he'd come out to me - I cannot imagine the turmoil which goes on inside your heads - keeping such a thing inside your head for so long must virtually break you up inside. Things are a lot more open now and there is so much more info out there - hopefully in time society will come to understand and accept that TG's are not wierdo's and freaks, they're just different from the perceived mainstream.

Now that you mention it a memory just came back. I remember my first day of kindergarten. I went to the back of the classroom and cried. I thought it was because I was a mommies boy. Now I realize it was because I didn't fit in and it was scary. You see I blocked a lot of stuff out as self survival. The first time I put on my sisters dress and nylons etc. it felt right, I was compelled to do it. I never felt I was doing anything wrong until my older sister caught me in it and tried to lock me out of the house.

So I went in to hiding it wondering WTF was wrong me. I always felt like I was on the outside looking in. I was shy as hell but liked the girls. I dated but was scared of sex. Boys are supposed to be agressive there. I did the macho act very well as it went along. I was overcompensating to hide my real self ( I realize that now). I was still always the strange one though. So this struggle went on for decades for me. So here I am in later life embracing the femme side and finally realizing why all the rage and depression ruled my life. Only since I accepted I'm TG have I finally found happiness. I'm so lucky my wife understands this and is not put off by it. She gets it that I never chose this. It chose me.

And now that I shared all of this I'm having a cry for the first time in a long time..

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Bless you Marleena - it must be painful to relive memories like these - no matter how old or "crusty" we might think we are, things from the past have a habit of popping and throwing us into that painful state of mind. I'm interested to read that you felt rage and depression - my OH has anger issues and the deepest, darkest depressions - they have been very scarey for me for years. He does seem to be quite a lot better since he came out to me and I have felt that this was due to the "unloading" of his perceived "dark secret". He's not out of the woods yet but for the first time in his life he is starting to open up and actually talk about his feelings - its a move in the right direction.

It can't be healthy to keep something so fundamental to "who you are" locked inside for so long can it.

[kimdl93]

...my OH has anger issues and the deepest, darkest depressions - they have been very scarey for me for years. He does seem to be quite a lot better since he came out to me and I have felt that this was due to the "unloading" of his perceived "dark secret". He's not out of the woods yet but for the first time in his life he is starting to open up and actually talk about his feelings - its a move in the right direction.

It can't be healthy to keep something so fundamental to "who you are" locked inside for so long can it.

This is so common among TG people. I would guess that most of us not only hide a fundemental part of ourselves, but we also have spent much of our lives with a deep self-hatred as well...and this all to often expresses itself outwardly as anger and depression. In my case as well. As with Marleena, and your SO, my attitudes and emotional health improved when I began to accept myself.

[Leslie Langford]

Silentpartner, all valid points! I can honestly say the older TG girls had no resources like are available now. We had no idea what the heck was wrong with us so we repressed it and tried our hardest to fight it. Many of us thought we had it beat only for it to come back with a vengeance. Usually it's years into a marriage and with kids. Then it becomes "the big lie" but it was not intentional. Being transgendered is not a choice for us. We can fight all we want but it is a part of us.

I think it's wonderful that the younger kids can find out what's going on. It can save them years of internal conflict.

Well put, Marleena - I couldn't agree more!

[cindi cinnamon]

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" relationships, (IMHO) seem to be relationships built on "DENIAL". I don't see anything good coming from these relationships over the "long haul".

My wife and I share everything that is important to building and maintaining a healthy, loving relationship. She is very understanding and accepting..... I'm very lucky in that regard.

[StacyPump]

I would agree that living in a DADT, or DT&HYC is not the ideal for a realtionship. But, it does imply that the crossdresser has at least made the attempt to be honest with his spouse. At least, that's what I am telling myself! That's where I am right now. My wife knows I dress, but she doesn't want to see me dressed, or find clues lying about.

For example, a few days ago, she came home from work, and looked closely at my eyes and asked, "something's different about you, what is it?" Well, I had spent the day working from home, in full Stacy mode (had a great day, too, btw!). So, I told her that what she was noticing was probably the eye-liner and mascara that I had been wearing all day (tough to get it all off!). We didn't have the chance to talk about it too much right there, with our child around, but I did bring it up again later in the evening. She re-affirmed that she wasn't ready to discuss it, or see the evidence of it. "Please make an effort to put everything back."

So, sadly that's my story. I would love to be able to have had a fun conversation about makeup removal right then and there, but we're not ready for that. As I wrote above, I am able to live with this because it means, to me, that I am trying, finally, to be honest about this with her, and because of that, I am able to look her in the eyes again.

As a side note, I'd also like to think that not only did she notice remnants of eye makeup, but perhaps she also noticed in me a growing feeling of comfort with being Stacy, and the growing seed of self-acceptance that just might be finally starting to blossom....starting...

[Kate Simmons]

Well Hon that expression was started by the military concerning gay people in the closet, so that about sums it up. The expression has since been modified for other aspects of life.

[DCChris]

DADT was indeed started as a military policy response to gay and lesbian military members, and its application toward those so identified and their superiors laid out fairly specific and easily understood rules. This included absolute rights of privacy unless disallowed behaviors were witnessed, etc.

I'm not so sure that some of the things discussed here as DADT should really be viewed as such, but more as negotiated understandings in a relationship; DADT privacy and disallowed behavior was never subject to negotiated understandings between gay servicemen and women and their superiors. I just wouldn't conflate the two, imo.