hey.....GGs do wear pants, so........

[Inna]

I have seen posts repeatedly arguing that if GGs can wear pants then it should be absolutely fine for Crossdresser to wear a skirt!

[SIZE="4"]And that is fine.........but![/SIZE]

this argument is absurd.....or is it!

Well, in my personal opinion, and by personal I mean "educated and socially derived attitude" I believe that comparison is false to most degree but yet not totally false.

In the general sense, without going into history of why, wearing clothes has no particular motive other then our ability to regulate comfort, protection against the environment and most of all, hiding our sexual organs from plain view although lately I could argue this as well

For a GG, [SIZE="3"]and please I want some GGs here[/SIZE], clothing is esthetic but that is it, the act of clothing them selves is rather void of any message other then surely everyone wants to be presentable.

For a CD wearing female clothing seems to be pointed to one direction and that is to appear, feel and exude image of a woman, therefore even though not sexual in nature it really is gendersexual in presentation. Therefore the name, [SIZE="3"]Cross-Dresser[/SIZE]

as in the schematic below:

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


In the historical context however GGs graduated to wearing pants simply because pants meant power, and unjust control, and therefore woman's lib movement did what it needed to do, get women into pants!

[SIZE="5"]So what is your take on this:[/SIZE]

[Miranda-E]

historicly is was about power and rebellion. today that power is a fixed issue, history is forgotten, and its just a double standard, one which is great and I love.
Its one of the few perks of all the work.

[Stephenie S]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Women wear pants. So women are crossdressers. We've all heard this a hundred times over.

SO WHAT?

If YOU want to wear a skirt, go ahead. There are no laws, neither God's nor man's, prohibiting this. So stop your whining about how much better women have it and go get dressed, for goodness sake!

Stephie

[Momarie]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I wear jeans, I don't stuff them with something to appear to have a penis.
I don't paste on a mustache, wear men's colonge, wear a man's hair style, wear men's footwear, hide my breasts, pad my shoulders, change my voice, adopt masculine mannerisms, and act "manly".

For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

I hope my reply doesn't offend anyone.

[girlygirly]

historicly is was about power and rebellion. today that power is a fixed issue, history is forgotten, and its just a double standard, one which is great and I love.
Its one of the few perks of all the work.

Men don't need to put on a dress to rebel against women. We can just stay out late, lose interest in sex, or start dating men.

[Inna]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I wear jeans, I don't stuff them with something to appear to have a penis.
I don't paste on a mustache, wear men's colonge, wear a man's hair style, wear men's footwear, hide my breasts, pad my shoulders, change my voice, adopt masculine mannerisms, and act "manly".

For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

I hope my reply doesn't offend anyone.

Momarie, thanks so much in engaging in the conversation, and if you do offend anyone it isn't because you are not true but that someone is riding on a testosterone stallion spewing fire and spraying bullets of masculinity. We need more of girls engaging in the conversations here, it will bring the reality and femaleness to the forth front and educate those who seek to know, and then those who don't want to hear it, well, they don't have to read it!

[Karren H]

Didn't your mother ever scold you that just because someone else got to do something doesn't mean you get to do something?

[kimdl93]

I agree with you. I don't put any value on the "but women wear pants" argument. Its a simple rationalization, not a justification. If a GM wants to wear women's clothing simply for esthetic purposes, he's certainly entitled to do so, because he chooses to. He doesn't have to point to women to justify his choice.

Of course, like many CDers, I choose to wear womens clothing for more than esthetics. Its my feeble attempt to express my inner self, by emulating or presenting as a woman to the extent of my ability. I don't have to justify my expression to anyone.

[Cynthia Anne]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing


I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I wear jeans, I don't stuff them with something to appear to have a penis.
I don't paste on a mustache, wear men's colonge, wear a man's hair style, wear men's footwear, hide my breasts, pad my shoulders, change my voice, adopt masculine mannerisms, and act "manly".

For a CD...it's MORE than just clothes.
For a GG...it's just clothes.

I hope my reply doesn't offend anyone.

I don't think anyone should be offended for you telling it the way it is! I would hate to dress in fem and try to express myself as a man! Hugs!

[YorkshireRose]

Hi Inna great post and one as you may have read in a previous post of mine I have strong views on. On a personal level I've never found ggs look attractive in pants but that is purely from an asthetic view point. However I stand by anyone's right male or female to wear what ever they like and here in lies my issue. Men have many reasons for wanting to come accross as a girl, some sexual, some as an expression of their female side and some because they just love female attire and a plethora of other reasons.

If a gg decides they want to partake in activities more associated with men, ie football, until recent years going to the pub or chooses to wear jeans, pants etc, they won't be any fear of ridicule or assault. This is obviously how it should be, however should man want to do the polar opposite then it is taboo and against social norms.

So yes Inna I am very supportive of ggs and am a great believer in equality and the right to be able to express yourself with no fear of ridicule. If there was people wouldn't feel the need to hide CD from SOs and the world at large.

Charlotte

[Presh GG]

I've been told [ yes, by cd friends ] that I look damn hot in my jeans because I have the natural figure for them.
Thanks Momarie, I don't have the energy for this one again.

Presh GG

[BRANDYJ]

Part of what started women wearing pants was World War II. Mnay have heard of Rosey the riviter. That was coined when many women went to work int e war time factories to help build the weapons of war. Due to saftey issues as well as comfort in doing laboor that uintill the war, was mostly men's work, women began wearing pants and over-alls in the factories.

I too think the argument that women can wear pants so we should be able to wear skirts and dresses, is absurb and childish , quite frankly. In the first place, the average man wearing a dress of skirt and not trying to look like a woman with the help of padding, makeup and a wig, is just plain rediculous looking to me. Why would we want to see that every day on the streets! So I kind of like things the way they are. That is, mern in pants and women in either pants,dress or skirt, whatever she likes. IUnlike men, she is beautiful in anything she might wear.

[Foxglove]

I have seen posts repeatedly arguing that if GGs can wear pants then it should be absolutely fine for Crossdresser to wear a skirt!

[SIZE="4"]And that is fine.........but![/SIZE]

this argument is absurd.....or is it!

Hi, Inna. Yes, the argument is absurd. But you have to understand: it's the last ditch effort on the part of a guy who wants to put on a dress, but can't quite convince himself that it's OK to do so. How do I know this? Because I used to use the argument myself (and I found it very, very convincing at the time).

But consider the poor CDer's dilemma:

"Jeez, I'd really like to dress up as a woman today."
"Well, that's OK, mate, have at it."
"Great! Now, what are the girls wearing these days?"
"Jeans."
"But I'm already wearing jeans."
"Then you're already cross-dressed. So you can save yourself a lot of trouble."
"That's not fair!"

I think you might consider this point as well. I grew up in times when women wore dresses a lot more often than they do today. My sister had some beautiful stuff. So your budding CDer had a target to aim for, he knew more or less what he needed to do. His mother and sister(s) served as excellent role models. Can women these days honestly say that they're doing the same for their sons and brothers? I really think that women are letting us down big time.

But the real source of our resentment is this: a woman puts on a dress (and yes, it does still happen these days), she looks fabulous. A guy starts looking around for some dragon to slay in the hope of winning her admiration. I put on a dress and even the sheep in the fields are laughing at me. I ask you, Inna: is that fair? Is it?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Inna]

The point of Crossdresser wearing clothes as in "Just liking to wear women's attire" is null. If a man likes to wear women's clothing just for such purpose he then will not shave his body hair, no make up, no wig, no indication of wanting to be read as a woman but bluntly just wearing clothing or even heels because they appeal more fashionable or comfortable. I have seen such occurrences and it looks goofy yet it seems a powerful statement of sorts.

For the purpose of this thread though I have taken only CrossDressing as a form of expression to be seen as a woman and not pure expression of rebellious nature.

PS: it is so good to see all of you GGs engaging here, thank you sooo much, LUV!

Hi, Inna. Yes, the argument is absurd. But you have to understand: it's the last ditch effort on the part of a guy who wants to put on a dress, but can't quite convince himself that it's OK to do so. How do I know this? Because I used to use the argument myself (and I found it very, very convincing at the time).

But the real source of our resentment is this: a woman puts on a dress (and yes, it does still happen these days), she looks fabulous. A guy starts looking around for some dragon to slay in the hope of winning her admiration. I put on a dress and even the sheep in the fields are laughing at me. I ask you, Inna: is that fair? Is it?

Best wishes, Annabelle

I hear you girl, and yes, "THIS IS NOT FAIR" and what we had been dealt at the onset of our lives isn't fair, but we are here, making strides, putting make up on, dolling up so that we can have a glimpse into her image, into truth and if just for a moment feel whole. I have lost family, every bit of fortune I mustered, gone under knife, did HRT just to look into mirrors reflection and see her, see ME one body, one soul. We literally shall go to ends of earth to achieve the unachievable and through laughter, ridicule and resentment we shall power through to the other side, such is a power of self, against all adds!

[Foxglove]

I hear you girl, and yes, "THIS IS NOT FAIR" and what we had been dealt at the onset of our lives isn't fair, but we are here, making strides, putting make up on, dolling up so that we can have a glimpse into her image, into truth and if just for a moment feel whole. I have lost family, every bit of fortune I mustered, gone under knife, did HRT just to look into mirrors reflection and see her, see ME one body, one soul. We literally shall go to ends of earth to achieve the unachievable and through laughter, ridicule and resentment we shall power through to the other side, such is a power of self, against all adds!

Very well stated. I wish I had learned this lesson a long time ago: I must be me, or I will be nothing. I never have been me, and lots of times I feel like nothing. You have moved mountains. I'm starting with mustard seeds. But it is a start, isn't it?

Annabelle

[ReineD]

CD dressing: Male wanting to appear Female

Agreed, even though moods might change between for example flirty, business, vampy, sexy, cute, girl-next-door, casual, but still always with a definite opposite-sex (female) flavor.

GG dressing: Female wearing clothing

Agreed, even though we also have different moods, sometimes we just want to be comfortable, sometimes fashionable, sometimes sexy, but still alway with a definite same-sex (female) flavor.

The point of Crossdresser wearing clothes as in "Just liking to wear women's attire" is null.

Also agreed. However, I've noticed over the years there are fewer members who say this as they discover or give themselves permission to be in touch with their dual gender needs. It used to be many CDers hated to identify as transgender because they believed this meant they were TS which was not an accurate description of how they felt. They felt this description negated their also valid male feelings. Now I think the idea that some people can be outside of the gender binary (neither strictly or fully male or female, but a combination of both just like the ability to be fully bilingual), is becoming less threatening for many members here.

I haven't seen the "it's not fair that women can crossdress by wearing pants" argument nearly as often as I used to.

If a gg decides they want to partake in activities more associated with men, ie football, until recent years going to the pub or chooses to wear jeans, pants etc, they won't be any fear of ridicule or assault. This is obviously how it should be, however should man want to do the polar opposite then it is taboo and against social norms.

That's not true. Have you ever seen how many men take cooking classes? Dance lessons? Drawing and painting classes? Years ago a group of parents were involved in making a classroom quilt to be sold at my children's school's fund-raising auction. A dad did the bulk of the work himself. I'll tell you that he was greatly admired by both the other dads and moms.

Times have changed. Thank goodness.

[KateSpade83]

A man's reputation in society can affect his job prospects, so wearing skirts or carrying a purse will give him a "gay" label and will hurt him in employment. There still is a lot of gay discrimination in employment, and I've had my share of it. That's why if I crossdress and go out I make sure I'm almost 100% passable as a woman, I don't want to look like "a man in a dress."

And women do get bitched out for wearing pants. I saw a woman in a store buying men's pants and another lady called her a "pants fag." Women also bitch and look down on butch dykes that dress up like men. I bet a lot of people don't like Chaz Bono, and I don't like her myself... Like why would a women not like women's clothes and being beautiful? What is the attraction to boring men's clothes?

And then women's pants are practical for women, - like in winter.

[Cheryl T]

Well, personally I find that a woman in the right slacks/blouse/heels outfit is very sexy, so I don't think it has anything to do with anything.

Most of the time when I'm out shopping or something like that I'm in jeans/slacks with a cute top and flats or sneakers. It's what I'm comfortable in for the occasion. It's not that I don't enjoy skirts and dresses....I MOST CERTAINLY DO....it's just that I wear what's comfy for where I'm going....just like any other woman.

There is no conferred right to wear anything because someone else wears something. There should just be the right to wear what you like...and I do.

[Miriam-J]

For a GG, and please I want some GGs here, clothing is esthetic but that is it, the act of clothing them selves is rather void of any message other then surely everyone wants to be presentable.
For a CD wearing female clothing seems to be pointed to one direction and that is to appear, feel and exude image of a woman, therefore even though not sexual in nature it really is gendersexual in presentation. Therefore the name, Cross-Dresser.

OK, I'm among those guilty of making the unacceptable argument about GG crossdressing. I can't say I really buy it myself, but find it useful to throw in a little food for thought from an historical and ethographic perspective occasionally. But, I do disagree that clothing is simply an esthetic expression for GGs, or that they just want to be presentable. Many of the GGs I've observed will choose clothing and makeup that are intended to influence the opinions and/or reactions of those around them. If they want to provoke a sexual reaction, you'll see the heels, short skirts, and low-cut blouses (in summer anyway). If they want to be accepted as a serious businessperson, it's suits and serious shoes. If they'd like to receive little or no reaction it's sneakers and sweats. Makeup and hair are tailored to match each of these, chosen from a fairly vast array of cosmetics. Don't tell me this is purely or even primarily functional.

Of course, I do the same thing as a man but have a far less expressive set of tools. Suits to casual to sweats. No makeup options, but some (not me) can do a little with the hair.

When I crossdress, it's also designed to elicit a certain type of reaction from those around me. If I could be accepted as just a guy exercising his god-given right to wear a dress, I might do that. But I'm not comfortable with being seen as a man in a dress so, like many, I choose to use enough makeup so it's not obvious (didn't do too well on the avatar picture though!). This takes more than on most GGs just because the underlying appearance is so different. I have to wear a wig as very few women have just stubble on top of their heads. Now for the hypocritical part: I do prefer a skirt and heels - but I know quite a few ladies who do as well. Besides being a personal preference, it adds to the supposed illusion and helps to elicit the desired reaction.

I know that CDs are all over the spectrum on this one, and some wear only items that are designed to be sexually provocative. I really don't understand that subgroup, but I don't need to. I know that I'm not alone in my own preferences, and I'm sure that many of these can understand their own choices as just a desire to elicit appropriate reactions.

Miriam

[Jenniferathome]

You nailed it. Women wear WOMEN's pants by the way. Wearing pants is no more an act of crossdressing for a woman than a man who wears a kilt. That argument is nonsense

[Silentpartner GG SO]

precisely Jennifer.

I have seen posts repeatedly arguing that if GGs can wear pants then it should be absolutely fine for Crossdresser to wear a skirt!

Does anyone really believe the argument that women are cross-dressing by wearing pants so it should be ok for men to wear dresses? I doubt it

Let me ask you - if Armani (or some other reputable fashion house) introduced a range of beautifully tailored men's dresses, with the male form in mind - how many of you would buy them? I'd hazzard a guess at not many. Why? because they would be men's dresses and from my understanding, the reason you buy and wear women's clothes is because they are WOMEN'S clothes, to present as a woman, hence the false boobs, wig, make-up etc.

In the historical context however GGs graduated to wearing pants simply because pants meant power, and unjust control, and therefore woman's lib movement did what it needed to do, get women into pants!

I wear jeans - almost exclusively. I've got ratty jeans for doing messy jobs, comfy jeans for lounging around, smart jeans for going out a I've got jeans in lots of colours - but they are all women's jeans. I dont want to present as a male, Just as Momarie has posted, and as I said elsewhere, I dont strap on a dick, false beard etc. I woiuld be mortified if someone mistook me for a bloke - it would be a bit difficult because I have rather large boobs - but then again.......

I certainly dont wear jeans/pants for any type of power kick or statement - I wear them because they are comfy, hardwearing, practical and fit me.

I just dont like wearing skirts or dresses and only own one dress - a long black one for a fall-back if I need it. They are totally impractical for most of the things I like to do - and as for heels - well I dont know many women who do their housework in a pair of 4 inch heels! I do wear heels with my smart jeans though.

For a GG, and please I want some GGs here, clothing is esthetic but that is it, the act of clothing them selves is rather void of any message other then surely everyone wants to be presentable.

not strictly true - well certainly not where I am concerned - in my single days I would dress for an evening out in a particular way, depending on whether or not I wanted to attract the opposite sex - and this wasnt always a conscious act - just as body language can say whether a person is available or not, even though it is mostly done subconsciously.

So I'm afraid as far as I'm concerned, the "she can so why cant I" argument just doesnt hold any water - if men want to wear dresses - well good luck to them, its got naff all to do with anyone else - but please dont try to justify it with some spurious argument about women cross-dressing because we all know thats really just a croc of sh*t!

[Aylineira]

There are already men's pantyhose and thongs for sale. The reason why I don't buy them is because of the crazy prices. Have you seen them? It's like twice to 5x's (or even more) money to purchase one of those.

Obviously if Armani does make dresses fit for the male form, it would do badly since crossdressers probably represent only a minor percentage of the male population and thus lose loads of money.

However I do get your point, if there were no differentiations between male or female clothing or let's just say even more that the social stigma wasn't present for crossdressers -- would we still crossdress?

I don't know the answer to this since I can only draw from how society is presently.

What I do know is that women have been making the same arguments as this... if men can do it, why can't we? And we are only making the same generalizations; that if women can do it, why can't we? Are there more motives behind this? Most likely so. Can it be defined? Not indefinitely. Therefore the statement isn't a "croc of s***" as you have so plainly put it. Let's remember that the men in Ireland can wear a skirt (kilt) no problem and there is no negative societal pressure associated with it...and still wear it.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I think you are kind of missing my point - yes women have used the "if men can do it, why cant we" but thats not what I called a croc .... its the idea that women are cross-dressing by wearing pants this is, IMO wrong.

I guess it depends on what you (or anyone) classes as cross-dressing.

If a guy puts on a dress but goes out and acts like a guy, making no effort to try and pass as a female , is he cross-dressing? or is he just a guy wearing a dress? In my opinion, he's not cross-dressing - there is no attempt to conceal his true gender, he's not trying to pass as a female.

Likewise, if a woman dons male attire but clearly acts as a female, I dont consider she is a cross-dresser. However, should she don male attire, pad pout the genitals to give the appearance of a penis, stick on a beard and get a crew-cut then in my opinion, she would be a cross-dresser.

The analogy of a female wearing women's jeans and acting as a female - and a man dressed in a wig,make-up and a dress, high heels etc. is, in my opinion, spurious or as I put it "a croc of sh*t"

As far as I can remember, the issues over which women have said "if a man can do it, why cant I " have been things like male dominated trades such as welders, builders etc. or male dominated business positions, or the dual standards regarding sexual promiscuity - i.e. its fine for a guy to have dozens of sexual partners and one night stands - he's being a lad but if a woman does it, she's being a ****!

I cant remember hearing too many women saying "guys dress up as women and pretend to be girls, why cant we dress up and pretend to be guys" but you may know different

[ReineD]

However I do get your point, if there were no differentiations between male or female clothing or let's just say even more that the social stigma wasn't present for crossdressers -- would we still crossdress?

Absolutely, but it wouldn't be called "crossdressing". If we lived in a society where men and women's clothes were identical, but women differentiated themselves from men by painting their faces green, CDers would paint their faces green and it would be called "crosspainting". lol

If there was no differentiation at all in terms of clothes, hair length and style, makeup, jewelry or any other adornment, then CDers would just don forms and hip pads, and it would be called "crossbodying".

Ok. Just having fun here.

What I do know is that women have been making the same arguments as this... if men can do it, why can't we? And we are only making the same generalizations; that if women can do it, why can't we?

Well, not quite. When we do it (whatever it is), we do not pass ourselves off as men.

Granted, there are a few members in this forum who do not hide their maleness when they dress. They present just as they do normally, except they wear skirts and maybe heels. No wigs, no makeup, no forms, no body shaving. Such a member might be entitled to ask the question, "if women wear pants, why can't I wear a skirt". But, I think it's safe to say that very few members on this board want to be seen as a regular guy who is wearing a dress, in the same way that a GG wants to be seen as a regular girl who is wearing jeans.

[Babette]

Inna, I couldn't agree with you more! Regardless of gender, I notice the clothing that people are displaying seem to reflect 1) practicality, 2) functionality, and 3) style to fit the occasion. Yes, that includes me too. If the temperature is cold, I will be wearing long, comfortable pants and not a skirt. If it is hot, then I will be wearing shorts and a T-shirt. If I am working outdoors and the conditions are rough, I will surely be wearing rugged clothing that can take the abuse. If the occasion is more formal, then I will be dressed appropriate for the setting. This is 2012 and GG's have the right to be no different!

Babette