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Thread: Do we have the “right” to crossdress?

  1. #1
    Complex Lolita...
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    Do we have the “right” to crossdress?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse
    Do I have the right to crossdress in public? I think so.
    [SIZE="2"]Recently, there was a thread, begun by Ms. Larousse, where the idea of “rights” was put forth during the discussion. I chimed in, stating that rights are imaginary, or an illusion. This happens to be a theme of mine – whenever someone mentions rights, I will say they don’t exist, and this often leads to further discussion behind the scenes. In this case, I got a PM about my declaration (was I trolling?), since the author of the OP didn’t want to derail her own thread. I explained myself, and, in response, I received the words quoted above. I’ve been trying to write about something else, but this concept of having the RIGHT to crossdress in public fascinates me...

    What exactly is a “right?” A right is a just and fair claim to anything whatever (like a power or a privilege) that belongs to a person by law, nature, or tradition. A right is also that to which one has a just claim according to law, justice, etc, in an upright way. Speaking of justice, in order to do justice to this idea of “rights,” we need to think about law, nature, tradition, and belonging...

    Laws are rules of conduct established and reinforced by the authority, legislation, or customs of a given community. Also, a law is any rule or principle expected to be observed. I find the phrase “given community” to be telling in regards to rights – surely I have the right to express myself by dressing contrary to my birth gender, but, in my given community they would rather I stay out of sight, for the good of the people (children) who cannot understand such a thing. If I saunter forth in my cute schoolgirl outfit, in broad daylight, placing myself perpendicular to all straight-line thinking the locals may possess, am I not bumping into their right to have a world with clearly-defined gender roles? I wonder. Do I have to yield my right to crossdress in public in favor of majority rule? After all, I doubt if anyone considered the plight (or existence) of the crossdresser when the rules were drawn up for “upright behavior,” so does my purported right hold water?

    What about the laws of nature? These so-called laws are a sequence of events in nature or in human activities (same thing!) that has been observed to occur with unvarying uniformity under the same conditions. Since I have declared on several occasions that crossdressing is natural AND inevitable, I think we must have the right to crossdress in public under the laws of nature. I mean, we’re stuck on this spinning ball, with few options in regards to gender expression, and the progress of civilization has created space for LIVING. Therefore, wouldn’t it be human to try everything, even if it questioned these human laws that constrain expression and emotion? I saw the phrase “question everything” on TV the other night, put forth as an empty challenge. If I, or we, actually do question everything, then we have the human right to dress as we see fit, since it is a form of questioning. I suppose I have the right to question everything, correct?

    Let’s talk about tradition. A tradition is a statement, opinion, or belief that has been handed down from one generation to another. A tradition is also a long-established custom or practice that has the effect of an unwritten law. No doubt about it, crossdressing is a human tradition. It has existed for thousands of years, so, by rights, it should be seen as an entrenched custom or practice, and thus accepted for what it is. Of course, attitudes towards crossdressing change like the weather, and we are now in a stormy period of intolerance. In my little corner of the prairie, there is NO tradition of crossdressing, but traditions, real or imagined, drive the blinkered minds of the locals. If I were to say “There is a tradition of crossdressing throughout history,” THEY would surely reply “Not around here, it ain’t....” and the censure, either voiced or delivered, would shortly commence. It is an unwritten law that you shouldn’t crossdress in such a place, and I wouldn’t expect to find many champions of transgendered “rights” in the Land of Nod...

    There’s one more thing to discuss, namely the concept of “belonging.” The right to crossdress in public surely belongs to me, but do I put myself at risk to verify its existence? I have a very close relationship with my “self,” and I have the proper qualities to “be” who I choose. The world sees me as a crossdresser, if they see me at all, but I just see my “self,” dressed appropriately for true living. Surely I have the right to do this AND belong in the family of humans, but I am very much in the minority, a queer individual, meek by definition, so the laws and traditions of those in charge tend to exclude people like me. Rights should be the same for everyone, regardless of how they are dressed, but immense effort is required to affect change, effort I would rather employ in the pursuit of happiness. I belong in the transgendered community, but out there, out in the world of gender-specificity, I don’t belong, even though I have a “right” to...

    I keep thinking about this concept of rights as it pertains to me, the semi-closeted crossdresser. I don’t have a SO at the moment, and I don’t expect to have one in the near future, but if I DID have a significant other, one who was disturbed by my penchant for crossdressing, I could say, “I have the right to crossdress!” What if she said, “Well, I have the right to not like it, and I have the right to express my displeasure about it....” She has a point, which I why I dislike this idea of trotting out “rights” to claim that something we feel belongs to us – we’re stepping outside the rules of conduct that have been established to keep everyone in line, and that means that I, or you, the gender-queer explorer, are going a little too far. Do the powers that BE have the right to constrain us? Apparently, since they are by-and-large elected or sanctioned by the public, charged to wield power as they see fit. We may be seen as a type of threat, not to unseat the powerful, but to undermine the upright traditions that a given community bases itself upon. All because I want to wear panties in lieu of uncomfortable male underwear, or enhance my lips with a little color...

    Do we have the right to crossdress in public? I guess so, if you want to put it that way, but I prefer to avoid this idea of “rights” and do what I can, when I can, according to my own relationship with the real world. I’m not a foundation-shaker, and I’m not an activist seeking change – I crossdress for pleasure, in an attempt to distance myself from a reality, or a human community, that either cannot or will not incorporate me into its distracting traditions. That’s fine by me – I can be happy and leave rights to the righteous. They’ll never see me as a moralist, even though I am a law-abiding citizen that never creates a scene for the sake of creating one. I could certainly tap into my “right” to crossdress in public by walking out the front door of my house, skipping across the street to see my male neighbor, the former mayor. I could say to him, in my best approximation of a female voice, “I’m expressing my right to crossdress!” As soon as he realizes there is no costume party nearby, and no joke forthcoming, I will know, purely by facial expression alone, just how meaningless my purported “rights” are...

    It’s not easy out there, but we certainly have a right to do whatever we want to do in private, I suppose, unless someone (like a SO) would prefer we didn’t. I’m very lucky in that regard...


    PS – Keep in mind that I live in an area of the country where Larry the Cable Guy is not only a cultural icon, but a paragon of fashion as well. In this heady atmosphere of severe appearance deficits, any “right” to crossdress is ethereal at best…

    PPS – I wash to thank Annabelle Larousse for sparking my interest in this topic…
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
    Miriam
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    Excellent points, Freddy. I've often pondered this concept of 'rights' as well, and have thought of many such 'rights' that I probably shouldn't exercise. I have the right to sing 'I'm a little teapot' in the middle of a church service. I have the right to climb a high mountain without any safety gear. I have a right to call my boss an idiot in front of his peers. None of these seem like very good ideas, and I have to live with the reality that exercise of rights carries certain risks, sometimes impinge on the rights of others, and should not be incurred lightly.

    I may exercise my 'right' to dress as I like in public, but I think I'll stick to the notion of doing so only when the risks can be managed appropriately.

    Miriam

  3. #3
    Gold Member Cynthia Anne's Avatar
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    Very well said Frederique! I exercise my 'right' to dress as I desire daily! Even though my nic' of the woods is surrounded by Larry the cable guys! I'm just a plain redneck girl 'til I get all fancied up and head into town! Hugs!
    If you don't like the way I'm livin', you just leave this long haired country girl alone:

  4. #4
    I accept myself as is Gillian Gigs's Avatar
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    With rights and freedom comes responcibilities. The problem is that most people want the rights and freedoms, without any of the responcibliity that may come with it. Do others have the right to impose their ideas of what is right on the masses? If an individual is not infringing on another person, or doing any harm, then any wouldn't anyone not be able to dress as they pleased!
    I like myself, regardless of the packaging that I may come in! It's what is on the inside of the package that counts!

  5. #5
    My Ship has sailed? Barbara Ella's Avatar
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    Very well presented. I do believe that there are certain inalienable rights that as humans we all possess. Nearly all of the others that are laid claim to are not rights, but privileges or abilities that must be protected by consensus. True rights can never be subjected to any form or consensus. Having said that, i will defend to my death your "right" to cross dress and confront the mayor as you wish, because I believe this is the right consensus for those of us who possess the ability to cross dress, and do not abuse the privilege. And thank you for sparking our interests in this.

    Barbara
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    I may never get to fly like the other girls, but I do so want to dance, so I continue to climb.

  6. #6
    Just a little mouse. Babette's Avatar
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    I believe that people have many rights that are either implied, self declared or provided by law. However, exercising a right is no guarantee of free passage. Denying anyone their rights puts the offender at risk of legal or physical consequences.
    Someone else's imagination is a terrible thing to waste.

  7. #7
    Aspiring Member Edyta_C's Avatar
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    I have read and also believe that "rights" are bounded. Responsibiliity is a bound. But really my rights end where your rights start. So, I would conclude that We don't necessarily have the "right" to crossdress anywhere. Just my opinion.

    Edy

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jacqueline Winona's Avatar
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    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    Kind of says it all in my mind.
    But everyone else is free to dislike crossdressing and to react however they want as well. So long as you can live with the reactions, and the reactions don't cross the line, you have liberty to protect crossdressing whereever you want.

  9. #9
    New Member TheresaLynn's Avatar
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    Interesting Frédérique, thank you. I've never particularly discussed that topic, but have debated rights before. Generally leaning in the same direction as you. This is good food for thought.

  10. #10
    Crazy Lady
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    And yes, there were crossdressers and non-op transsexuals in England and France in the 1700's. India's history of partial op transsexuals goes back 4000 years if I remember correctly.

  11. #11
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    I love your posts Freddy! All I can say to this is you gotta fight for you right!

    Now let's PARTY!!!


  12. #12
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    Of all the responses so far, I agree most strongly with Barbara (post #5).
    Babette (post #6), I'm not quite sure what you meant by rights "provided by law". Our constitution doesn't provide rights to us, it protects the rights that we are born with. Such as, the right to free speech/expression (read: crossdress). As people organize, they have agreed to reasonable restrictions (can't yell FIRE! in a crowded theater-it's dangerous).
    If law provides us with rights, it can take them away.

  13. #13
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    Absolutely!!!!!!! Women wear pants.

  14. #14
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Now my serious reply. We all have rights and Cding in public is one of them. It's up to us to choose that path or not. However people's rights are trampled on every day, everywhere. Knowing your rights is important. Sometimes they hope you don't know what your rights are and use it to their advantage. Knowlege is power. So then it becomes a matter of ignoring the trampling, explaining your rights, or following up through the legal system.

  15. #15
    The best of both worlds Kathi Lake's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm a milquetoast, but this is what I teach my kids; you have the right to be and do what you like, until that infringes upon the rights of others. Call me silly, but I really care about the rights of others - and have defended those rights for over 31 years, so far.

    Kathi

  16. #16
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    This is an excellent discussion. I agree with the contention that there is no such thing as a "right"; there are only "restrictions. Whether it is decreed by the laws of the land, or imposed upon us by the moral teachings of our family and our faith, there are certain things that we are not allowed to do. The U.S. constitution, which is a very good example of an understanding of this concept, does not create any rights, but merely imposes restrictions upon the government that prevents it from disallowing certain specific things. It does not prevent the government from passing laws that are designed to ensure such things as public safety, as long as it does not contradict one of the specified restrictions.

    Following this logic, governments pass laws which prohibit things such as murder, robbery, forgery, and a myriad of other felonies, as well as rules of the road, zoning requirements and on and on. When governments are lobbied to pass such things as transgender rights, any resulting legislation is simply an illusion. It is already a criminal offense to assault anyone or cause them harm. In most modern societies there are laws concerning firing someone from their job without just cause. The right of an employee to dress as he or she prefers conflicts with the right of the employer to specify what is appropriate apparel for the job. In fact, everything that we like to think of as a "right" opposes someone else's right in the opposite direction. Legislated rights do little more than reinforce the status quo.

    Others mentioned that along with "rights" we have to also consider responsibilities, which are the opposite of rights. In fact the two go hand in hand to ensure an orderly society. It is my responsibility to protect other's rights just as it is their responsibility to protect mine. But just as rights are an illusion, so then are responsibilities. Nobody, including the government, can impose a responsibility on us if it contravenes one of its constitutional restrictions, or breaks the law of the land.

    Veronica

  17. #17
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    Oh for goodness sake ladies! Of COURSE you have a right to crossdress.

    This debate against crossdressing "rights" smack of the absurd reasoning of the religious right claiming that my demand for the "right" to control my own body interferes with their "right" to practice their religion.

    Bull twaddle!!

    Certain rights trump all others, personal rights among them.

    And BTW, how you dress in public is a personal right. And also, BTW, you will find, once you get past your own guilt and shame over this, that NOBODY gives a sweet flying patootie WHAT you wear in public. Dress like a clown, dress like a cowgirl, dress like an idiot. People may make fun. After all, you have to own your own behavior. But you do have that right to dress how ever you choose. All arguments to the contrary are specious and absurd.

    Auntie Stephenie

  18. #18
    Member Sophie_C's Avatar
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    This is the most REPRESSED, puritantical question I have ever heard. YES, we have the right, as human beings, to dress as we want, with the catch that, like ANYTHING ELSE, it cannot harm another person in the process, unless they're an adult who consented to it. No one is harmed by you wearing a dress unless you wear it in front of your children or SO.

  19. #19
    The Girl will Out! Kaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie_C View Post
    This is the most REPRESSED, puritantical question I have ever heard. YES, we have the right, as human beings, to dress as we want, with the catch that, like ANYTHING ELSE, it cannot harm another person in the process, unless they're an adult who consented to it. No one is harmed by you wearing a dress unless you wear it in front of your children or SO.
    I don't think it is a simple as that... my kids, but no-one else's? Come on, the broader discussion is about how expressing our 'rights', perceived or otherwise, 'impact' on others...
    Kaz xx

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  20. #20
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    In this country a person has the "right" to do anything that is not expressly forbidden by law!! So Yes, You do have the "Right" to crossdress unless your state has specific laws against it, which I doubt exist! Now if you are going to be harming someone else by dressing enfemme, such as children, than you should think twice before putting on that dress. But that has nothing to do with your "right" by itself. It has everything to do with how your "right" inpacts on others. And that is the one thing that many CD's don't consider!!

    So Freddy, "rights" do exist whether you think so or not! The question is how do you use them?
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  21. #21
    Member Lorenqt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeInGeorgia View Post
    And yes, there were crossdressers and non-op transsexuals in England and France in the 1700's. India's history of partial op transsexuals goes back 4000 years if I remember correctly.
    You are absolutely correct. Crossdressing and transsexuality actually has a broad history. We (TS & CDs) have probably always been around.

  22. #22
    Member Debutante's Avatar
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    Yes, we certainly have the "right" to crossdress in private... and we should exercise that. It would be nice to have the
    freedom to exercise that right safely, in public. That is hard or dagerous to do.
    --------
    Love your woman within...

    Know thy self -- Be your true self......

  23. #23
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debutante View Post
    Yes, we certainly have the "right" to crossdress in private... and we should exercise that. It would be nice to have the
    freedom to exercise that right safely, in public. That is hard or dagerous to do.
    Debutante, it may be hard or dangerous to crossdress in public where you live, but that is certainly not true all over. That is a common misconception that, unfortunately, many crossdressers have. Usually because they have never gone out in public dressed enfemme! I have been going out like that for the better part of 60 years, in various parts of the United States, and have never had a problem. Since my wife, who always did my makeup and fixed my wig, passed away 7 years ago I had to change my style of going out enfemme. I still dress totally enfemme, but wear no makeup and no wig. In other words, I am a man dressed enfemme. I go everywhere I feel like going, and have never had any problem at all!! Unless you are dressed totally inappropiately, meaning not covered properly, nobody is going to care!! The problem is with the crossdresser, not the public!!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  24. #24
    Member Vanessa Storrs's Avatar
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    I am not a constitutional scholar but as I read the US constitution especially the first and fourteenth amendments i do not believe we have a right to crossdress, however the state (meaning all governments) does not have the ability to limit what we may or may not wear.

  25. #25
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    Hi, Freddy!

    I thought I might summarize my views on this question since I didn’t really do that in the PM’s we exchanged. There I was waffling a bit and asking more questions than I was answering.

    This question of rights is a vexed one because it depends on your world view as a whole. E.g., if you believe in a god or some sort of power higher than humanity, you’ll have one view of rights. If you don’t, your view of rights can be very different.

    Whenever someone says, “I have a right. . .”, my immediate question is, “Who says?” That is, it seems to me that rights are things that are granted to us by some higher authority—God, law, tradition, etc. I think that rights can be divided into two classes: “natural rights” (sometimes called “human rights” or “God-given rights”) and “societal rights”. “Natural rights” are those rights we have for the fact that we’re born human; they’re rights granted to us by our creator or some power higher than humanity. “Societal rights” are those rights that we humans grant to each other. We decide among ourselves what we’ll be allowed to do and what we won’t.

    As far as natural rights go, I believe they’re nil because I don’t believe in any conscious power higher than humanity—or at least no one’s ever given me what I consider persuasive evidence of such a thing. Some may say it’s a pretty bleak view, but I believe that we human beings stand on our own in this universe and it’s up to us to make our lives as good as we can.

    Imagine that you’re lying in a hospital bed dying of some incurable disease at the age of 22, and you shake your fist and cry out, “I have a right to live!” Who are you talking to? If the doctors can’t save you, who’s going to intervene and let you carry on? As far as I can see there’s no power in the universe that cares whether we live or die, eat or drink, find happiness or misery. So I don’t think we have any natural rights.

    This isn’t to say that I object to talk about natural rights. “All (wo)men are endowed with certain inalienable rights, and among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”: I don’t mind talk like that, even though I don’t think it’s true, because in my view what we’re doing is enunciating certain ideals that we’d like to respect among ourselves. And I believe that such things are very good things and we’d all be better off if we respected each other’s rights to them.

    As far as societal rights go, we may or may not have them. The question I raised was, “Here in Ireland do I have the right to crossdress in public?” I think I do, in the sense that, as far as I know, there’s no law against it. But suppose I live in a community where if I do appear dressed in public, people make my life so uncomfortable that I feel it isn’t worth my while? What will we say about the situation: given that societal rights are ultimately rights that we grant to each other, will we say that I don’t have a right to crossdress since people won’t allow me to do it, or will we say that I do have the right but that people are preventing me from exercising it?

    Or, since there are laws on the books forbidding murder and assault, will we say that I have a right not to be murdered or assaulted? As I mentioned in one of my PM’s to you, there have been cases in recent times here in Ireland where killings and serious assaults went virtually unpunished. So if I can be killed or assaulted and the culprit goes unpunished, will we say I don’t have a right not to be murdered or assaulted, or will we say I do have those rights but they’re not being protected? You’ve talked about rights being illusory and given examples (e.g., those Japanese-Americans who were interned during WW II in contrast to German- and Italian-Americans), and I think you’re making a good point. If rights can come and go, are they truly rights?

    I believe that it’s useful to talk about rights. E.g., I know that if I go down to the station and buy my ticket, nobody’s going to prevent me from getting on the train. I will have the right to ride it. There’s a referendum coming up shortly, and I know I will have the right to vote in it. Nobody’s ever stopped me from voting before, and they won’t do it this time. So I believe that we do have certain societal rights.

    The problem is that they can come and go, they can be temporary, and they can be uncertain because they may not be respected or protected. It’s why it’s good to keep an eye on things, so that you’ll know (at least reasonably well) where you stand. Presently in Ireland, you don’t have the right to marry someone of the same sex. That may possibly change in the relatively near future. Then you’ll have the right. Though possibly you could lose it again later on.

    That is, I do believe we have certain societal rights. But they’re slippery things.

    Best wishes, Annabelle

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