Looking back...ignoring the data

[Jonianne]

.......I can state with 100% certainty that I never identified as a man, and have been fully conscious of that throughout my life. I've never so much as used the term to apply to myself........And without a corresponding female identity, it led me for a long time to think I was androgynous TG.......

I never identified as a man either. I remember clearly around age 6, vowing to myself I would never be like the men in my life. And at age 8 I made a promise to stay 8 for the rest of my life, so that I would never grow up to be a man. And it wasn't because they were bad or hurting me. They were very good to me and very protective. I just did not and could not identify with men. As a child I did not consider being female, but I did choose to identify and role model after my mother and grandmother. That was just innate in my personality.

[Anne Elizabeth]

I'm confused too. On occasion I've had wives ask me what is the difference between a CDer caught in a pink fog, and someone on their way to realizing they are TS, since many of the data points are the same. I don't know what to answer, since ultimately it boils down to how the individual feels about him/herself. No one can measure this.

I know men who are not into sports or any of the stereotypical guy things like drinking with buddies, ogling women, etc, and who feel comfortable talking about a variety of topics with both men and women. Yet as far as I can see, they are not trans. Does a preference for the gentler things in life and an ability to talk to women mean that someone is transsexual? Is this a meaningful data point?

Maybe it all boils down to always having known the male persona was a mask? Looking back and detecting GID from the very beginning, even if there was no name for it then?

Reine:

I believe you last sentence is spot on. I myself fit plainly into the typical male stereotype, yet there were many times when doing the male thing I was always in thinking in the back of my mind darn I wish I were a female. I don't think you can say "I would rather play with the girls, do the girl thing, have dolls, converse with the women rather than the men." would make a person a TS or even a CD. What I can say is, if there is a feeling of being born in the wrong body, or would rather be a woman than a man, then I believe there is a GID and if that person can't reconcile living as the birth gender and be content then there is a need to live as the other either through CD'ing to full transition.

I used to say crossdressing helped me to relax. However, after a few years of very deep thought and reflecting I believe the reason I am relaxed is because I was presenting as my real self, I am taking the mask off and letting the real me through.

I hope that I have giving you my perspective and when you are talking to the wives(spouses) I truly believe that if what I have mentioned comes out then there spouse has GID and they may have a need to ease that GID with simple CD'ing or go the full way to changing there gender. The key is what has to happen in order for the person with GID to feel right and what can both partners live with.

I also would like to let you know that I really appreciate your knowledge and you posts. Many times what you have to comment is well written and well said and very thought provoking. It has helped both my wife and me to begin, fully, or try to understand ourselves. THANKS!

[arbon]

There was a lot of data, and it created a lot of confusion for most of my life. Through out childhood I struggled with it and into adulthood.

One thing that was kind of interesting that happened a year + ago, my wife ran into an old friend / roommate of mine from my early 20's. My wife was curious and asked her if she knew about some of the my issues when she lived with me, and my old roommate said to her "oh, you mean that he is gay and likes wear women's cloths?" I remember back then I was so messed up about it all, even went to psychiatrist, I really wanted help to figure out what was wrong with me. He did not help me with that issue, but he did help me get sober, but once sobered up and feeling like I was starting a new life I thought I could deal with it and got married. Shoved those feeling down and tried to pretend it was not me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Lots of interesting experiences to share!!! wow!!

ts true that looking back is through "xxx"-colored glasses... and it can be fluid too..

reading the responses, the overall memory that gets stoked is how I had figured out a way to "be a guy"...how i fit in by my wits and personality..which i matched to whatever group of guys i met...and perhaps i shared the not fitting problem with many guys that didnt fit in...but that's irrelevant to ts and tg people...they coped with their issues too..and i gravitated to outsiders because we shared that mindset

Reine your comment about genderless moments is spot on..

The incredibly deep feelings of emptiness and confusion around my MANY guy moments was a mystery to me...it was so bad that I drank and drugged my way into oblivion at most social events..which made me very popular with the guys..and it obliterated my gender right along with it....ANYTHING i could do to obliterate my gender ..i did it..

WE COPE with a horrible existential problem...from the moment we are little kids...thoughts in our head don't fit with our apparent lives...and we deal with it... using every weapon in our brain...
it's an example of how hard it is to figure yourself out, and how we contort our thoughts and our lives to fit in and try to experience an authentic life.....
it such a personal and solitary thing, we have no way as we are growing up to figure it out...i didn't talk to 12 yr olds or 20 yr olds or 30 yr olds and try to gauge whether they had the feeling that they were empty like i did...
So my coping thoughts became dogma... they were me...i had no way to know i was missing out on an authentic life, i never mentioned this to a soul for almost 40 years..

and i can see in what many people write here the same coping that i did...for them, that's data...it doesnt necessarily mean anything...its totally and completely your responsibility to figure that out,
you see the advice that you need to be "brutally honest with yourself"...This is an example of that means in practice...

[Rachel Smith]

The incredibly deep feelings of emptiness and confusion around my MANY guy moments was a mystery to me...it was so bad that I drank and drugged my way into oblivion at most social events..which made me very popular with the guys..and it obliterated my gender right along with it....ANYTHING i could do to obliterate my gender ..i did it..

WE COPE with a horrible existential problem...from the moment we are little kids...thoughts in our head don't fit with our apparent lives...and we deal with it... using every weapon in our brain...
it's an example of how hard it is to figure yourself out, and how we contort our thoughts and our lives to fit in and try to experience an authentic life.....
it such a personal and solitary thing, we have no way as we are growing up to figure it out...i didn't talk to 12 yr olds or 20 yr olds or 30 yr olds and try to gauge whether they had the feeling that they were empty like i did...
So my coping thoughts became dogma... they were me...i had no way to know i was missing out on an authentic life, i never mentioned this to a soul for almost 40 years..

I agree Kaitlyn as I to fell victim to the drinking and drugs. It was just a way to avoid the pain, sadness and emptiness. The drugs I gave up long ago as I was in the horse racing business and subject to a urine test at anytime but that just increased the drinking. Since coming to grips with what I was meant to be and being Rachel all the time except at work the drinking has even stopped. Not through a concious decision on my part I just don't feel the need anymore.

Who the hell could we talk to? There was NO one and that is one of the reasons this place is so nice to come to and be a part of. Just knowing I am not the ONLY one is quit liberating in itself. Yes my many guy accomplishments made me happy yet I was empty inside and it is that emptiness that eats at your soul like a cancer. You wonder why can't I just be happy it doesn't seem that difficult for everyone else.

I will never transition as there just are no funds for that but if I can just work on living my life as the woman I am I will be happy and no one can stop me from that.


Rachel

[ReineD]

Maybe it all boils down to always having known the male persona was a mask? Looking back and detecting GID from the very beginning, even if there was no name for it then?

I spoke to my SO this evening about this thread and she brought up an interesting point. There is no doubt that men's gender roles have been changing since the 70s & 80s, with more women entering the work force. More women are earning college degrees than men now. In many marriages today, the wife earns more money. Our blue collar/manufacturing jobs in the US have dissipated and men are out of work. In other marriages, it takes a dual income to live, and men share the childcare/household chores with their wives. Women have taken on a stronger voice in managing the family's finances. In some marriages it is the wife's work that determines the geographical transfer while the husband needs to follow and take a secondary job in their new location.

It's generally a confusing time for men, who see the gender gap narrowing, who perceive a decrease or a loss of their male privilege, and so many men may feel emasculated even if subconsciously. How would this affect a genetic male who has transgender predispositions? Would the lure of expressing femininity be stronger? This may be more true for CDers than TSs. I haven't read any papers or theories about this, it was just an idea that my SO brought up.

[CharleneT]

two short answers:

DeNial, a wide and deep river

Hindsight: always 20/20

[Andie Elisabeth]

I spoke to my SO this evening about this thread and she brought up an interesting point. There is no doubt that men's gender roles have been changing since the 70s & 80s, with more women entering the work force. More women are earning college degrees than men now. In many marriages today, the wife earns more money. Our blue collar/manufacturing jobs in the US have dissipated and men are out of work. In other marriages, it takes a dual income to live, and men share the childcare/household chores with their wives. Women have taken on a stronger voice in managing the family's finances. In some marriages it is the wife's work that determines the geographical transfer while the husband needs to follow and take a secondary job in their new location.

It's generally a confusing time for men, who see the gender gap narrowing, who perceive a decrease or a loss of their male privilege, and so many men may feel emasculated even if subconsciously. How would this affect a genetic male who has transgender predispositions? Would the lure of expressing femininity be stronger? This may be more true for CDers than TSs. I haven't read any papers or theories about this, it was just an idea that my SO brought up.

So you have described my childhood except for moving away. No woman in my close family is/was acting in a stereotypical feminine way. All of them, mom and both grandmas, are independent and strong. When we moved to place where we live now, except for dad who lives elsewhere, there were only two girls in same age group and both were tomboys, so to speak. Therefore I did not distinguished what is masculine and what is feminine, except girls did not have these http://pojdmesihrat.cz/images/37326_...uto_73cm.3.jpg and did not participate ride downhill on those at that time, later there was one who did, but I was already at school and the car was too small for me get in the thrill was awesome

And when it comes to housework? I can cook, when I am not depressed and/or sick, do laundry, clean, iron shirts, etc. What is this gender gap anyway? But I don't feel like I am a guy. Is it because I lived in this enviroment or is because I was born that way? I don't know.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The ideas around things like changes to the male role, male privilege, gender gap and all the societal pressures around being male impact the way people cope with being transsexual...it can impact how you feel about yourself, but not who you are..

You start out TS, you are always TS...your internal identity is female...or you start out male (part male for TG's?)..its a very simple thought... but it doesn't do much to help you or your loved ones figure this out UNLESS and UNTIL you are totally and completely honest with yourself..

So many people say things like, "i always enjoyed talking to the girls"...but they don't take the next step and think about what it means...they say they love to do housework, or have other traits or habits that are traditionally female in nature...but there are tons of males in female roles..its especially true of people that say they want to wear femme clothes "all the time".....you have to get at what it means for all of these things....

to Reine's question, i'm sorry to say i really don't believe there is ONE answer to "how do I know" for the trans person or for the spouse.... if you want to have your best quality of life, its your own responsibility to dig deep and be honest..
it is simply on the cd or ts to be thoughtful and aware...

unfortunately because of all the hang-ups around males and females, its doubly difficult to do...and specifically with spouses its even harder because based on my experience. based on my experience, I truly believed i was male (a strange one, but male)
and I fully and truly love my wife.. but I blew it...i was not honest to myself , and i just didn't realize I loved her in a different way than men...as i've experienced transition and the end of marriage, today as her close friend and coparent, I "feel" exactly the same about our marraige...to me personally , i feel like nothing has changed except where i live...i'm just as devoted, we talk to each other the same way, we do the same things (plus some new things), it feels like it always did...

...it gets all mixed up with dressing because for dressers , its a behaviour that can be negotiated or not in every marriage...for the ts its a fundamental change to the nature of marriage itself..and for dressers there is always the next step hanging over the marraige, and for ts people its a do or die fully understood moment.... the saddest stories are folks that stayed together while the ts husband tries her level best to NOT transition, only to find that the dysphoria gets worse and worse, and BOTH partners realized they doubled down on a life that was unsustainable...perhaps reine that is your answer....until the DYSPHORIA hits, there is no way to know for you....and i mean literally no way....the mind is incredible, and in my group around my area, there are folks that denied it well into their 50's and 60's...its the dypshoria that forces your hand and forces you to be honest with yourself

[Kathryn Martin]

Reine:

I believe you last sentence is spot on. I myself fit plainly into the typical male stereotype, yet there were many times when doing the male thing I was always in thinking in the back of my mind darn I wish I were a female. I don't think you can say "I would rather play with the girls, do the girl thing, have dolls, converse with the women rather than the men." would make a person a TS or even a CD.

You are putting your finger on something. I actually do not believe that any of the examples that you have given have much of anything to do with whether a person is prone to cross dressing or is a transsexual. As I touched on earlier in this thread, looking back we tend to give more weight to these incidents than maybe should be given. There is a clear distinction between a feminine man and a woman, in that the feminine man is male and does not want to change himself into a woman. When you say: " I wish I were female" then the starting point of that question is that you are not. We see this so often that our CD friends can get caught up in a swirl of femininity which leads to wanting to be something they are not. And misinterpreting "data points" is often a significant aspect of this. If you ask " I wish I had a female body to match who I am" the question is quite different. Most transsexuals experience the world in their correct gender from birth and live their life covering their gender tracks until they transition. It is a matter of getting the body fixed.

It is in this sense that transsexuals do not decide or wish to be female or male whatever the case may be. They decide to take steps to fix themselves.

CDing is something quite beautiful. It is the expression of the femininity of a male person, someone who can often wander on the edge of the no-womans land between genders. I see it often as an expression of an inner richness even in circumstances where it is driven by arousal and sexual undertones. The step from CDing to transition, however is one that can only be undertaken with the greatest of caution. The depth of self-reflection needed to uncover what is really deep inside is very deep indeed. And in this sense data points can be misleading. They reflect things that can be found in the manliest of men and the most female of women. Many transsexuals dress to reflect their inner experience to find relief temporarily and then move on. But in a sense they are not cross dressers.

It's generally a confusing time for men, who see the gender gap narrowing, who perceive a decrease or a loss of their male privilege, and so many men may feel emasculated even if subconsciously. How would this affect a genetic male who has transgender predispositions? Would the lure of expressing femininity be stronger? This may be more true for CDers than TSs. I haven't read any papers or theories about this, it was just an idea that my SO brought up.

This is an interesting observation. The closing of the gender gap, although painfully slow is progressing, is bringing much confusion for men to the preconceived notions that society has developed about everyone's place on the food trough. I am not sure, however if expressing femininity is really a response to that confusion. As you say yourself the anchor for the expression of femininity is much deeper than an environmental influence.

[Aprilrain]

I don't know, I could pick out a thousand "things" in my life that would scream boy but none of them blind side me like the few things that say girl and in retrospect so far anyway I don't miss being a boy and I damn sure don't miss being a man!

A couple of things that have always stood out to me. One was I remember all the movies I've watched that had TSes in them. There was one in particular because it was such an obscure "Indy" film. It was about a bunch of lesbians that all hung out at a lesbian bar, one was TS. It was a dumb easily forgettable film and I don't recall any of the other characters other than the TS (she needed to work on her voice!). My fascination with ******** was another, every time I'd see one I'd wonder do I want to sleep with her or be her?? Neither really but it was a start. I'd say the strongest and most persistent indication was my sexual fantasies. As far back as I can remember I was always a girl in them. Yet another was my CDing, I hated it! For many reasons like guilt and shame but the worst was knowing that as good as dressing made me feel, if only for a moment, the realization that it was "fake" just made me want to die! Dressing in private on a part time bases was not enough I either needed this shit to go away or to BE a woman. I could handle my body as male if that is what I was going to be but seeing my male body in woman's clothes just killed me, I needed my body to be female because it wasn't going to go away.

[LeaP]

It is in this sense that transsexuals do not decide or wish to be female or male whatever the case may be. They decide to take steps to fix themselves.

CDing is something quite beautiful. It is the expression of the femininity of a male person, someone who can often wander on the edge of the no-womans land between genders. I see it often as an expression of an inner richness even in circumstances where it is driven by arousal and sexual undertones. The step from CDing to transition, however is one that can only be undertaken with the greatest of caution. The depth of self-reflection needed to uncover what is really deep inside is very deep indeed. And in this sense data points can be misleading. They reflect things that can be found in the manliest of men and the most female of women. Many transsexuals dress to reflect their inner experience to find relief temporarily and then move on. But in a sense they are not cross dressers.

This may be the most expressive description of crossdressing I've read.

The self-reflection you describe is indeed deep. It can be long and incredibly painful, upsetting virtually everything a person thinks they know.

I worked at home yesterday and was dressed all day, very simply. And the only sensations were relief and correctness. I tied my hair back for a while - and recognized myself. After a short time, I did not think about how I was dressed and just got on with my work. I was not "cross"dressed.

Lea

[Kaitlyn Michele]

A couple of things that have always stood out to me. One was I remember all the movies I've watched that had TSes in them.

Wow...this brings back memories too.... to me it was a sinking feeling... i recall watching paris is burning with a group of couples, and getting a very sinking feeling ... all the sadness and poverty in that movie, and i felt jealous ..and then we went to dinner and i listened to everyone mock them...

[Aprilrain]

Wow...this brings back memories too.... to me it was a sinking feeling... i recall watching paris is burning with a group of couples, and getting a very sinking feeling ... all the sadness and poverty in that movie, and i felt jealous ..and then we went to dinner and i listened to everyone mock them...

At the time I would have mocked too, I was very transphobic!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yep...me too...i'm sure i joined the "fun" at least a couple of times...hahahafrickingha

[elizabethamy]

Kaitlyn Michele, where were you last night when I tried to explain my dysphoria to my wife? You nailed it perfectly in your post -- the dysphoria hits and it doesn't matter what previous data points did or didn't exist, nor does it matter what rules can be negotiated...one person is trying to figure out who he (she?) really is, while the other is trying to set limits, build structures, etc. It's a loving festival of miscommunication! This thread is its own mini-seminar. How do you know? What's the difference between a CD and a TS? How does the past influence the future? How do you work this out in a marriage? etc.

Beyond the obvious "sticky" threads, I wish there were a "Greatest hits" listing in each forum. This would surely be a good one for safe haven and would be valuable to future visitors...

elizabethamy

[Empress Lainie]

A couple more things about my case: When I was a child I was just simply too good to be a boy; my mother used to brag how good I was.

Talk about denial: I cannot believe that a few weeks prior to my EPIPHANY!!!! I actually told someone I didn't want to be a woman. To me this is outrageously hilarious; Because AFTER E DAY I could not stand to live one more day as "male."

[Andie Elisabeth]

Beyond the obvious "sticky" threads, I wish there were a "Greatest hits" listing in each forum. This would surely be a good one for safe haven and would be valuable to future visitors...

elizabethamy

Actually, there is. Click on Replies or Views and you'll see "Greatest hits". Now if you'll, ladies, excuse me I have some reading materials waiting. (^_^)

EDIT: down arrow you want to see, not a pyramid (^_^)

[Anna Lorree]

yep...me too...i'm sure i joined the "fun" at least a couple of times...hahahafrickingha

Yeah, been running into this recently. One of the things I hate the most is when I realize that I have been being a hypocrite. I used to mock trans and gay because I thought it gave me cover, I was a "real man". Yeah, you can laugh at that, I do now, too...

Anna