The Fight for Feedback

[Bree Wagner]

Bottom line (At the top) - What do you do to elicit effective and constructive feedback from others about your crossdressing 'skills'?

In my line of work we're required to provide feedback to the people that work for us all the time and often to our peers and bosses. Although we often don't always do a great job of it, we try and be frank and offer constructive comments that allow people to get better at what they're doing. Now the question is how do I go about finding good feedback that can help me, as a CD, present better?

My feeling is that with pictures here we mostly lean to the supportive side of comments instead of the constructive side. That's not necessarily a bad thing since it's what a lot of people need and want. It sure never bothers me to hear great things about myself, but sometimes I'm left wanting more.

These are just a few examples of what I wonder with pictures: Could the makeup have been better? Were the shoes the wrong style/color? Would adding abelt to the outfit have made eveything better?

If out I'm often wondering a few other things: Do I look nervous? Should I be smiling more? Is there something about me that screams 'Man!' from a mile away?

None of it paralyzes or really bothers me, it's just an attempt to be better at what I'm doing. I'm stuck with a nature that makes me want to do better at everything I try, so crossdressing is no different.

I'd love to get some of the feedback it from my wife, but for now, as much as she tries, she still just sees me in a dress and she still gets the creeps most of the time if I'm in a wig. Therefore, I'm reaching out to all of you. So, as far as constructive criticism from others is concerned, what do you do to reach out and improve your art?

All the best,
Bree

[MandyGG]

Bree.

First off. Have you seen your picture from June 2010!?!?! I love you dearly, but....That was a mess! Look at how much you have grown already! Hello!

Second. If you want critique, then you have to ask for it around here. There are girls that will straight read you like a newspaper on a subway if you ask them to! Otherwise, all you will get is compliments. Which, is so sweet and really a good thing. But, I understand that you do want to grow.

Third. You are beautiful! I don't know even if there is anything that I would call you out on so far. You have great taste. You dress your age. You worry about the details, like the wedding ring, that others let slip. You are doing wonderful!! I wouldn't stress too much.

Fourth. Tell her to write me back.

[Badtranny]

Kudos Bree, but the real problem is the medium. Pictures just don't tell the whole story. Sure I can tell if your makeup is hideous or if you have a beard shadow but passability is absolutely impossible to determine with a picture. I have taken some pictures that look as real as can be, but they didn't really look like me in person. I just got lucky with a good angle and good lighting. If I were to meet you in person I could likely give you a list of things to work on, but your pictures just don't show me everything I need to see to give you an honest assessment. My advice to every CD and early TS is to surround yourself with brutally honest friends. My friends will all read me at the drop of a hat, but my biggest advantage has been my beautiful Bulgarian roomie. She is not brutally honest, she's just mean. ;-) She will tell me within seconds if something looks bad, and if she says it looks good, than you can take that to the bank. Having somebody who actually cares enough to say "hell no" is the greatest gift that any of us can have. Find these people and listen to them, they will help you get to where you need to be.

[Eryn]

You want an honest appraisal? Just ask for it in your post!

Now, don't expect to be savaged. There are polite ways of critiquing a person's appearance. Read the comments carefully and you'll pick up the information you want.

The majority of the GGs out there aren't worrying about approaching the pinnacle of beauty. It's just too much work. What they do is find a look with which they are comfortable and enjoy living life in that look. That concept works for me as well.

[sterling12]

It's very difficult to tell much of anything with a photograph. Especially about makeup. We don't know if the colors are true, if the picture has been monkeyed with, we don't know the angle, the perspective, and about a zillion other things. Best people to advise about makeup are professionals who are actually eyeballing you at a makeup counter, or something similar.

Constructive Criticism? It's there, but often you have to know how to read between the lines. We tend to say things that are positive, and we might tack on "something to work on," near the end. But, isn't that just about how you do it? Build them up, and just a little bit of a "problem solve" after we are done praising?

If you really want to get "blasted," then insult everyone, or get argumentative. Your sure to get The Results you desire with that strategy! But, is that what you really want? Each Journey of a thousand miles begins with small steps. We really aren't here to roast people, just to try and offer opinions and support. No matter what people say, experience has taught us that they are really seeking stuff like that. Somebody else will have to take The Job of "kicking puppies." Usually, we're not very good at it.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[sometimes_miss]

Bree, it sounds very much like you want to 'pass'.

If out I'm often wondering a few other things: Do I look nervous? Should I be smiling more? Is there something about me that screams 'Man!' from a mile away?

The best most of us could hope for is to not be instantly 'read' as a guy. Very, very few guys can convincingly walk like a girl. We simply don't have the same anatomy, and when we try to emulate them, we usually overdo it and end up with the same result.
GG's have to put up with constant second guessing as to their appearance as well. I can't remember the last time as a guy I changed my clothes before going out because I wasn't sure what 'outfit' looked best on me. But women do it all the time. It's because of how much their appearance impacts other's opinions of them.
Don't get down about it. Just do your best. Post some pictures here, and ask for a review. We'll all try to be 'gentle'. But remember, all the make up, hair tricks, and outfits are designed to compliment female anatomy and shapes, so it may not always have the same effect on a guy's body.
Example: a guy's 'man hands', who'se been working on cars and exposed to chemicals for 30 years, will never look the same as a woman's hands who has used moisturizing lotion for the same duration. So, no matter what you do, that pretty nail polish simply isn't going to magically convert your hands into something that looks like it belongs in a nail polish ad in Glamour.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy polishing your nails. I certainly like doing mine.

[suzy1]

I like to live in my own little world and believe everything that’s said about my pictures.
But to be serious [I obviously do look that good, yes? don’t answer that!] there are some here that would be very hurt if we really said what we thought. But if you P.M. members that you trust to ‘tell it as it is’ then that’s probably the best way to get real feedback.

SUZY

[paulinescotlandcd]

I agree with you that most people when asked of their views on photographs tend towards the positive side of things. I don't really have a problem with that but if I look at a photograph and think "jeez, could have done with a couple more layers of foundation" I tend to hold back.
There was someone recently who posted a headless shot recently on here as there first picture and it looked as though they had got the stuff out of a bin. My first thought was "are you serious" followed by "what are people going to say" Well, suffice to say the person got a compliment when i was screaming "have you got a mirror".
Anways, i babble on as usual. Your note struck a chord with me. For 20 odd years I swanned around the house in a dress etc plus makeup but when I said I wanted a wig that kinda freaked my wife out, she has slowly come round to the idea that it looks a bit better.

I see you are on Flickr so if you want an honest no holes barred, but not rude, of your look just ask. But hey, I expect two polite both barrels for mine!!....lol.

Cheers from sunny (no it is today, but a bit cold) Scotland

[Kate Simmons]

Pics are just quick shots of dynamic moves. it was mentioned that pics can be altered but mine are all done in ambient lighting in daylight. In any case the pic only tells a small fraction of the story. I'm more interested in the person behind the pic myself. Any honest assessment I would make would have to be in person. Then I can see all subtle moves and observe body language, poise and overall confidence plus I'm empathic so am tuned into the feelings of others. Otherwise I go by what others have to say either in person or in writing but nothing substitutes for interaction in person to make an honest assessment.

[Chari]

Great info from previous posts! IMO it is all about our feelings. No matter where we are on the gender scale, we must always be comfortable, content, and confident with ourself - regardless of the wrapping. Some in this forum can present (& pass) in pictures and in person as very feminine, while others may be just starting out or have been struggling with how to cover up flaws that show the "guy" side. It all takes alot of practice, trial & error, some falling down, cover and concealment, but it's also learning to try again to achieve the desired results with honest help from friends.

[Sandra1746]

It is very difficult to provide useful feedback on appearance from a photograph; beyond obvious gaffes like wearing stripes and plaids together (which I accidentally did in my HS photo...LOL). For makeup the lighting does it all and a photograph will never accurately render that. That said; I remember a recent series of photos you posted where you were going shopping and were dressed in fem-casual. I thought you looked fine, maybe a 'close inspection' would have given hints of a guy there but from any reasonable distance you looked passable; and quite nice. And this isn't idle flattery.

As an example consider the SI swimsuit models, with swimsuits. These are near-universally regarded as the paragon of femininity. But, if you get one wet with bedraggled hair, no makeup, and wearing a non-revealing garment like a loose shirt or shift, then the appearance changes to plain-fem really fast. Still fem but usually nothing remarkable. Most GGs are the same way. Dressed in casual clothing and no makeup they might be mistaken for guys but all 'dolled up' they look different.

I do fear we obsess too much about our looks. Mostly we need to get "comfortable in our own skin". That self confidence is very likely to 'rub off' on those around us. Besides, most of the folks you meet out in public aren't watching all that closely.

Good wishes and hugs,
Sandra1746

[kimdl93]

My feeling is that its very difficult to offer constructive feedback in most cases. First of all, we are not our pictures. They're at best flattering two-dimensional representations. Second, I'm not qualified. I'm still learning. At best - I know what I like, but probably not 'why' I like it. Its hard to provide meaningful criticism with such a limited skill set! And finally, sometimes I feel that offering an honest appraisal, particularly if its posted for all to see, would simply be hurtful. If I feel compelled to share honest, but unflattering recommendations, then I'd do them in a PM. (So far, I haven't felt that it was my place to do so

I know that if I can get the right lighting and camera angle, the resultant photo can look ok. But, that a poor representation of always how we will look in real life. The most realiable feedback comes from a partner, wife or other person who can see us in 3D and real time.

[Marleena]

Bree I have to agree with the others here about the picture gallery. We'll get mostly nice comments if we get any at all, sometimes only the pretty younger girls, or photoshop pros get comments.

If you ask for honest opinions about your pictures they will also be toned down. I have had some constructive comments on things I missed, so it can help. I can also look back at older pictures to see improvements of my own. I cannot say anything bad to anybody about their looks. Perhaps ask one of the GG's on here that you trust for constructive criticism. The best bet would be a GG friend in the real world that you have that accepts your Cding. I have one online GG friend (not here) that has helped me.

[Cheryl T]

I get my criticism from my wife.
On top of that I get it from my sisters in my Tri-Ess group. Most of the time this criticism is unsolicited so it's quite honest.

There are times when strangers provide it as well. We had a guest speaker at our meeting one night. A Dr (MTF-TS) who counsels in our community. She was in a group talking about some issues and I was listening in. She then turned to me and asked who did my makeup. I told her that I did and she told me I did a very nice job. That was a big ego boost for me.

Unfortunately, here in the forum I think many of us would be hard pressed to give a truly honest evaluation as we don't really want to hurt someone's feelings. We are all a bit "delicate" on this issue and we certainly don't want to crush someone who's situation we can certainly understand. Also, it's difficult to do so from a picture. The lighting is different, the size of the image makes it difficult and other factors affect how we view the image.
Tips and suggestions on your outfits, hairstyles and such are one thing, but to critique someone from an image here is very difficult to do and balance true constructive criticism with the desire to not hurt someone's feelings.

[Nikki A.]

I don't really look at pictures as a reliable critique in that lighting & angles can skew how you really look. I like being assessed in person, the problem is that most people don't want to be critical. Either I'm decent in make up and clothing or my friends are liars lol. I have been told by a few women that I really do well with makeup, but I find I do have to push sometimes for what I can do better,

[Marleena]

Bree I just posted a timeline of pictures based on this thread. We'll see how it goes.

[Kate Simmons]

One additional thought in regard to makeup. The real art with makeup is to utilize it in such a way as to make it appear you are using little to none. It sounds difficult but it can be done. Once we realize what the "nuts and bolts" requirements are to pass, it more or less becomes second nature. I have seen many of my sisters progress in that very respect. Remember, it's mostly about who we are, not so much what we look like although that is a "nice to have" Bree. Enjoy the adventure Hon.

[Chickhe]

You will never get perfect feedback. If you want to feel good, throw away all but the positive comments. If you want to feel bad, read only the negative ones... If you want to be objective, throw away all the emotional comments and focus on the specific points that you can change. The thing is, a lot of the times you already know what works and what doesn't, but what I've done that really works is to take my own picture and hide it for a week so the emotional filters are off, then I critique it and decide what I need to change. If you want makeup advice, check out one of the sites like makeuptalk and I'm sure there are fashion groups too to figure out your clothing style.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Yes, if you want honest but polite feedback, you'll have to ask for it.

If I was going to say anything, it would be about your shiny face in some pictures...if it's not the flash, you might need an oil control mattifying foundation with slightly more coverage. I'm also not a fan of candy pink lipstick on you, preferring you in a rose...but that's just a personal preference because I think the pink doesn't work as well with your brunette hair. And sure, you could always thin the brows out even more, but you probably don't want to do that. That's pretty much all the critique I can give you. Otherwise, great style and taste.

But "you" really don't need critiquing, look what you did on your own in those now and then collages. You learned the skills.

Veronica

[stephi]

wow how do you get cleavage on flickr pics looks fab!!!
Luv S
oxox

[Bree Wagner]

Tons of great stuff here, thanks everyone. I've especially enjoyed any mentions about how you have looked for the great feedback you've received.

On to the replies...

Having somebody who actually cares enough to say "hell no" is the greatest gift that any of us can have. Find these people and listen to them, they will help you get to where you need to be.

Couldn't agree with you more here. It's finding those people that's the challenge and something I certainly hope to do now as I venture out and meet folks as Bree.

It's very difficult to tell much of anything with a photograph. Best people to advise about makeup are professionals who are actually eyeballing you at a makeup counter, or something similar

A lot of you hit on this and without a doubt it's true. You can get some things from pictures, but the whole package really needs to be seen live.

Good point about the makeup counter. That's a place I've mostly feared to tread. I'll have to get over it.

Somebody else will have to take The Job of "kicking puppies." Usually, we're not very good at it.

Hehe. The people who can 'kick puppies' and yet still somehow make the puppies feel good about what they just received are the gems we need to find. It's not about just saying "Here's what you did wrong" but saying "Here's what you did wrong AND here's how to do better next time"

I see you are on Flickr so if you want an honest no holes barred, but not rude, of your look just ask.

Cheers from sunny (no it is today, but a bit cold) Scotland

I'll always take that kind of opinion. It's what I'd like to get in most cases since without other knowledge I always assume opinions others give me are meant to help, not to hurt. Also, my feelings don't bruise easily. That's something my wife and I still have issues with when she's trying not to 'hurt my feelings' but all I want is honesty.

Scotland, huh? I'm really hoping to visit there late this year

One additional thought in regard to makeup. The real art with makeup is to utilize it in such a way as to make it appear you are using little to none.

I agree and I'm trying! But with the wonderful beard I'm blessed with it can be hard.

Yes, if you want honest but polite feedback, you'll have to ask for it.
I'm also not a fan of candy pink lipstick on you

Yes, please. Although I always thought pink looked good, I'll have to experiment!

[paulinescotlandcd]

Well if you come to Scotland and I am about I am cheap. For a latte I will give you a face to face meeting, bring your wife and she can take notes, about the quality of your pictures. P.S. I am in Glasgow, don't tell me you are booked in to see that boring castle in Edinburgh? Another thing, Edinburgh is being badly dug up at the moment (new trams) so what poor shops they have are even poorer at the moment so jump on a train and pop through to Glasgow (only 40mins), much nicer people in Glasgow and much better shopping

[Marleena]

@ Bree Your pictures have gotten nice comments from what I've seen so that's a plus. Still the best way is a real life friend and your wife for the best feedback. I know I have a heck of a time getting any real good pictures. Photography ain't my bag..lol.