what gives?

[AllieSF]

Hi Dianne,

Welcome to the Forum. I personally was not bashing Kitty and I respect her opinions and those of others. I was disagreeing with her. These type of threads pop up here all the time and get all types of comments, which are mostly repeats by what the posters have written before. What that lady was thinking and doing, and all the Why's and What's are not known by anyone here because no one here talked to here. It is all conjecture. It is her life and if she wants help, I think, being an adult, she knows how to ask for it. Maybe she was very happy to be out presenting exactly like she did. If I read between the lines of your post, like others who are negative on how that lady was presenting herself, I would say that you are criticizing her too, directly or indirectly. She probably does not need anyone's help. She is being she. You are criticizing her just because she does not conform to your line of thinking and that of many others here. Well, as you have probably already noticed, all of us who crossdress fall way outside the norms of most of society. Do you want to be criticized for dressing in the opposite gender's clothes? I don't, and therefore, I duly respect and fight for others Rights to dress and present as they like, whether or not it meets my personal idea of what is presentable. I try very hard to be respectful of everyone, even those that I disagree with, and I think that I am mostly doing that. I only request that everyone look at their own written opinions as an open minded third party might, and maybe they will see that sometimes their own "supporting" comments fall far short of doing that.

It seems more like acceptance if you meet their rules, not unconditional acceptance. When people can accept others for who they are and look past the "looks", then you will see the big changes for tolerance and acceptance that we all, at least I think it is all, strive for.

[StarrOfDelite]

To the OP: "Lighten up, Francis." as was said by Sgt. Hulka, Stripes.

[Sara Jessica]

Urrr, I am one of the transitioning, and the major difference between what I do full-time, noted above (e.g., I wear white after Labor Day), compared to what my wife does, is that she is less likely to go braless.

Excuse?? What, are we back to needing notes from our parents, "Please excuse Johnny-Jane for having wrinkled clothes today; we ran out of time because the toilet backed up." ??

You don't have to excuse what you choose to wear, and what I choose to wear is a fact not a matter to which excuses apply. If I wear a cross between a Kardasian and Johnny Rotton, then get over it.

Don't worry, I'm not the least bit concerned about what you choose to wear, just as you have no concern for the fact that I would be an ally for your cause were it not for the fact that you clearly march to your own drum and apparently don't have any desire for allies. I'm glad you are full time, I'm thrilled that you don't care what anyone else thinks but ya know what? I have enough full-timers as both dear friends and acquaintances who have a rough go at it each and ever day and yet have no choice but to soldier on as best they can. Those are the people I am proud to champion for as best as I am able.

This is the THIRD time I have said it, this position is not an easy one to take but I have stated my case and based on my own personal experiences, I will not waver. If voicing such principles is grounds for overly simplistic generalizations about what my (apparently minority) opinion is, then so be it.

I'm actually surprised at all the posts excusing the CDer and bashing Kitty.

Yes, each person should be allowed to wear what they want. And yet...

Each individual really does reflect on other individuals who are part of their group.

Many of us have said something like "doesn't speak for me", but in reality, typical people "hear" (see) the bad behaviour of the CDer and what they hear, to them, *does* speak for us.

I'd feel pity for the CDer, and I hope, had one of us been there to see it, might have taken pity and gently stepped in to smooth the situation out somehow.

How could someone have done that? What would they say, to whom, what else could you do to help people get along together?

We are part of a minority group. When one is a minority, then individual actions do in fact reflect on the group as far as the majority is concerned. This is why individualism, modes of expression and/or presentation, etc. when perpetrated by members of a group which is in the majority are seen as simply that...expression, not necessarily a reflection on the group as a whole. Yet when a minority grouped individual goes against the grain, all bets are off.

Excuse me for having respect, for associating with people who share such respect, and for encouraging such respect from others who may take fateful steps into the real world. I will not encourage behavior or presentation described by Kitty by adopting a "you go girl" mentality or saying, "hey, he's doing the best he can". Fact of the matter is that he isn't and if one is halfway paying attention to the world around them, they can take steps to make a respectful presentation.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Kitty,

I agree with you.

You asked if being a woman was a joke for some. No I wouldn't say a joke but a sexual fetish, a hobby and a compulsion for men.

Many ask why transitioned TS and IS women disappear after transition instead of staying in a group of men that never represented their needs, wants or concerns.
This is just a small example of why we move forward within the context of the public arena of Work, home and leisure life.


Julia

[Kaz]

Woah! Big thread... I am just thinking of little old me wanting to pass and get away with it... go about my business without hassle...

And then there is my fear of what the greater public think and how they judge 'pervs'

And the girl does good and the girl does fine, but underneath she knows that society thinks she is a 'perv'...
So she take a lot of trouble and works out how to do it, but underneath she knows she is still just a 'perve'...
So she builds on her fears and she builds on her time, all the way making sure she is the diamond... at least in her eyes...

She captures attention, she's getting support, she feels she is capable of so much more...
She's making improvements, making this her own, following a movement... no longer feeling alone,
And all of this excitement builds inside her, she has got a fatal decider... coming up...

Am I TS, TG, CD, AP, BG, DS, KJ, Could I just be pretending to be a CD? Jeez I thought I was!

Sorry... I felt a song coming on...

Chords are what you want... it works several ways, the outro is to play the pretending bit ironically!

Sorry... just my wierd sense of humour...

[docrobbysherry]

I was at the verizon wireless store in my city and there was an obvious dude in a dress. Not only was he dressed inappropriately but he was wearing the most god aweful makeup, heavy hooker, over exaggerated makeup. He wore a blonde wig and kept flipping his hair while talking to the very accomodating verizon rep. All the while wasting everyone's time saying that he was saving up for the phone he wanted. Really?? Is this how cd's want to represent themselves? I felt sad and embarssed for him. Is being a women just a joke for some? Why do some want to make such a mockery of being a women? That is not how any women I know represents themselves. So tell me what gives?

Kitty, do u realize that unless u, or anyone here, passes PERFECTLY when they go out, the average Muggle mite think EXACTLY THE SAME THING ABOUT ANY OF US that u thot about that CD?

Why? What did he/she do to u?

I agree with u entirely, Allie! I COULD have been that CD!

[Babette]

I'm with Kitty on this one. If it were me in that Verizon store instead of her, I would have felt the same way. Yes I do recognize everyone's right to choose their own style. Go for it if looking that way makes you feel good about yourself! That doesn't mean I have to feel good about it too.

For the record, I have been around situations that were very similar to Kitty's experience. They didn't always involve a MTF CD either. People from all walks of life do some really weird things. I typically mind my own business and never say anything to them. In my mind however, I am screaming OMG!!!!!

Babette

[BRANDYJ]

My Two cents. What Kitty saw was a guy that was dressed in a manor that she felt was in poor taste for where she saw this person. I have to agree with her. Face facts, we all have what we feel is good taste/poor taste in what we wear be it a guy, a woman, a CD or TS. I don't call it judging as much as it is seeing someone dressed in a manor that just looks horrible tasteless or whatever adjective you want to put on it. If i was there with Kitty and saw this person, I would not have said a word to embarrass or insult him. But I'd be shaking my head and laughing to myself, in disgust for such a spectacle he made of himself. we all judge others. To say we don't is kidding ourselves. I feel the same way when I see these guys with waists down around their knees in pants of jeans that look 5 times to big. Gee, am I judging simply because that look to me is disgusting, dumb, stupid and ugly? No, I'm not. What I am doing is expressing my personal likes and dislikes in what I see. But if you dress like that or the guy Kitty saw, we most likely will not become friends. But sure, you are free to dress any way you want to. Go ahead. Just don't expect all of us to like what we see. If I dressed as stylish as I can, do my best to look like a well dressed woman on the street, I'm not gonna pass. So I accept the fact that the majority of people are going to react badly toward me and not like what they see. I don't see that as judging me. I see it as them not liking the image I present because it is not common for a man to be seen in a dress, heels and makeup. I support their right to not like it. After all, they are human just like me.

[Eryn]

The important lesson is to not ask questions at the Verizon store while other people are waiting. They will not think well of you.

[Kate T]

I think this one has been almost covered though I would also add the following. By definition you are not seeing the CD's who do "blend in". Consequently it will ALWAYS seem that the over characterised CD is the "norm" because they are the only ones that your brain samples.

I can understand your feelings Kitty, and I think if this person was presenting this way in order to mock women then yes I would say that you do have cause to be offended. However as others have already said, have you seriously considered that this person may, at this stage, be unable to present in a better manner? What if that was their first venture out (admittedly not likely given the social interaction you describe), maybe they do not have a friend / SO to assist them with makeup and clothes selection. Or maybe they have a behavioural problem and are seeking attention in a socially inappropriate manner. These reasons would make me concerned for the persons welfare more so than worried they are giving CD's a "bad name".

I also think we do have a "choice" in how we feel. Yes there is no doubt that genetic and socially ingrained prejudices will often be our "gut" response however we are humans, not animals. We have the ability to reason and feel beyond those "gut" instincts and become better people.

[KarenNY]

I was at the verizon wireless store in my city and there was an obvious dude in a dress. Not only was he dressed inappropriately but he was wearing the most god aweful makeup, heavy hooker, over exaggerated makeup. He wore a blonde wig and kept flipping his hair while talking to the very accomodating verizon rep. All the while wasting everyone's time saying that he was saving up for the phone he wanted. Really?? Is this how cd's want to represent themselves? I felt sad and embarssed for him. Is being a women just a joke for some? Why do some want to make such a mockery of being a women? That is not how any women I know represents themselves. So tell me what gives?

Kitty, I completely commiserate.... for me, presenting myself as a woman -- as passable as possible, anyway -- is an honor that I always took seriously... probably it was drummed into me by my mother -- she was very accepting and supportive, but I darn well had to make sure I dressed appropriately and acted like I belonged in the clothes! She always told me not to treat being a girl like some kind of dress-up game... if I wanted to dress en femme, then I needed to put my best high-heeled foot forward and look and act like a "proper young lady", not a tramp... so I have never wanted to do a half-rear-ended job on my presentation or emulation of femininity... that guy in drag doesn't speak for me as a CDer...

[CloserthanthisGG]

I have seen many women like this, actually. Super fake, super heavy makeup, skirts barely covering their parts. Loud, oblivious to the rest of the world. They are more common here in Houston than in my home town, which was full of pretty down to earth folk. But little daddy's girls who have been protected and have felt entitled their whole lives, and never taught to have any sort of respect for anyone else, who live in a cloud where they think of nothing but themselves... Oh yeah, there are lots of real women like this. Or also, someone who grew up poor and envied the sort of life that those little girls with ponies and new porsches had, and wands to project the image that they are one of those types for some reason, because they envy it so much. Not saying that's not messed up, but it happens to people of both genders. They're not my friends, they're not yours, but they are out there. I've also met men like that. They had self image issues, severe ones. This person probably had no idea how they were really presenting themselves. And probably too, would have been very self righteous and defensive if anyone had said anything. I don't think anyone really wants to have an annoying personality, so I think that most of the time, they're probably unaware that they're being annoying and give them the benefit of the doubt, unless, like in this case, they were wasting my time. Or like the time that I was in line at a fast food place and the line was really long and some really annoying, self-important young teenaged girls walked right past the line and went right to the front and ordered. Everyone let them. I was outraged. They shoved their way through and didn't even say "excuse me" or anything. And I do mean "shoved". With their short skirts and long hair flipping the whole way. The only reason I didn't stop them was because there seemed to be some sort of emergency, they were angry looking (there's another, more impolite word than angry, but I'll be nice), (overly made-up, too). But there was no emergency. Just rudeness. They just had silently shouted to everyone else in line that no one else here was as important as they were. And didn't care. Only the women even noticed. The men were too busy looking at their behinds. And when they got to the front, the guy just took their order as if he hadn't noticed what just happened. Smiling the whole time, because when they got to the counter, they flipped their hair even more. And became little mewling kittens in persona because that's how a cute little daddy's girl always gets what she wants. Experience has trained them so.

And in certain circles, experience may have even trained our rude person here at the Verizon store too...

Sorry for the vent. I don't know if I've ever had a chance to vent about that experience, but I just wanted to demonstrate the type of girl that this man may have been trying to emulate perhaps without realizing it.

[YorkshireRose]

I am on my way to a fund raising event for Cancer Research and you know what? We all have to go dressed up in drag! I am really uncomfortable about this as I never normally wear womens' clothes or wear make up, plus I am a single guy so I don't have an SO to ask for advice.

Ok well I left it to the last minute and bought some cheap clothes from a charity store and bought some cheap make up......What a day! My phone has packed in and and I am now running late. Quick shower and I throw on my outfit. It looks kinda skanky, but hey! If it helps me raise much needed money for cancer research then I can live with that..Ok ok ok..thats the make up troweled on. OK quick stop at the Verzion store then to the event......

[kimdl93]

I doubt that the individual intended to make a mockery of women. There are a couple of things to consider. One, this individual probably didn't have a lot of practice with make-up and has a very limited wardrobe. And like many of us, she probably had some very strongly ingrained but slightly off-target notions about what was feminine and attractive. So she may have chosen clothes that she felt looked good on other women, but to an objective observer, simply didn't work for her. And sometimes, we don't see ourselves accurately. It can work both ways - sometimes I hate the way I look...and other times, I maybe be too generous in my self appraisal.

[Julogden]

I have seen GGs on this site take great offense to posts from CDers who complain about women going out in public with chipped nail polish or looking less than feminine. I think we should afford the CDers the same courtesy we ask of them, and not post complaints about the way they choose to dress in public.

Thank you, Mimi, you've summed it up quite nicely.

I personally was not bashing Kitty and I respect her opinions and those of others. I was disagreeing with her.

Allie brings up an important point: disagreeing with someone, including our GG members, is not bashing. Anyone posting their opinion, including our GG members, should be prepared for responses expressing opinions that disagree with theirs.

Carol