Which one of us is the cross dresser?

[LeaP]

I've rarely seen women who were truly crossdressed. (though if completely passable I may not have noticed, of course). I've seen plenty of women dressed in an androgynous manner and less often those dressed in an overtly masculine manner - but they still didn't come off as crossdressed. The intention to BE male just isn't there. A masculine woman is not the same as a crossdressed woman.

I prefer to view changes in acceptance patterns of certain clothing types in terms of convergence, or universality, rather than the adoption of men's clothing by women. To focus on the menswear perspective is to ignore changes that have taken place in men's clothing which would have been completely unacceptable in the past.

[Foxglove]

The intention to BE male just isn't there. A masculine woman is not the same as a crossdressed woman.

I think this is a good point. Back in the days when women were abandoning dresses and skirts and putting on pants, were they crossdressing? Did they have any intention of being male? I don't think so. They were wearing what suited them better and starting a new and lasting trend.

And yet--there's a woman I see about town fairly often who dresses exactly like a man. You have to look twice at her before you're sure she's a woman. Plaid shirt, jeans, work boots. She dresses exactly like a working man. Is she trying to be masculine or is she just wearing what's appropriate to her job? (I think she's a farmer, but I'm not sure about that.) But every time I see her, I get the feeling I'm looking at a crossdressing woman. That's how she comes across. So is intent always a factor when you're determining whether someone's crossdressed or not?

Annabelle

[ReineD]

I don't see the attire you describe as either being feminine or masculine. You're just describing what seems to be a universal style of dress. The gender gap is closing in terms of jobs and gender roles, and this is being reflected in the clothing. This is no fun for crossdressers, but it is what it is.

Have a look at these pics of high school students. Other than minor variations in some of the students, they're all dressed pretty much the same. There is no more "masculine" or "feminine" look, unless the guys wear the traditional shirts & ties and the girls wear skirts. We're in a new clothing style era now, and to say that women crossdress is ridiculous. Are the guys crossdressing when they drop their shirts and ties and wear the same blue jeans, sneakers, and Tshirts that the women wear?

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2007/02/15/dscn0058.jpg
http://weplaydifferent.files.wordpre...ws_full_16.jpg
http://myai.org/wp-content/uploads/2...-students.jpeg

As to underwear, they are designed to accomodate certain body parts, that's all. If you don't have breasts and you wear a bra, then you are crossdressing.

[MandyGG]

This is so tired.

I can wear a concert t-shirt or a t-shirt to support my kids school, that are sold to both men and women. Why? Because they are SOLD TO BOTH. The dudes next to me wearing the same shirt are not crossdressed for the same reason. They are sold to both. Therefore, unisex.

I am not presenting as a man. My jeans have sparkles and bling on the butt pockets, are cut for my body shape and size, and are bought in the womens department. Who cares if women can wear pants! I didn't earn the right to be able to, but I sure as hell enjoy the fact that I can!

The difference is, if a dress were intentionally designed for men, made for a man's body, and sold in the men's department, this would be a non-issue. The fact is, YOU want to appear FEMALE. You spend a few hours "trying" to make it happen, whether you actually succeed is a whole other story. I could care less to appear MALE.

If it were just wearing a dress, that would be one thing. You are not "just wearing a dress".

Put this tired debate to rest. It will get everyone frustrated and worked up over something that we have no control over.

If you want to wear a dress. Do it. But, it better be presented as a man in a dress without wigs, forms, shaving, etc.... or your fight is worthless. To be able to have men wear dresses, you have to show FOR CERTAIN that it is men just wanting a dress to be uncomfortable (you and I both know those damn things are not made for comfort.) Otherwise, you are just another crossdresser b*tching about things being unfair. You know what's unfair... the fact that this is even a damn issue. God forbid letting women be women!

[Beverley Sims]

For us androgony is the best route for coming out...IMHO.

[Marie-Elise]

I see the observation, and I see the "double standard", if you will. But, what people are failing to take into consideration is that our "boy like" shorts, are cut FOR a woman's figure. If we were to go to the men's department to get said shorts, they would make a large gap around our waist. Yes, I have worn men's t-shirts, but mostly I buy t-shirts that are cut for women. They are shorter in the torso, have a more form fitting shape, and smaller sleeves. So, really it isn't "Crossdressing" if the clothes are MADE for a woman.

Interesting. My cousin was a professional athlete and, as a result, had larger than normal thighs due to sprinting. He always shopped for and wore women's jeans. I don't believe he is a crossdresser but he had no problem shopping in the women's department at any store.

Myself, I think the fact that the clothing was made for a woman in no small way part of the attraction for me.

[MandyGG]

Was he wearing them because they were the best fit, or did he want to appear female? Right there is the difference!

[Marie-Elise]

God forbid letting women be women!

Not quite sure what that means. We should let women be women?

[MandyGG]

It means stop comparing the two. Leave what we can't control alone. Let us be us without adding commentary about how we choose to live it. Basically, stop the GG bashing because we don't do things the way that you feel we should.

[ReineD]

Once it wasn't acceptable for women to smoke, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to wear pants, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to have a career, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to join the armed forces (other than support roles), they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to vote, they changed that..
Once it wasn't acceptable for women to....

So I ask you, when do we get to dictate some changes, when do the GG's repay us for accepting their basic rights and allow (and accept) us ours as we did theirs?!

I'm sorry, but this has got to be the most sexist comment I've read here in a long time. Your premise is, the pecking order among the genders with women having fewer rights was natural. This is utter nonsense. Women rightfully were tired of being second class citizens and if the gender situation had been reversed, men would have fought for their rights to vote and and work too. Now everything is equal as it should be.

If you want to dress like a contemporary woman, join the 21st century and just dress like the guys do in the high school pics that I posted, since women dress the same way!


Oh, and BTW, it is no longer acceptable for anyone to smoke.

[BRANDYJ]

As happens often, ReineD said what I was trying to say, but said it better. That's because she has to WO in front of MAN = WOMAN

[Lorileah]

When men decide that they want to wear something and in their own minds decide that it isn't somehow draining their virility, then they can wear anything that comes off the rack. It isn't the women who are telling most men what to wear. Trust me if tomorrow men's clothing designers convinced men that wearing pink lace panties made you hit a ball further or got you laid more, they would flock to the lingerie department.

FDR said "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" That is still true. The mind set of "this is mine and that is yours" is all made up. The real reason women wear what they want to wear is THEY want to and they don't give a rat's butt if you like it or not.

[Alice Torn]

Just my opinion, but i think we have been in a new ark age fashion wise, since the 1970's. The age of lack of common sense, the age of stupidity, the age of selfishness. I also do not believe that ALL men oppressed women, before thr feminist(actually the femmasculinist movement started.) Listen to some of the old love songs from the 1800's. Stephen Foster's and Civil War love songs! There is a HUGE STEREOTYPING of men here! I do not believe there was nearly as much oppression of women back then, as the feminazis would brainwash us into accepting totally. Sure there was some, but men had to work 14 hour days in sweat shops, or on the farm, too, without modern tractors. There is a thing called rebellion, without a good reason or cause, too. Equal rights cannot be, without equal responsibility. Men should have the same rights to wear women's clothes, and claim harrassment, if they are harrassed. Law and justice knows no color, or sex or gender. Good day.

[Girliegirl]

I know its called crossdressing, but leave the clothes out of it for a minute and call itwhat it is. For me its about being feminine and escaping the masculine world for a while. Women dont have to escape by changing clothes. being masculine is about holding your own in competition, strength, work, mechanical knowledge, etc...... For a woman to take that role is as easy as going fishing, joining a sport, becoming a mechanic, my point is that its about actions. Men who enjoy feminine things are doing it to tap into the feminine world. Biking won't do that, laundry won't do that, fishing, cooking, cleaning, boating.... Not even shopping does that. GGs, next time you go shopping only look in the mens department... Its as boring as grocery shopping. Looking for cute outfits and imagining how colors will look and feel on, coordinating everything, makeup, etc.... Thats the fun part of shopping. And on a side note. Women do crossdress. Everyone here knows women strive for the ideological feminine look. Breast implants on women are as unnatural as a man wearing breast forms. Its the feeling. I bet no one here knows of a man getting pec implants.

[chrissietoo]

C'mon, a woman who crossdresses is wearing masculine clothes(NOT unisex), binding her breasts, and stuffing a packer in her pants. I know this because I happen to know (and adore) a woman who crossdresses.

It's ridiculous to say a woman in pants is crossdressing, unless you're talking about those rebel broads in the 18th century.

It's always been curious to me that there are plenty of hetero males who dress as females, but most of the women who dress as males are hetero. I wonder if this is because women have more freedom in dressing anyway?

[Lorileah]

It's always been curious to me that there are plenty of hetero males who dress as females, but most of the women who dress as males are hetero. I wonder if this is because women have more freedom in dressing anyway?

Did you miss a word here? I am having trouble figuring that out. If you are implying that FtM crossdressers are NOT usually hetero, I think you may be missing the boat. I think it was Melissa who actually explained that FtM crossdressers do facial hair and prosthetics not just the clothes. Are you saying you don't see many FtM Crossdressers because they blend in (because women wear male clothing)?

As I said women have more "freedom" as you call it because they don't care what most people say. When people as a group decide to do something like wear a certain type of clothing (like leg warmers...who thought that was sexy? ), then it becomes common place and no one cares. 60 years ago they didn't have that freedom but then designers and women decided that they didn't have to fit a cookie cutter mold. 200 years ago men had the same latitude. Wigs, make up , even dresses were in the realm of males. Men just gave it up for whatever reason (peer pressure probably).

[MandyGG]

Women do crossdress. Everyone here knows women strive for the ideological feminine look. Breast implants on women are as unnatural as a man wearing breast forms. Its the feeling. I bet no one here knows of a man getting pec implants.

Here is ONE of the many websites when Pec Implants is Googled. There are also Calf, Deltoid, Bicep, and Tricep....and even penile.

http://www.bodyimplants.com/

[Girliegirl]

But I can name 20 real world women in my life with implants and I couldnt name 1 man with pec iplants. Lip stick is the same thing though. Mascara, nail polish, wonder bras, padded bras..... They are designed to acheive the same ultimatly unnatural feminine appearance. no one, not man nor woman looks at a nat geo documentary with aboriginal woman and says thats the looki want but women and some men see 50 revlon commercials aday with gorgeously shiny plump red lips, and they want it.

[Marleena]

As to underwear, they are designed to accomodate certain body parts, that's all. If you don't have breasts and you wear a bra, then you are crossdressing.

Hmm.. so I have man boobs, now if I wear a bra I'm not crossdressing? Cool..

[MandyGG]

But I can name 20 real world women in my life with implants and I couldnt name 1 man with pec iplants. Lip stick is the same thing though. Mascara, nail polish, wonder bras, padded bras..... They are designed to acheive the same ultimatly unnatural feminine appearance. no one, not man nor woman looks at a nat geo documentary with aboriginal woman and says thats the looki want but women and some men see 50 revlon commercials aday with gorgeously shiny plump red lips, and they want it.

A woman wearing the trend, which is what society says to be attractive to the opposite sex, like lipstick and breast implants.... are crossdressers? A woman wanting to present as a woman.... is a crossdresser? Does this really make any sense.... even to you? I think that is a bit of a stretch. ok, ok, ok.... a LOT of a stretch.


Edited to add:
I have a DD chest. I have since my teens. I didn't ask for it, but I got it. So, because I am large chested (without implants) I look unnatural? What if I were to be diagnosed with Breast Cancer, and I came to the decision that I had to have my DD's back after successful treatments and bi-lateral mastectomy? Would I then be a crossdresser because I had to have implants to get my original form back?

[Girliegirl]

Did you miss a word here? I am having trouble figuring that out. If you are implying that FtM crossdressers are NOT usually hetero, I think you may be missing the boat. I think it was Melissa who actually explained that FtM crossdressers do facial hair and prosthetics not just the clothes. Are you saying you don't see many FtM Crossdressers because they blend in (because women wear male clothing)?

As I said women have more "freedom" as you call it because they don't care what most people say. When people as a group decide to do something like wear a certain type of clothing (like leg warmers...who thought that was sexy? ), then it becomes common place and no one cares. 60 years ago they didn't have that freedom but then designers and women decided that they didn't have to fit a cookie cutter mold. 200 years ago men had the same latitude. Wigs, make up , even dresses were in the realm of males. Men just gave it up for whatever reason (peer pressure probably).

it would be interesting to find out how similar the number of female to male cders there are compared to male to female ts's there are. Because I believe gender dysphoria is dofferent then m2f crossdressing. I have no desire to be our look fem all day everyday.

[Girliegirl]

I'm sorry, that's not the way I meant it at all. I'm saying that some women go aftersomething they are not, the same thing applies to cders. Thats all I meant by it and I dosnt mean to offend anyone. Sometimes I speak overly metaphorically.

[MandyGG]

I have no desire to be our look fem all day everyday.

Yet, your screen name is "GirlieGirl"..... that makes me giggle.

I know that you are not meaning to be offensive, nor am I meaning to sound harsh. I think in public settings like forums it is easily misread a certain way. I do believe that your metaphors are a bit off though.

[LeaP]

I'm sorry, that's not the way I meant it at all. I'm saying that some women go aftersomething they are not, the same thing applies to cders. Thats all I meant by it and I dosnt mean to offend anyone. Sometimes I speak overly metaphorically.

I'm not buying it. Adornment and body modification appear to be a natural human activity, as it is found in all cultures and has existed for all time. Moreover, in the case of cosmetics, it's a matter of enhancing something one already has, not creating what they do not. Lipstick, by the way, at least in any normal shade, mimics and exaggerates the skin flush associated with arousal in women. I.e., it's not quite what you think!

[Girliegirl]

Well I meant it in the sense that my wife and I can chose decor in our home, flowers for our flower beds, and meals we both like. We also happen to be able to choose clothes we also like. I guess the point I was trying to make was that men and woman are both human. The style of clothes and personal freedoms included.