Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
And how are people (the general public) supposed to know this...do you carry a BIG sign around with you every day with the words, "I'm neither male or female, please do not address me as Sir"... Do you do this?
Just my 2 cents, but I believe the OP is a prime example of the Pink Fog syndrome.
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This is basically what my mother told me one time. I was a young lad and we were at a petrol station. When the lad was finished dealing with us, he said to me, "Thank you, sir!" As I got back in the car, I was grumbling about how I didn't like being called "Sir". Then my mother's remark.
I eventually figured out why I didn't like being called "Sir". The usual self-esteem problems. The lad was showing me respect that I felt I didn't deserve. I used to be a fairly hard character to get along with. (Of course I'm all sugar and spice now.)
Best wishes, Annabelle
I can see this being a frustrating thing for someone that may identify somewhere else on the gender spectrum. I am more aware of it now that I date someone who is TG, but I really was not aware of it before.
My family always raised me to say "Sir" or "Ma'am." It really doesn't matter what age you are either...I say "ma'am" to anyone that is in a "higher position" to me. I have a professor from Wisconsin and whenever I am in her office, I drop a lot of "Yes, Ma'ams." She will occasionally say, "You really don't have to call me m'am...I'm only in my 40s." And, every time I tell her that it's a really bad habit, but it really is just a sign of respect in Alabama. She understand this, but she will still smile as I kick myself when I call her "ma'am."
I mean, I would get in a LOT of trouble as a young kid for saying "yeah" or "yep" to someone that is in a higher position than me. (Be it someone you are working for, some random person that is slightly older than you on the street...basically, anyone that is an adult). You always said "Yes, Ma'am" or "Yes, Sir." For example, I am in my 20s...but, I expect my 12yo cousin to call me ma'am.
I had a professor that did not want me to address her by "doctor" or "professor"...she wanted me to address her by her first name. I just really could NOT do that, and she would always tell me that it was okay to just call her by her first name when I would address her as "Doctor So-and-So." I finally just had to tell her that I was probably never going to be able to call her by her fist name without feeling really awkward. She also was not from the South.
So, I suppose just try to understand that we are being polite. It's probably how the person was raised. I was also raised to stop whatever I am doing and hold a door open for a very elderly (like having a hard time walking), anyone that has some sort of walking device, and any woman that is very pregnant. Also, if there is a person that is much older than you or a woman that is pregnant that needs a place to sit...you get the Hell up out of your seat and offer your chair. If they don't take the chair, you continue to stand...you don't shrug and sit back down. I was also raised that men should hold doors open for ladies (like, in front of stores and stuff) and offer them their chairs if there are no others. But, apparently, some mamas aren't raising their sons right. I was walking through a door and a parade of men just continued to walk through without offering my friend and I to go ahead through. My friend is from Mississippi (born and raised) and I from Alabama (born and raised)...so, this was just very rude. As the last guy went through, I finally said, "By all means, let me continue to hold this door open for the rest of the herd." They gave us an embarrassed look. I think I am more Southern than I think I am sometimes, because I got called the "typical Southern Belle" while Ryan and I were in Mexico talking to people also from Wisconsin. (Lol...a lot of people from Wisconsin that I meet, apparently). I wasn't really sure what that meant.
So, my point is that I wouldn't stress it. I would never say "sir" to a person that is CD completely as a woman, or appeared to be trying to pass as female. I don't expect many other people would either. But, if you honestly look like a sir and there is really no way for me to know how you feel on the *inside*...I'll probably "sir" you. If you tell me not to "sir" you, I probably will be biting my tongue not to say it. Just because I still see it as pretty disrespectful when out and about. But, if you said something like, "Please don't call me 'sir'...it makes me feel a little too manly," I'd be very aware not to call you that. But, I will probably start calling you ma'am, instead. lol
Also, "sugar" and "honey" is seen as disrespectful unless you know that person very well or on the same "level." I might "sugar" and "honey" my friends and people of my own age. But, I would NEVER say that to someone that I did not know well. Many SAs do it to me when I am out and about, and I see it as okay because we are about the same age. But, I have also seen some girls do it to the very elderly...my mama would have popped me.
Last edited by Shananigans; 06-11-2012 at 02:01 PM.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
Well, down here in the South (West Texas) we still open doors for ladies, and call them Ma'am - regardless of their age. I think it tickled some of the young girls I've done this for, when they're young enough to be my granddaughters - but that's the norm here. And with that, guys are called "Sir" (unless you have done something to warrant a less deserving title) out of respect.
I realize the rest of the country/world might not be like this, but in some places the old graces are still alive and well. Of course, if you were here and looked feminine, you'd be called "Ma'am" - would that be better, or worse?
Also, I'd thought I'd add that if you had told me you considered yourself the "third gender" 2.5 years ago, I would have stared at you like you were crazier than a sh*t house rat. At the time, I had some conceptualization of transsexuals and crossdressers...but, I wasn't really as aware as I am now. So, 2.5 years ago, I just thought there were TSs that were born as boys, but really were girls on the inside. (And, vice versa). I honestly saw CDing as a mainly sexual thing...but, then I learned about the "transgendered umbrella." And, now, I know there are people that feel like they have no gender at all...then, there are people that feel like they are a blend of both genders...then, there are people that feel they are something else entirely. It honestly still gets pretty confusing to me/makes my head hurt a little bit, but I have found that just being sensitive/understanding is the best way to approach things when you aren't really sure what is going on with someone internally.
So, I feel like even now I am here and I am STILL trying to learn/understand gender issues of different people. I'm still kind of confused and I think I have been here for like 2 years. In my daily life, I feel that I am more aware...but, I also try to just do my thing and try my best not to offend anyone. But, I would probably go crazy if I tried to be completely politically correct all of the time and cater to everyone's different internal issues. My method is to try to be polite and then work from there. It sucks to say it, but I just try to be polite and get my work done (especially when I was in sales)...I'd never get sh*t done if I heard everyone's personal history or had to worry about everyone that could in some way be possibly offended by something that came out of my mouth that I had no intentions of being offensive. I remember a woman getting bent out of shape when I offered to show her jeans in a "relaxed" fit. Yes, she was a bit on the bigger side...but, I was really just trying to find jeans that fit her. Yet, she took it that I was insinuating that she was fat. Lord, help me...I've never been dog cussed like that in my entire life. I think I was a little bit more offended by the level at which she took things than she was by me saying that I could try finding her something in a "relaxed fit". You could call me "sir" all day just as long as you get my order right/helped me find what I needed, so that I could get the Hell home and be done with it lol.
I've actually failed really hard at being politically correct once...and, just made things really awkward. Most people just assume that you are straight...and, I was thinking the other day about how people asked if I had a boyfriend. I was thinking it would be funny if I said, "No, I don't have a boyfriend...but, I have a girlfriend." I know no one means anything by it...I don't think that their homophobic just because they have "straight brain." It's just kind of more of the norm...so, whatever. But, one day, I was asking a girl in nursing school if her boyfriend lived in Birmingham. (She had said she had a date for her whatever year anniversary). Then, I caught myself and said, "Well....unless you are a lesbian, and have a girlfriend...not that I think you are a lesbian...I mean..." It was a pretty good laugh. She finally said that she was straight and not a lesbian. We both laughed and I said, "Well, you just try to be as neutral as possible...but, then you just come out really awkward and crazy."
However, I also wanted to add that how you described yourself dressed (OP) was definitely in a style that I feel that no one should have called you "Sir." I would have said "ma'am" to you and I feel like most people that are sensitive would since you obviously are presenting as a female. (Nail polish, women's clothes, purse, girlie hair).
Last edited by Shananigans; 06-11-2012 at 06:38 PM.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
As a former waiter, I have say the "sir" and "ma'am" suffixes are an automatic habit when dealing with customers. When your tip can very well depend on politeness, you quickly learn to be as polite as possible. Like, I called kids sir or ma'am without even meaning too. That being said, I would probably have referred to you as ma'am but I'm probably more gender open minded. I mean, it's possible that they aren't paying much attention to what you're wearing, especially of they are busy and just going by your voice and assumed you dressed a little more metro or something.
I also think male waiters tend to use suffixes more because you don't get as good tips as female waiters (who tend to relate more to customers and thus get better tips while male waiters are business: "hi sir/ma'am, can I get you something to drink? What do you want to eat? Here's your dessert/check. Have a good one")
Being a waiter can be super stressful like when ou have 8 different tables at different levels of service, you don't really have time to analyze what someone is wearing and which gender pronouns they would prefer to hear.
EDIT: also a million shame on you's for letting your personal problems affect how you tip an otherwise good waiter. I should be more sensitive, but if they are busting their a$$ to serve you and you can't get over that they don't know about "the third gender" then you need to work as a waiter and see what happens to your tipping habits /rant
Last edited by CamilleLeon; 06-11-2012 at 07:21 PM.
"It makes no difference whether the voices in their transformations have each other to depend on or not. Smooth them out on the whetstone of the universe (tian), use them to go by and let the stream find its own channels; this is the way to live out your years. Forget the years, forget duty, be shaken into motion by the limitless, and so find things their lodging-places in the limitless." ~Zhuangzi
"everyone here hates everyone here for doing the same thing that they do." - Less Than Jake
it is just an automatic way to address an individual, they are not trying to tick you off, they just read that you are male and call you sir. When i was at DLV, i knew that the people there were obviously trying to present as female, yet when i was speaking with them i caught myself referring to them in opposite gender that they were attempting to present in. I felt bad and did not mean to offend them in any way, it is just so automatic, I could tell they were male. I think they understood as i apologized but what was done was done.
that's right. minimum federal wages for wait-staff is 2.83/hr. And, the IRS taxes you on the total of your "sales" and so if you don't get a tip, you do get scre...d. IRS expects tippers to leave at least 10%. Sorry, off topic but many folks don't know this.
And yes, you are right, if one is presenting MORE male characteristics than female, men are going to say SIR,
Last edited by busker; 06-11-2012 at 07:35 PM.
When en femme I work very hard to make sure that I present as many feminine cues as possible. I can't remember ever being referred to as "sir" when en femme.
When en drab I carry a shoulder bag, wear Capris, colorful shirts, etc. but I'm still tall and have a short male haircut so I don't hear Ma'am, but I have noticed a couple of double takes.
Do I care? I used to, but frankly I don't have time to worry about someone making a mistake if I'm throwing ambiguous information at them. I enjoy wearing what I wear and it is no skin off my nose if someone gets confused.
A few months ago I was in JC Penneys and noted a tall (>6') thin woman whose hair was very short, as short as mine. She was, AFAIK, a GG, but the only outward cues were her modest-sized breasts. She was dressed in jeans and didn't carry a purse. She was standing in line at the customer service counter and the person there said "I can help you now, Sir." She walked up, the checker took a closer look and then said "excuse me,... Ma'am." She didn't seem to be bothered at all by the misidentification and it seems that if one is going to present an ambiguous image one should expect an error now and then.
Eryn
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Hello dollings,
Well shussh I love calling surly or unpleasant young people sirs and Ma'am, you should see their rude little faces seem confused its delicious you all should give it a whorl.
they do that sir thing to get your goat! we all know that men in general are dogs and do stuff just to make you mad. if it's not this it would be something else. don't let it bother you next time hit him.
Is it possible female waitstaff view you as a male transitioning to a woman?
Is it possible male waitstaff view you as a female transitioning to a man?
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