Betrayed

[Lola14U]

Thank you for all your comments. There is a lot of information for me to digest and understand. I felt betrayed as I was not told the extent of his CDing---didnt have a clue. I know now a days lies and dishonestly may not seem like much, but for me it was. Trust is big for me. Maybe I should have titled it... Dishonesty-- to eliminate those who provided feedback that it was too strong of a word. I feel the discription was appropriate for me and am comfortable with not every one agreeing. The point of the issue is I was completely blindsided and had no way of knowing I needed to set these boundaries as I didnt know the issue existed. But I am trying to learn, understand and accept the best I can. I dont see this happening over night and have found this site extremely helpful! Thank you all for your comments and insight-

Thank you for your support. I hope to apply for FAB as it seems like that might be a good place for me to find support.

Bullseye! Thank you for your post and your support!

None of that is relevant to the fact that the OP and her husband had an agreement that the cross-dressing stayed in the bedroom and the husband betrayed the agreement.



Give it up Lori, Raquel is determined to blame the OP for the fact that her husband broke his agreement.

At this point I am not trying to blame anyone...that was never my goal... I am simply trying to understand it.

I sincerely hope that certain posts haven t driven Lola away - God knows, its hard enough to fathom some aspects of CD'ing, and when someone comes to a forum that purports to be a place for support and help, I guess that's what they are hoping to find.

It did somewhat ...but everyone has a right to their opinion. There are several that I totally disagree with but many more are on target. All I can do it is take it one day at a time! Thank You!

OK... against my internal judgement, but here I go. Lola may or may not come back, but if she does (and you are reading this Lola), there will be a lot to read through and digest!

Some great posts here on all levels. I was all fired up and then some latter posts caught it for me... Betrayal is a big word! If I do not tell my SO about something that I do not understand and cannot put into words is it betrayal? Is learning something about yourself but not being sure what it is or what it may (or may not) become, and fearing that if you talk about it, it will cause an issue that you will not be able to discuss with any sense of meaning... betrayal?

My wife has with-held things from me because she felt it was the right thing to do - for me and the family. So have I... We did it out of love and mutual respect - it hurts - but we must look for the positive intention in people's actions, thoughts and attitudes.

As Kim said... it is about trust. I may not like some of things my wife chooses to do or not do, but I trust her intentions... implicitly.

I would imagine each relationship is different. My trust has been broken and I hope in time we can work through it. I am pretty certain if the shoe was on the other foot for you, you may respond differently. Regardless you have your right to your opinion and I appreciate your comments. Thank you!

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Lola I'm so pleased that you have come back - please do get your 10 posts in and join us in FAB forum.

The fact that you are here is testament to the fact that you are willing to try and work this through with your OH. I hope he is also making the effort.

[Lorileah]

Welcome back!

At this point I am not trying to blame anyone...that was never my goal... I am simply trying to understand it.

pssst...Rhianna was saying that Raquel was blaming you Things taht seem not important can be a real blow to the other person. We often assume that "it isn't a big deal". But it can be a big deal. When something like this happens the partner (you) who gets blindsided starts to ask "what else are you hiding?" Yes it is clothes, clothes that if your SO had asked maybe you would have said "Yeah go ahead" about wearing. But the fact that it was done on the sly makes you wonder. Most of us know that. How are things going? (and if you reply to this that is one more post closer to getting your 10 )

[Silentpartner GG SO]

and if you reply to this that is one more post closer to getting your 10 )

nice one Lorileah

[ReineD]

Hi Lola, welcome back.

Please do post enough times to count ten total posts outside of any posts made in Intro sections, and then apply to join FAB. I think you will be helped by FAB as well.

[Jessica86]

It isn't the dressing that is bothering you. It's the fact it has been "hidden" for 15 years. The act of hiding in itself. I think since you are comfortable in the room with it, he thought he had free reign since you "knew" that he wears things like that. All you need to do is tell him you are not okay with him leaving the home like that. He should respect your needs. If not, he obviously has no idea what he has.

[Raquel June]

People are all over the place with their advice, and I think ReineD and Tina B. both make very good (and conflicting) points.

I just don't understand why she won't say what her husband was planning to do. That's a pretty important piece of information -- and if he won't tell her or she doesn't trust him to be honest about where he was going, that's also an important piece of information.

[donnalee]

I'm amazed at the number of people who have given advice, most of it extremely drastic, without any kind of clear information as to who the OP was,who did what to whom and under what circumstances. Even after some info was provided, it was far from enough to form an opinion and certainly not enough to give recommendations as to how the OP should proceed.
One thing that has always bothered me is the often expressed idea that a couple should have to share every bit of of their lives with each other; sometimes it is far better to keep a portion to oneself. I don't understand how someone can feel "betrayed" without violation of a prior agreement; none has been indicated here.

[Elizabeth]

Hi Lola,

Having been in the community for a long time and having seen many significant others upset about crossdressing, it has been my experience that trust is the major issue. I have yet to meet the partner of a transgendered person, who did not know the person was transgendered, or to what extent they were, that did not feel a sense of betrayal and or trust broken. There are supposed to be no secrets, and yet it happens.

I was in a similar situation as your husband, my now ex-wife knew I liked to wear panties and lingerie in the bedroom, but she had no idea that I had felt like I was a girl since I was very young. One reason, and not much discussed here, is denial. I did the same things your husband did. I dressed in secret, I hid my clothes from my ex-wife and even wore them in public secretly. Even when she caught me, as you caught your husband, I was still denying it was anything other than a fetish.

The reason is because I felt I could do nothing about it. Around age 19 I realized that I was never going to transition. There was no internet and all the crossdressers I seen were on Phil Donahue as female impersonators and entertainers. I didn't know about Harry Benjamin and the first sex change operations in the United States did not happen until the 70's. Basically I had to accept I was a freak and no one could ever know the truth. I was going to have to live as a man.

But in my first year of marriage my ex suggested we try on each others underwear during a sexual encounter, so we did. This emboldened me so I did it more and bought more lingerie. I started wearing them under my clothes at work, dressing in secret when she was not at home and even to bed in lingerie, without my ex knowing. Eventually she found out, we had a huge fight and I had to purge all my clothes and promise to never crossdress again, to avoid divorce and loss of custody of my children. This was a promise I would not be able to keep.

After many fights and many purges we reached an agreement where I could wear girls underwear full time with her knowledge, but it was begrudged acceptance. Still, whenever I was alone, or on business trips, I would buy more clothes and wear them and even throw them away before I came home, if I had to.

The thing is, I didn't want to lie, she made me lie by being inflexible and continually threatening to divorce me, out me, and take my kids. Over the years, the resentments grew and eventually she did what she said. She outed me to my brother, and that started what would become a very nasty divorce. But once outed, I embraced it and have lived as a woman ever since.

I married a woman who only knows me as Elizabeth. We are best friends and spend almost all of our time together. We are friends, girlfriends, lovers and each others number one fan. I have been living in the open since that time and in the end, all of my children excepted me and my three minor children at the time of the divorce all chose to live with me, even living as a woman.

So your husband may be in denial. I never dreamed I could actually live my life as a woman, so I remained in denial about how serious my gender dysphoria was. My ex asked me many times if I wanted to live the "crossdresser lifestyle", and I always denied it saying it was just a fetish. I would suggest you and your husband get some therapy and find out what each of you really feels. Only then will communication be useful.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I think something as contentious as going out fully dressed en femme, when the wife is safely at work is implied betrayal. To say that there was no agreement is IMO splitting hairs. There are lots of things in life and marriage that arent specifically gone over with a fine tooth comb, its just obvious what is expected.

For example - when you get married, its fairly well implied that you are not going to sleep around. You dont specifically agree not to do so. If you decide an open marriage is what you want, then you would brooch the subject and discuss it. You wouldnt expect to just go ahead and sleep with the nextdoor neighbout and then say "well you didnt say I couldnt" would you???

Lola was, by implication, lead to believe that her SO's dressing was "bedroom fun" - therefore the implication was that it was going to stay in the bedroom. Something as fundamental as going out fully dressed 'in secret' when she wasnt around is pretty sneaky - that's not just 'not sharing every detail' that's downright deceitful. Lola may have been absolutely ok with her husband going out dressed but she wasnt given the opportunity to say yay or nay.

You cannot seriously expect a wife to say what she is ok with if she doesnt know what there is to be ok or not ok about. The onus is on the husband to say what it is he is wanting from the dressing and then discuss with his wife what she is ok with - and take it from there, regardless of what the intention was or where the husband was going when he was dressed. IMO that is slightly irrelevant in this case. The issue here is something being done deliberately behind the wife's back. I would be pretty damn miffed about if it happened to me and I am very accepting of my husband's CD'ing. I would add that my husband would not do this without running it by me first anyway.

[Kaz]

Hi Lola, I just want you to think about posting so you get your 10 in and then join the FAB (female at birth) group and you will get tons of advice from women that have shared experiences with you - this is a really good support forum! You don't have to say much in a post... just meet the character quota... 20 words will do it! Probably less..

I hope my post helped in terms of context... every relationship is different and there are no generic fixes, but we can learn from others ('cases'.. is the usual term). English Common Law is based on this principle and the line of academic research I am involved in also works on this principle... that knowledge is built from experience.

I hope you hang in here and get to work things out. You have reached a crowd who really want to help!

[Babeba]

Lola, I'm so glad to see you post again! Please do keep posting - I really want to see you join us in FAB! Both Reine and I have links to how to join at the bottom of our posts.

I just don't understand why she won't say what her husband was planning to do. That's a pretty important piece of information -- and if he won't tell her or she doesn't trust him to be honest about where he was going, that's also an important piece of information.

Raquel, I think Lola has been trying to give the bare minimum information because this is a board that is visible by anyone, and she is not super comfortable with that. I know I would hate to give any details here that would out myself (and therefore my boyfriend, who is not out as a cross dresser and has a quite public role in a very small town) in case someone we know did a Google search that happened to bring up something (anything) that was - to them - identifiable. Some wives are not comfortable with how they feel, are not ready to express that to their husbands, and need to work through things logically before they can talk about things to their husbands that involve such confusing emotions. This is why we have FAB, to be private, supportive and for GGs in relationships with people in this community only.

On one purely logical level, a lot of people are objectively right - why on Earth would some simple scraps of cloth cause something so strong as betrayal? But then when you acknowledge that EVERY FEELING YOU FEEL IS VALID, you remember that people sometimes die for wearing the wrong colour bandana in LA (something no one told me when I was in my bandana loving phase as a teenager and visited there!), that people wear their national identity in their keffiyehs, and let's not forget all the emotional reactions so many people have to full Muslim dress. My point being, feelings are feelings and they can be strong about clothing, even unexpectedly.

[suchacutie]

I just reread this entire thread and the word betrayal is not unwarrented here, IMHO. Lola was led to believe that the extent of her husband's feminine self was a bit of bedroom activity.

Suddenly she finds her husband completely transformed, and as we all know that kind of sophistication does not happen overnight. Lola had been systematically mislead. How can that fact not destroy trust? You all know how the logic goes: "if he can mislead me in this, what else is there lurking around the next corner"? We have all read, on this forum, about how this kind of undermining of trust can break a marriage. We also know just how difficult the psychology of being transgendered can be, and how hard it is to open up to anyone, a spouse included.

This is a serious issue and some professional help may be needed, not to condemn anyone or try to "cure" anyone, but in order to rebuild the trust that is necessary in every strong relationship.

I truly hope that both Lola and her husband can come to understand the very difficult issues that surround them. I know we all understand how had this can be and are pulling for them strongly!

tina

[Jessica86]

^^ The marriage thing was a poor example. You DO agree to not sleep around if you get married in a Christian setting. Adultery ring a bell? It's one of the ten commandments......

I could understand if she came home to find him with another woman...feeling "betrayed." That's breaking a WRITTEN and PROMISED code. When you get married and promise to "love HER and KEEP HER," that's where that is. The bottom line thing you need to look at is this. This is a preference someone has. Someone has a preference to do what they do. If he was to go out in his boxers to check the mail, would you feel "betrayed?" If he prefers to eat alligator, would you feel "betrayed"? I have only felt betrayed twice in my life. The two times my ex wife cheated on me. Once just forty eight hours before we got married...after waiting ten years to get married as virgins. THAT'S betrayal.

Did he lie to you? Probably so. This is like giving a kid a ball, saying "Play with it in your room." You come home, and find he's outside with it, and you are upset he's playing with the ball JUST because he's outside. I know I'm up against the majority, but I would understand this alot more if you didn't approve of it at all. If you didn't know anything, and came home to find it. I know when I dress, I walk around in heels, dressed to impress at times just because I want to. I don't leave, but I dang sure look like I'm going to. I don't see betrayal as an appropriate word here.

[ReineD]

Let me ask those of you who feel that "betrayed" is too strong a word.

Aside from the fact that Lola and her husband were kinky in the bedroom, do you feel that a GG in general is overreacting if she feels a sense of betrayal when she discovers that her husband has hidden the CDing from her, and that the gender issues are strong enough to the point where he feels it necessary to go out and present as a woman in public?

Keep in mind that to Lola, wearing panties for kink is as unrelated to the CDing as having a foot fetish.

[Jessica86]

Reine, after two people meet, we learn things about each other. I know one thing that aggravates my wife is that if I am really tired, I shake my feet to help me fall asleep. She doesn't like eggs unless they are scrambled. She hates seafood, yet, I'm from an island where that is all we ate! All of these things are preferences and we all learn things about each other the other tried to hide. It's not betrayal, it's developing a relationship as long as the issues are talked about. What you must ask yourself is how much do you love your partner? If they got hooked on drugs, would you help them or just give up on them and leave? What about a disease? What about finding out they were really a man/woman? I can tell you I would deal with any of those things in a heart beat because I love my wife. You deal with things you don't want to because these problems arise in relationships. They just do. No matter who you are married to. Sure, if abuse or cheating occurs, that's different as it is deemed by the churches who founded marriage as wrong. This is just a different kind of problem...that really isn't a problem when you think about it. He doesn't beat you, stay out all night drinking or getting high, or cheat on you. He just likes to be himself. Unlike the others, this is easy. Take him into a room. If you approve, say you do. If you don't, say you don't, and would prefer not to see him like that. It's that easy. If that isn't respected, then sure, draw the line. Highly doubt it will happen though because he knows he upset you. I just don't see betrayal fitting into ANY situation we are in just from the dressing alone. Betrayal is promising one thing, and doing another. That doesn't apply here to me.

[ReineD]

All of these things are preferences and we all learn things about each other the other tried to hide.

Ahhh! But this is where the attitudes of CDers and their wives fundamentally differ. To the CDers who have felt a kinship with femininity (to varying degrees) all or most of their lives, or for a number of years, this is a part of their very fabric and it really is no big deal. They know who they are, it's normal for them, they've lived in their own skins and they have no other sense of gender identity than what they experience daily. I think it's safe to say that most CDers don't really understand why the non-accepting wives are so non-accepting. As you say, the prevailing attitude is, "I'm no different than I always was. Doesn't she love me enough to accept my inner core?"

But, gender variance to most people is not only confusing, it is disapproved of and censured even if subconsciously, and this comes from society's general lack of understanding. There is a lack of understanding because there are so few CDers and they have kept themselves closeted, which perpetuates the lack of understanding. You know that homosexuality used to be considered a mental disease and even today it is considered a perversion in some circles. The same attitudes prevail over M2F cross-gender expression. Unlike her husband, a wife has nothing in her own internal landscape to relate to that will give her a sense of normalcy. She is very much a product of societal ignorance and bias (just like the CDs who hate the CDing and who go through years of purging cycles) and I cannot blame her for feeling as if it is *a big deal* to discover that her husband might be *one of those*. If he has purposely hidden the full extent from her (again, there is quite a jump from kinky bedroom play to full CDing), she feels betrayed.

This is not to say that she cannot embark on a learning path, and certainly Lola is here to do this. But the initial reaction is very much one of betrayal over having been lied to about something that is so HUGE. It's apparent from reading the responses in this thread that few people will understand a wife's POV, other than the wives who have walked in her shoes.

If Lola says that she feels betrayed, this is how she feels and no one has the right to tell her that her feelings are wrong. People can suggest ways that she can learn more about the CDing in order to move beyond her feelings of betrayal, but to invalidate her feelings is not a way to help someone who wants to understand her husband.

I didn't mean to write so much, but honestly this is a no-brainer to me and I'm astounded there are so many people who just don't get it.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Reine, I totally agree with you but I think that you are banging your head on a brick wall. Some people are just not willing to see things from the wife's point of view, which I find a bit rich because they will quickly complain about their wives not willing to try and understand their need to dress. It goes both ways doesnt it.

[Jenniferathome]

.... do you feel that a GG in general is overreacting if she feels a sense of betrayal when she discovers that her husband has hidden the CDing from her...

No, it is not. In fact, if he has been saying it was just bedroom fun, he has been lying. It always comes back to the "if he can lie to me about this, what else is there?" question. Going "out" is absolutely something that should be discussed. I am not saying the husband has to ask for permission, but both his feelings and hers need to come out.

[Kaz]

This has certainly opened up some interesting viewpoints, and having read through the thread again I am minded by the lack of context we have to Lola's situation. I therefore suspect that many of the 'stances' that seem to be being taken are more subjective than objective. Nothing wrong with this, but this opens up another level of debate around those subjective stances. In this arena, it is usual that a lot of assumptions are being made and then the tendency is to retrench to comfortable 'positions'. And then the debate gets polarised and breaks down into the usual male - female perspectives. Certainly I have approached this from 'my position' of 'intention'. As people we develop and change over time but my intention in my relationship has always been positive. I have always put my wife's feelings, needs and wants before mine. The case I guess I was postulating was that sometimes it is difficult to tell what we don't understand and maybe haven't realised yet. This is certainly true for me and my marriage. My wife has been deeply upset that she now has something going on that she didn't 'sign up' for... but I feel the same about other things... I just rationalise it as 'she didn't know life was going to pan out like this at the time, so how could she have told me?'.

Now if Lola's partner has 'known' about where his interest in women's clothes was going to take him all along and he had a plan to deceive her, then yeah, guilty as charged... and I really feel for Lola. If he is just mixed up and trying to work through his issues so that he can then communicate, this is very different.

I have learned so much from this forum and if I knew then what I know now I would have done things very differently indeed. It would have been a very different journey indeed.

My natural inclination is not to judge and condemn, but to understand... and then build for the future...

[Rianna Humble]

if Lola's partner has 'known' about where his interest in women's clothes was going to take him all along and he had a plan to deceive her, then yeah, guilty as charged... and I really feel for Lola.

So, do you feel that having let Lola believe that this was just bedroom playtime but in parallel spent so much time that he could perfect a look that initially deceived his wife, this indicates he was simply mixed up?

Or would you say that taking time off of work to dress up with full make-up and go out was just part of him not knowing where the "bedroom playtime" would lead?

My natural inclination is not to judge and condemn, but to understand...

It is good that you don't judge and condemn, perhaps you can set an example for Raquel and the others who blame Lola for not knowing that "bedroom playtime" meant going behind her back to perfect a look and go out en femme at a time when she thought he was at work.

[Kaz]

I wish I had all your wisdom and understanding Rianna. I will back out of this as I am clearly outclassed in the understanding and tolerance stakes. I unreservedly apologise to everybody I have offended by trying to be open and honest and not to take sides, but rather to seek understanding. There are times, I now appreciate, where tolerance and a genuine need for understanding are not appropriate and I sincerely apologise for getting that call wrong.

Just for the record, Lola, if you are reading this, please feel free to PM me (send me a personal message) - I would be really happy to share my experiences with you. I totally support your concerns and feelings and am seeking to understand, learn, help, etc... The place I am coming from is one of... if I can share with you my thoughts and emotions as I struggle with this journey I have been on, then the world might be a more informed place and we might make better life decisions... I am NOT supporting your SO as I don't have sufficient data, but I have been trying to explore potential scenarios...

I am still with my wife and we have had many ups and downs... I don't know what the future holds, we have difficulties to deal with on both sides and in relation to our kids, relatives, etc.. life gets complex as you get older...! She will not accept any of it... she regards it as kinky and doesn't want to know. For me it isn't kinky... and it is isn't weird... it is just me.

I thought that I might help... if I am not, just push the exterminate button... I am just another cross-dresser who didn't realise what it was about until it was too late and has been repairing the damage for a long, long time.

And to Rianna... your tag says...'to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any....'

I thought I was... but your words of wisdom and well thought through implications just leave me in awe! I bow to you...

And I apologise to everyone on the thread and in particular Lola... I did post with positive intention... and I do feel for what you are going through...

[Rianna Humble]

I wish I had all your wisdom and understanding Rianna. I will back out of this as I am clearly outclassed in the understanding and tolerance stakes.

I'm sorry that you saw this as a put-down I was trying to use your words to bring out my questions relating to what a number of people have been saying in the thread and I genuinely meant what I said about your attitude being an positive example to other posters.

Numerous posters have condemned the OP for feeling her trust had been betrayed and have even gone so far as to accuse her (IMNSHO unjustly) of behaving intolerantly towards her husband because she has come here trying to find a way to understand. You, Kaz, were not one of them.

[Beverley Sims]

I think you should all slow down, read Reniee's posts #92 and #94.
The explanations there do help level the playing field and a lot of discussion seems duplicated.

[Jessica86]

Reine, I totally agree with you but I think that you are banging your head on a brick wall. Some people are just not willing to see things from the wife's point of view, which I find a bit rich because they will quickly complain about their wives not willing to try and understand their need to dress. It goes both ways doesnt it.

What about those like me? Those who have a WIFE who says she thinks people are crazy for thinking it's a big problem. She's the one who gave me "he doesn't beat her, do drugs, stay out all night drinking and cheating on her..." line. I was the one who didn't think about that until SHE told ME. I agree with her. I have a career where I deal with people's problems. Daily. Hourly. I can say it can be WAYYYY worse between people. I get what Reine is saying, but I just think (and wife too) that this is over reaction. This is something you tell someone you don't want, and it is fixed. If not, then you leave if it's that big of a deal to you to separate you from someone you have been with all along, and hasn't changed. There are those who don't accept it. Saying that, I'm happy they say they don't. At least they acknowledge us, and give us an honest answer. When reading posts, I'm lucky enough to have a wife read with me, and even she says this doesn't make sense. Just tell him your thoughts and act on his response.