Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin
Woman you said a mouth full there ,,,An I will be the first to use that Defense ,,, Amennnnnn ,,,, That's the Only thing they Understand ,,WHY ? Answered !!
Woman you said a mouth full there ,,,An I will be the first to use that Defense ,,, Amennnnnn ,,,, That's the Only thing they Understand ,,WHY ? Answered !!
Yull Find Out !!! lol,,,,
There has been an interesting diversion by the visitors to this forum who have either "called it like they see" - to which I could reply in the words of John Lennon "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" - or those who on zero evidence have accused us of pushing a "questioner" (certainly not the OP) to transition at all costs.
Perhaps it is best if we now concentrate on the painful realities evidenced in the original post and in the reply from her wife Angies GG.
It is very evident from your words here that you are facing a terrible dilemma, you have been trying to live as the man that your wife married but as a consequence are facing ever deepening depression. Your love for your wife comes over loud and clear and I would not want to be faced with this situation.
There can still be good outcomes even if you find you have to transition, as evidenced by both Kathryn and Kaitlyn's example, and I hope that you and Angies GG manage to find a successful compromise. What gives me hope is that you are both trying to do just this.
Angies GG, you have already proved yourself to be an exceptional and loving person by coming to these forums to try to understand better and to publicly offer your support as you have here. My heart goes out to you because you did not sign up for this, yet you are willing to try to work through it with your husband.
I hope that you understand that this is not something that Steph would have chosen and if she could get through it without causing you any hurt that is what her heart would desire more than anything in the world.
Please do continue to come into this forum, there are a number of members who have a great understanding of what you are going through because they have lived it with their own partner.
Contrary to what has been stated, those of us who know the pain and anguish that Gender Dysphoria brings to our lives are not in the business of pushing someone into transition as the only option and we would love to be there both for you and for Steph.
I truly hope that between you and Steph, you can come up with a compromise that will allow you two to continue as the best of friends that you have been for the last 23 years
Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.
This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
I went through this thread again because i have a lot of interest in trying to support husbands and wives going through this..
i found no questioning in your posts...rianna touched on this ...there is a whole derailment of why you and angie came here by people with an agenda...reine called it confirmaton bias but its not that all.... this is the transsexual forum for crying out loud...hopefully you came here to talk to transsexuals...
one of the things you will face as a transsexual is people telling you no.. including crossdressers and gender queer people.. they have a different problem than you have, they have a different solutition to your problem...and they make assumptions about you that aren't true because they really don't share your experience...
certainly its possible that you will change your mind at some point, but hope is not a strategy, and the transsexual people here will all tell you that it doesn't turn around like that
..those of us that simply took you at your word (and angie) have alot of information and experience to share..nobody is going to try to push anyone to transition because that is a drastic and destructive step...but you may find over time that you feel you have no choice in the matter or that you simply can't go on without it...and in that case, the last thing you need is a bunch of people telling you that what you know to be true in your heart and soul isn't true, or that somehow because they have a good marraige as a crossdressing couple you can take something out of it...
I hope you guys don't get discouraged by some of the back and forth that goes on around here, thats the last thing you need..
My heart goes out to both Steph and Angie. I can totally relate to this complex situation as My wife and I are going through this difficult process also. It is tricky maneuvering through the minefield without a map showing the mines. On one hand we have our inner desires to be one way , our wives have thier own desires and fears and to try to find middle ground may not be possible. The one thing transition is teaching me is that one needs to develop patience. Allowing chemicals to do their work, develop the socialisation skills, and sense of style needed to transition successfully and lastly to attempt family members, friends and business associates to be comfortable with and hopefully accept the mental and physical changes that occur. In my situation the use of hormones has completely alleviated my anxiety has produced a sense of calm tha allows me to not obsess abut my gid or lack of quick progress. I am glad that the love my wife and I have for each other is slowing my transition to allow both of us the opportunity to adjust to this process. Where we end is I have no idea and it is painful to have plans of being together in retirement and having those plans after 30years of marriage completely shattered and adjusting to new realities takes a tremendous amount of energy. My comfort level at this time is such that I am able to mitigate my gid to allow me the energy to devote to saving the relationship. I also know that if seperation is emminent that circumstances will change I will take my foot off the brake and press the accelerator a bit more.
I also believe that individual that posts that we should be slapped to snap out of it has no idea what we are going through. Only those of us that harbor these conflicting thoughts or have lived through them can truly understand the mental pain and anguish.
Hi All
(I know,I know.........Great, not this freak again)
Even though we don't agree on most things, I appreciate the fact that we stand mostly together on helping these folks get this marriage under wraps because that is something I hold dearly in my heart.
I don't quite understand the tg, ts,cd,pms(some pill induced),pg13 thing going on and I don't really want to know. I know some of us are special in ways I don't understand and I don't need to understand since it's none of my business.
You have your battles and I have mine. You command yours and I'll handle mine.
Agreed..........................
Thera
P.S. lets see who else I can't give HELL too.........
Steph,
I just read this post for the first time and I only scanned through the replies but I wanted to reply all the same.
When I read it I remembered something someone told me once in a post. I was going to write it to you in my own words, but decided to take the time and look it up in the archives so I can credit the right person. The fact that I even remembered it after a year says its must have been worth saying. Thank you Melissa, I have hung on to those words all year.
Interestingly enough, shortly after my thread which Melissa responded that quote in, I had decided to fully transition. I was on HRT by September. I sit here now typing this with a splint on my nose. SRS will be next and as soon as the medical industry will allow me. There is no turning back. I don't even want to look back except that I had such great experiences I do not want to forget them entirely, I just want to reconstruct those memories with me as a tomboy instead of a (yuck, do I have to even say the word).
I was warned multiple times that to transition was to risk everything. I figured, if I am dead, I lose everything anyway, so I wasn't really risking all that much. I didn't truly get to understand what that meant until today, when I was heating up some soup for lunch and every time I opened a cabinet it was emptied by my wife who was packing things up to move into her new home with the kids.
To think about losing everything is one thing, but to experience it is a whole lot harder, especially without the aid of testosterone. They are my everything and I lost them - somewhat.
We both share a bond like few couples do and we are recreating our relationship. It is interesting because there is nothing to compare it to. I am not like a girlfriend because, well, let's face it, she did not have two kids with her other girlfriends. She never slept, with her other girlfriends. The fact of the mater is, I am a bit more than a girlfriend and she is too. We may be separated and on the way to divorce, but not as an angry hateful couple. Instead as two people who are doing what we must in order to save our relationship.
You have some tough decisions ahead and since you started this thread in July it is likely you have already made some.
I wish you luck and you are both in my prayers.
Last edited by abigailf; 10-26-2012 at 01:11 PM.
- AF
Look girl, act girl, feel girl ... be girl.
...and you just made me cry!
Dammit I hope nobody walks into my office for awhile.
I am going through the same thing. This thread has been tremendously helpful and I thank everyone for pouring out their thoughts here. It's a very tough decision, and I've finally come to realize that "I AM A WOMAN" and therefore a TRANSSEXUAL. Chelsea is tired and not going to take it anymore. Be honest and true - I always say this, but until now never REALLY applied it to myself. So, the psycho analysis goes on and new doors will be open.
BTW, just love you STACY B, you brighten my day with every post.
Obviously you're not being a bad person by seeing this as something he is doing to you that is hurting you.
But, really, what are the possible realities here?
1) Your husband is trans.
2) Your husband is not trans.
If your husband is not trans, then ... hmm ... what does that mean? He's just a lunatic? He's completely stressed out and has cracked? Or he's a guy who likes to express his feminine side more than you want him to.
Either way, unless he's just crazy and needs help, the truth is that you can't accept your husband. He's not what you want. So where are you guys going besides a downward spiral of codependency and resentment?
Even if he/she gets over these issues, aren't you still going to resent the whole situation? Or worry that he's just trying to appease you by being more manly? Dread that it'll all start back up again? Will you really ever have a good relationship?
The only real hope for your relationship would be if you came to some type of realization that you're OK with him.
Perhaps the relationship is viable, but you're just having trouble dealing with it because you feel like he's essentially torturing you with all this BS. If that's how you really feel, it would be good to just try to get to the bottom of the bigger picture of who your husband really is.
I'm not saying you have to embrace all the concepts of Gestalt therapy, but The Paradoxical Theory of Change can be eye-opening as far as how we look at change and happiness and our true selves.
http://www.gestalt.org/arnie.htm
(it gets pretty irrelevant and boring towards the end)
Are you both struggling? Are you both unhappy? Do you both need to change?
Change occurs when one becomes what he is, not when he tries to become what he is not. We make ourselves miserable when we compartmentalize our problems and don't live as a single, whole person.
And that paper really had nothing to do with split personalities or transgender issues.
Well, that's the "probably" part...
I've often thought that when I was being critical of myself and feeling like being trans was a totally narcissistic issue.
But there also aren't many vegetarians in oppressed places where a pork chop can save your life. So, if you're never given the chance to practice vegetarianism, are you still a vegetarian on the inside
We're definitely lucky to have the free time to drive ourselves crazy. But, feel free to argue otherwise. I have a decent desk job, but I'm often bored out of my mind. And I think back to jobs like busting my ass unloading semis or hustling driving a UPS truck, and I was never yawning and looking at the clock. Maybe people are all secretly happier when they're struggling.
But in truth, there are transgender people all over the world. There are large impoverished Hijra communities in many parts of Asia that wouldn't be considered First-World.
Oops, if it helps, I cried too.
Raquel makes some really good points and to extend on that.
Angie, you need to prepare yourself for the worse. That is if she transitions will you stay.
Give yourself an honest answer to this question: are you soul mates?
Meaning, are you co-joined at the soul. If you are, then physical awareness is irrelevant and you can have a wonderful life together no mater would destiny does to your shells.
You can love each other and still not be soul mates. You may think you married a man, but in truth you married a person (a woman) who was in a man's body. The same person after transition will just be in an altered body. Perhaps some mannerisms will change as well but at the core she is the same person. If you are soul mates, then the body does not matter.
I suppose any number of things could have happened to alter the body, being transsexual is just one of them and so happens to be the one we all got stuck with. Is it worse than the woman who loses her husband in a car accident or some serious medical condition? I don't know the answer to that, and I sure do not want to find out the hard way, but I do wonder if it is a better then finding out they are trans. I have no perspective on this except I know what happened to my dad is definitely not better. His condition was incurable, at lease mine is. What are your thoughts on that?
Your husband didn't know this was going to happen any more than that person killed in a car accident knew they were going to die that day. It is crud and it just happens. Did we have clue? Sure, but not much different then that person climbing in the car with a drunk driver. We all have clues we just do not always know how to decipher them.
My thoughts, forget about what you think others will think and make a decision based on what you feel and what you feel alone. I know it is not an easy decision. In fact, it is much harder than the decision to transition. For me and I am sure for most, if not all that the ultimate decision to transition was life or death. That made it simple for us. I don't envy your position in the least. The outcome of your decision is a varying degree of sadness all around. Living with the person you fell in love with as a woman when you are not a lesbian. That can't be easy. Or living without the person you fell in love with. There is no win scenario there.
Oddly the scenario was the same from the other side. To not transition and to die either physically or internally is sadness to those left in the wake, or to transition and there is sadness in the loss of a wonderful relationship.
This is so complex. My wife and I decided to separate and start a whole new relationship with each other. We believe once we get past the separation that we could be some really great friends who had a wonderful past together. Well with the exception of the last 5 years perhaps.
Good luck and I shall say a prayer for you.
- AF
Look girl, act girl, feel girl ... be girl.
Does this mean that if a hetero GG cannot be in a lesbian relationship, she doesn't love her husband enough, and he was never her soul mate after all? It was all a lie?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that wives should leaving their transitioning husbands. I greatly admire the GGs who stay the course. But I am saying that I do not think a GG who cannot be in a lesbian relationship loves her husband any less than one who can.
Last edited by ReineD; 10-27-2012 at 12:29 AM.
Reine
I think that's right Reine...i think sometimes when we try to be too positive about things and focus on things like being soul mates or true love it probably feels like pressure to a wife struggling with a transsexual husband
however, i think in abigails case (and mine), our wives are moving on from the marraige but were willing to open their hearts to some kind of relationship.. i know in my case (and i beleive in abigails too) I felt deeply grateful to her and my own response was to do everything i could to share a positive and meaningful friendship with her...this benefits both of us and maybe most importantly our kids..
Well said Kaitlyn.
Yes and no, never soul mates but not necessarily a lie. We are human and prone to mistakes. We both lived believing the same thing only to be challenged at some point in our lives and proven wrong. It wasn't a lie any more than living in as a man all my life was a lie.
This is just how I feel. To leave someone because of a physical change breaks the concept of a soul mate. It doesn't mean the love is not there. There could be immense love, I just don't believe it was soul mate level.
My wife and I love each other very much and honestly, I don't know if I would have stayed with her if she ended up being the transsexual. That doesn't mean I don't love her any less, it just means I was more attached to the physical than I cared to admit to myself.
To all you GG's struggling, don't be afraid to admit to yourself that you are physically attached. It is okay and it is normal.
I had come to this realization when I met with an ex girlfriend recently. She met with me as I am now and she showed me the same level of affection as she did when we had first met so many years ago. I was stunned that a girl that was in love with me as Tom so many years ago could still love me as Tammy. I didn't understand why the woman I chose to live with for the rest of my life could not be that way. It was an eye opening experience. I am not saying the ex is a soul mate either, but the ability to look past the fact that I am now a woman is probably a good start.
I don't blame my wife for her choice either. I am proud of her courage and I support her in her quest for happiness. I still love her very much and want to see her succeed. We get along just as well as we had before had. Sure, sometimes we argue as there is a lot of stress involved in separation, but we work past it, we communicate and we respect each other.
- AF
Look girl, act girl, feel girl ... be girl.
My wife and I have been together over 33 years and married 29. We have a loving stable relationship but she is deeply troubled with recent events over the past year. I know she loves me and I her , but she is struggling with the concept of staying in a marriage with a woman. She feels no physical attraction to women and she believes that there will be none for me as physical changes occur. The marriage may or not end , but I would bet the odds that it will not survive rather than us staying together as a couple. We still talk about future plans together and we discuss them, she even talks about how to approach it with others, She is very concerned how other people will react to her. Maybe we are just hanging on to our dreams I do not know.
I have no doubt that we will be able to work this out and remain in some type of relationship. She is the mother of my children, and also my business partner. Those things will not change. She knows I am her biggest supporter and will remain so.
She kinda understands my need to do this, however it does not make it any easier on her. She can see the positive effects in my personality and outlook towards our business and life and it is causing her distress because although I am experiencing a newfound calm and inner peace it is having an opposite reaction to her. It reminds me of a seesaw and I don't know if we can find a balance point. I worry more about her welfare and security than I do my own , and if that means I need to go at a slower pace than I would like I will accommodate her needs to allow her the time she needs to feel comfortable with me while I transition. Hope springs eternal and my optimistic nature leads me to believe we will stay together, but I my gut feeling is it probably will not end that way.
First of all, I wanted to thank everyone for their comments. I have read each post several times and have found a lot of valuable information and support. I would love to comment on each post, but the amount of replies has made that impossible.
Since I started this thread, I have been trying to live within boundaries that we set up in order for our marriage to work, and we have moved these boundaries more and more in my favor as Angie tries to see what she can handle. Unfortunately, she has gone way beyond her comfort level, and I have not reached the point where I feel I need to be. We are best friends and love each other dearly, but we have come to the realization that there may not be a common ground where we can both be happy.
In preparation for a possible separation, we have decided to tell my family. Angie’s family lives locally and knows, but we hadn’t told mine because they live out of state. In the last couple of days we told my older sister and her husband, then one of my brothers and his wife. They were all very supportive. Both my sister and brother cried and told me that they were very sad that I had to live with this all my life and that I did not feel able to share my burden. They said that they will love and support both of us in whatever decision we make, and they will be there for me however far I decide to go. We will tell my other brother and my parents next weekend.
Despite being obviously very sad about what is happening, Angie has been very supportive this entire process. She has become very good at explaining this in a way that helps people understand and accept it. I am sure that the acceptance of my sister and brother was in part because of Angie’s explanation. She will be flying to the Bay Area with me to tell my parents. We have not given up on our marriage yet, but whatever the outcome, I feel confident that we will always be close.
Dear Steph and Angie,
I'm so sorry for you both that you must endure this pain. The fact that you are enduring it in partnership is testiment to your love. You truly have a very special relationship and I have a feeling that everything will work out for you both, some way, some how. Hang in there.
Mac.
Steph (and Angie, if you're reading this), what are the boundaries exactly? Outside of transition (which I gather hasn't been decided on yet), what are Angie's current limits, and where do you feel you need to be right now, Steph?
Reine
I know its dumb but shaving is still a huge thing for me. Its all about what it represents. Also leaving the house and going out in the real world. I can somewhat tolerate going to on meeting a month. But that probably doesnt satisfy stephs need to pass in the real world. In addition to all of that steph probably feels female on the inside. Yes its still the same person, but becoming aware of the inside persona is another thing I cant deal with from a HUSBAND. None of these would be an issue for me if it wasnt my spouse.
Have you two tried taking some time apart from each other (just temporarily) so the both of you can have some time alone to process your feelings rather than being bombarded with these issues every day? Maybe to give you some time to think about how you feel about all this without having to face it every day, and give her some time to explore herself and also think about how how this is affecting the two of you?
OK. I'm going to say something that is advice I would give to any wife, assuming that until her husband has decided without a shadow of a doubt that he is TS, then there is a chance that he might not be ... even though we are in the TS section of this forum. It is rare that a wife posts in her husband's thread in the TS section, but it is what it is.
I cannot emphasize this strongly enough, but whether Steph is TS or not, she does need to leave her closet. Non-TSs leave their closets too, for example my SO is not TS (not planning HRT or SRS), but s/he is more than just an occasional CDer who is happy putting on girlie clothes and staying home. S/he needs to interact with others as herself. This is a natural progression for MTFs who are gender non-conforming, and so he has constructed a life for herself where she does this fluidly - she goes out on a regular basis, while at the same time protecting his male life since most people do not understand this - and this means looking the part: i.e., not having male tell-tale signs such as hairy legs & chest, and a beard shadow. A TS wants the same thing (no body hair, no beard), but a TS also wants to not live as a man at all, ever, and eventually wants to modify her entire body as well (breasts and a vagina).
If my SO were in a relationship with a GG who put the brakes on his need to express herself fully, this would be unbearable to her/him. S/he would not be happy and he would need to find a way to express herself no matter how much he loved his SO. Just because s/he is not TS does not mean that feminine gender expression is an option, nor is it a fetish or a "hobby". The only way that s/he can maintain a healthy balance with his gender duality (for lack of a better word), is to have the ability to express her femininity whenever s/he feels the need to do this, which works out to a few times per week. S/he has a rather busy schedule and s/he is also invested in his career and other things that he is interested in.
This is really hard to explain.
So anyway, you have choices:
1. Not accept Steph's needs, which might (or will?) cause the two of you to break up, or cause Steph to stay in the marriage but be deeply unhappy.
2. Accept Steph's needs to see where this will all lead.
If you choose option 2, one of two things will happen:
A. Steph will cease to be frustrated with his current inability to be herself and she will eventually find a balance given your needs too. There will be a separation between male and female lives, since this is the only way that someone who is not fully TS can live in our current society.
B. Steph will eventually decide that she is TS and will want to live full time. If this happens and you are not OK with being in a lesbian relationship then you will divorce.
So. If you do want to attempt saving your marriage, the only viable option is (2A), because each of options (1) and (2B) will spell the end of your marriage. This will mean a great deal of stretching and deconstructing gender (moving away for the idea that all people are either fully male or fully female) on your part and I don't know if you can do this or not. But, it is necessary if the two of you will find a way to stay happily married, where both your needs will be met.
Blah! I hate typing something like this in the TS section, because I know that many TSs do not believe in the idea there are varying degrees or different types of gender dysphoria.
Last edited by ReineD; 10-30-2012 at 02:27 PM.
Reine
This is not dumb at all. These are your feelings. This is about your marriage, the issues that make you uncomfortable in your marraige are for you to decide!!
Lots of guys shave, and i'm sure wives have different feelings over it..but now that you know WHY and what it means to your husband, it makes alot of sense that it reflects back at you something you are uncomfortable with.
You can't change how you feel. You can work hard to understand, you can be honest and open in communications, and you can let your husband explore alot more... if you are able to do that, you MAY change the way you feel, but if you don't you should never ever have to apologize.
I agree.
I would add, though, that when it comes to thinking about the future, thinking about what things "surely" would be like later, sometimes it works best to "let things slide" for a while and see how matters really turn out. For example there was a time when I would not have considered Going Out without a wig (wigs didn't thrill my wife); eventually wigs became of little importance to me as I grew more confident in myself. Feelings change (on both sides), and anticipating now what you would feel like in the future might not be productive.
Oh my, yes indeed.
The dumb risks I took to be out without being out. I was able to skip any one occasion but the drive just became stronger.
When the balance is found, there might not necessarily be much separation between male and female lives remaining. You might not have told your second cousins; and Steph might not go to work in a skirt or dress (but that might be eating away at Steph even as Steph lives with it as being a practical necessity.)
We can imagine any of hundreds of different scenarios that would fit the description of "when the balance is found". The importance is, if they both want to save their marriage, they need to genuinely get on the same page with this like my SO and I have, no matter where that balance is. For some couples like Kathryn and her wife it is transition. For other couples in the CDing section it is a DADT arrangements. WE know that DADT is not acceptable to Steph, and transition is not acceptable to Angie (and may not be acceptable to Steph), so there is a wide range of things that are somewhere in between the two.
If either Steph or Angie is not happy with the "balance" wherever it might be, then there is no "balance". But until they start working towards this they cannot determine where the balance will be and how they will feel as they move along, so it is useless to try to guess what either of them will want or might feel before they've even started.
Reine
Hi Steph and Mrs steph
Im saddened that your marriage may end because of what Steph may be going though. I suspect that this fog was fed unknowingly by the Mrs allowing her husband to go with his feelings from the beginning and steph taking full advantage of this generosity has now become an untamable beast.
Steph, picture this, if you decide to go this route and eventually dissolve your marriage because this desire has blinded you, when you get old and ugly like me and not beautiful anymore, things start sagging,leaking,aching,hurting and the desire can't be fed anymore, will you be happy being alone, being a transformed man and wishing you had your wife with you? You say you talked to an old girlfriend and she's looks like she'll accept you for who are. Not, women will never accept a man that dresses like a woman or wants to be a woman for a mate. Most of the women will tolerate it to a certain point if youre a loved one but not much more than that. You really need to think about it and make sure this is what you want.
Question is ...Will you sacrifice your desire for your wife and stay with her or not?
Thera
I was going to ignore you but at least get the person right. I didn't post this, someone else did.
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