Are we giving other false expectations if they want to go out in public?

[Marleena]

This thread is motivated by the do I pass questions we see all the time.

The Picture gallery is the main offender I think. It's a catch 22 there. If we say they look like crap we are insulting them and we'll get in trouble for sure, If we say they look great and could pass we give them false hope. Where are the beauty police when we need them?

Okay, first of all my first pictures were hideous and I'm glad I never asked that loaded question. I've gotten better with makeup and such but I know I will and have gotten read. I know what to expect. There are some pictures that just scream man in a dress though. I answered one once and mentioned her beard shadow needed work and the picture promptly disappeared..

Since we are a polite bunch our replies are usually positive. Who the heck wants to be a killjoy right? I have noticed that most of the girls do say be prepared to get read and I think that is the correct approach.

Your thoughts?

[Laura912]

Early on joining this group, I asked the question "how do you know how good or bad you look?". Post some pictures was the reply. If I really wanted to know, I would appreciate the honesty of the group to say good, bad, or no way-stay home. Who else to a judge than those here? But you are correct that all positive responses to a borderline look would not be helpful. Criticism, done well, is very helpful.

[Eryn]

In this case, the forum mirrors real life. Unless you're channeling Simon Cowell you're not going to say anything negative about anyone either on-line or FTF. The important information is either couched in nicer language or not said at all.

For example, nobody will say the classic "That top makes you look fat!" What they will say is "That top doesn't seem to flatter you about the waist." Rather than saying "Your eyeshadow looks like a hooker." one might say "That eye look would be great for the evening, but you might want to mute it for daytime."

And, let's face it, the folks who are not passable at all are painfully aware of that fact. They're posting here because this is one of the few places where they can express themselves and I'm going to support them. Celebrate the good, ignore the bad.

[AllieSF]

In answer to your question, I would say that we do not raise peoples' expectations about what will and does happen when going out in public. I understand the comments on pics and I usually do not comment except those occasional moments where the person, or the outfit, or the look gets my interest. If someone specifically asks for constructive comments and in my brief look at the pics and reading of the thread I think that I have something to offer, I may give constructive comments. I always try to be sensitive and use a diplomatic reply.

Now we get to the MtF CD's who really don't and probably won't ever really pass/blend, or whatever term we want to use, if they went out. To them I say if you have enough self confidence, courage, dress for the venue and time of day, there is no reason why that person should not also enjoy the joys of going out. I have a friend that has those characteristics, and contrary to my recommendation dresses very colorfully, sometimes too much in my opinion, and yet when we go out, both of us have a wonderful time and people talk with her as much as they talk with me. So, in my opinion, if you can own it, you can do it.

[Sarah Doepner]

If I am in any way similar to those who are asking advice on their appearance based on a photo or two posted here, I'm setting myself up. I take about a gazillion photos and pick the one or two that look the most feminine to post, rather than those that better represent how I really look. If we want honest criticism, we need to put up some of the other pictures rather than just fish for compliments. Along those lines, we should add a new acronym or two with the photos we post; JFFC (Just Fishing For Compliments) or BHIHTS (Be Honest I Have Thick Skin). ;-) The other option is to share constructive criticism in a private message. (PMMe)

[carhill2mn]

I agree that it is hard to tell someone that it is unlikely that they will "pass". I rarely respond to posts asking for an opinion as to how someone looks. A photo can be very misleading (both good and bad) as you cannot see the entire "package". If pressed, I will try to gently give some reasons as to why a girl might encounter some difficulties.

On the other hand, I am amazed at the photos of many girls who have been "out and about". Some have much more nerve,
courage, whatever than I do. It does make a difference as to where one is intending to be seen. A certain "look" at a club may be accepted but would not be at a store, restaurant or mall.

[Rebecca Star]

This thread is motivated by the do I pass questions we see all the time.

The Picture gallery is the main offender I think.

I started out telling everyone they looked pretty etc...etc.
However, I realised some people were posting pics and asking if they were passable, looked female enough to go out in public.

At that point, I decided to be totally honest and give my opinion. If giving someone a straight answer and it's not the answer they wanted, then my view is, don't ask the question to begin with.

That may sound harsh, but I do say what I think will get them clocked and if I know ways to soften down a feature which I think makes them stand out and not blend in, I'll include that advice too.

Is that wrong of me to do so? I think it's being helpful and in a way caring too.

I wont go into specifics because after all the photo/video section is a members only forum, hence privacy issues. However I recall one thread where someone was told they look passable only to get clocked in a ladies change room. This person I believe departed quickly and returned home.

Now, IDK about others, but I'd rather be told the truth than be lead up the garden path and then be out and confronted with something like this...

At 100 feet most of us are passable but up close and personal, well only a small minority here can successful pull that one off. Sad but true!

If someone is like me and only dresses at home then I'm going to take a totally different approach to that, than if someone is asking if their passable to go out in public.

[Jolene Robertson]

Marleena,
Great question and I agree... But. I also agree with the other responses. Unless something really catches my attention I usually do not respond. I have yet to go out, but I also know that when I do I'll be read by some if not a lot. Judging by some of the pictures on here of girls who do go out a lot and look fantastic (in my opinion) but still get read I guess we should all expect to not totally PASS. Just as Allie said "if you can own it, you can do it".

Jolene

[RenneB]

Great thread as it seems to be addressing a fundamental theme with CDrs in that they are trying to look, act, feel like a GG. However, as I have found out after being on this rock for half a century, that humans come in all shapes and sizes. There are a relative few that look, act, feel like the stereotypical male/female that we see in the media... Come on do you really run into the 'pretty' people in everyday life?

I'm not trying to be a killjoy here, but the thing that we need to focus on is confidence. To me that is 90% of what it takes to go out... the other 10% is in how you look, act, etc...

If commenting on someone's post or request for comments "how many times have they said ... oh be honest" ya right.

I don't ask if I pass or not, I post my pictures of me being out and about to improve confidence in others that may need that little push to stop sitting in front of the makeup mirror and just get out and see the world...

Yes, there are people out there who judge others... actually there are a lot. Then there are a few of those judgers that loudly verbalize there judgements... "OMG did you see how big that person was" or "you've got to be kidding me, you'd do that to your body". For those of us humans that don't meet the 'pretty' standard, we hear it.

Then again, I've heard of people judging the pretty people loudly also... "they've got so much money they've had things done to them" or "dang she's hot" followed closely by "hey babe wanna..." you know the rest.

As I remember one of the girls on this site saying "honey the only thing I have to pass is the front door"... That pretty much sums it up for me. Once I get past the front door I am out and about....

I'll admit, it took some time to get past the front door, but the world didn't stop and I didn't get beat up. Sure I've had my share of comments from the genuine "honey this dress would look great on you" to the "hey someone's looking good today" out of pickup truck...

I take it all in stride and just keep going... life is way too short to worry about a few comments....

Hope this helps....

Renne.....

[NicoleScott]

There's a lot more to passing than positive comments after presenting your best picture. But if you give an honest answer to an honest question, you're not responsible for the outcome.

[Jenniferathome]

The truth is never an insult if offered with the intent of helping. I am with you on this subject. Virtually every comment I read on the photo section is about how wonderful someone looks. I am so fearful for those who go out with the expectation of "I look like a woman" but are quite far from that ideal. I wish the women on the board would really chime in more often as they are far more objective and knowledgable on the subject of looking like a woman! The absolute worst judge of passability is a crossdresser. No one wants to hurt someone or crush their hopes but I think false praise is the same as hurting someone.

[LaLaChic]

When someone here asks if they can pass, they're not asking if they could win the Miss Universe pageant. I don't think there is harm in saying they can pass. It will give them the boost in their step that will actually help them pass.

[KellyJameson]

I would recommend asking someone who you trust in a private P.M because it would seem rather heartless to be publicly critical even when it is requested.

To be honest when you know you may hurt the person is a difficult position to be placed in if you have protective feelings for the person so you would want to shelter them publicly by offering opinions in private.

I worry that public support could harm the person by giving them false hope and expectations that could be brutally shattered once they step out the door.

For many it takes incredible courage to take that first step out the door and they initially are very vulnerable to negative responses particularly if they have been built up to think they appear to others in ways they do not.

I have a friend with a full beard who wears dresses out in public all the time and he says he passes.

When I stopped laughing and told him he was wrong he said I was wrong because I do not understand what he is trying to pass for which was to give honor to the feminine inside him.

Maybe he was correct, if you do not dishonor the feminine in you than you pass by being what is inside you, not by becoming what is outside of you which is not you but someone else.

Passing is a relationship to the truth of your own femininity which is a pure expression of the self by the relationship we have with ourselves.

It is a Zen experience of not having "to many minds" so you move beyond being self conscious of others to only being conscious of self.

[Wildaboutheels]

Honesty ain't always the best policy.

Most any man should be able to post PICTURES of themselves looking perfectly passable given a decent photographer who can mange the various angles, colors, lighting , cropping etc. that help make a "good" picture of anything.

But posting a nice looking pic online and passing yourself off as a live Female in public are two entirely different animals which is why I usually refrain from critiquing people.

I'm willing to bet that many of the outfits posted here would never be worn in public or the people posting pics of any sort have no intention of ever leaving their houses.

I truly wish EVERYone could take constructive criticism well but we all know that is never going to happen.

[jillleanne]

Marleena, I think anyone gender enhanced/tg should realize there are physical differences between male/female bodies that should help anyone accept the real possibility of being read, no matter how good they look, and being in the closet or out is irrevelant. Let's see now, feet size, throat/larnyx, jaw bones, hand size, height, shoulders, waist, hips, butt, hair and more. Sure we can mask alot of it with clothing, etc. but the reality is we are not women, and to completely pass as one would require some nifty magic. Did I mention speech? Has anyone coughed or sneezed in public? I have and nothing I can do will femininze those events. You are so correct in saying we are a polite bunch that reply positively and that's all fine and well. No one should expect to pass based on a pic posted on the internet. That simply isn't realistic. Like everything else, buyer beware.

[Kerigirl2009]

Why can't we just be honest as long as we are respectful and being that comment of a friend, even though we have not met. For myself I would much rather hearsomething like- "Hey Keri, I do not think you will blend in at all, maybe try a different foundation and a better quality wig" I don't want to be lied too just to try and save an ounce of feeling bad about how I look. I already feel like that anyway. JMO.
I think if a person asks for opinions they are willing to have both the good and bad said to them. I don't see people asking us to only give them positive opinions. LOL but they are nice to receive

[DaphneGrey]

The simple unpopular truth is that very very few people pass in the no one is going to read me sense.

[Barbara Ella]

Good thread, and a lot of the responses begin to sound alike, but they need to be said. Yes we are polite. i would rather have that than the other. It is always good to find something to compliment, and than propose solutions for the deficiencies. I have not posted a pic and asked if I pass. I know I do not, but i am a work in progress, and i just want to show others that if I can do what I do, looking like I do, than there is nothing holding them back from doing whatever it is they want to do, wherever they want to do it.

I would hope that we all want to encourage everyone possible to post pictures, and to not be made to feel badly. I have a feeling that most of us are realistic in our expectations.

Barbara

[TxKimberly]

For me, the catch is in what the poster themselves state when they post. If they ASK for an honest opinion and I think they look terrible, i will either keep my opinion to myself or tell them the truth as nicely as possible. I would not even consider making a negative comment if the poster didn't specifically ask for it.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Well, I have been on the record on countless occasions about my issue with the whole concept of passing, and making it the goal, so I won't delve into that because it's not the spirit of the thread, however,

If the language can be shifted more to "How do I look?" with the intent of honest answers, I think it is possible to give someone honest feedback without falsely complimenting them or without saying "You look terrible." The way to do that is to actually offer constructive criticism and advice, without the language of saying something looks terrible, but rather say what you recommend, and why. One time I posted on a different forum asking for advice on one of my man in a skirt looks, and someone responded that I was being really bland with my hair, but the way they phrased it was that I was making a real effort to have this interesting, alternative style with my clothes and then my head just looked sort of ho-hum, and it stuck out. Ever since then I have made an effort to style my hair when I get more dressed up and I think it has definitely improved my overall look.

[Kate Simmons]

If I make a positive comment in the picture gallery, I usually mean it. The truth is everyone should be prepared to be "read" when they go out en femme. How we handle that makes the difference along with our purpose for going out in the first place. Are we trying to fool other people or are we just enjoying being ourselves and having fun?

[lauren_m]

Good thread! I generally try to avoid commenting on the "passing" issue. I agree that's its basically impossible to evaluate someone's ability to pass based on a handful of pictures (though there are some girls that appear so natural in every picture they post that it's difficult to imagine them *not* passing). Of course, "passing" means different things to different people, and differs from situation to situation. Some girls are really beautiful, with outstanding features, but might not be truly passable because of a challenging attribute or two. Some girls might be less classically beautiful, and yet be more passable in their ability to blend in with the crowd. Some girls would not get a suspicious look while standing still, but haven't yet mastered natural movement; some might not attract suspicion from a certain distance, but are less prepared for interpersonal interaction; some might blend well overall but still be detected by those of us attuned to this kind of thing, or by those who tend to be critical of *every* girl in the area.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

I can say this is a great thread ... and Marleena has got it spot on .... what is wrong with being honest ... we all ask .."does my bum look big in this " .. and would rather be told the truth , so we all dont go out looking awful or not ... as the post says DO I PASS ... some do ..some dont ..but we are too scared or kind to say no ... i.think if you post a pic ... you could ask if there is anything to improve ok ... just my opinion ... xxxx

[Susan_Xdress]

Marleena - This is an important topic, and most of the thread seems to echo similar sentiments. ‘We all need encouragement’, ‘Who wants to be a killjoy’ etc. It reminded me of the deodorant advertisements some time ago with the hook line, ‘Even their best friends won’t tell them’. Yes, by the fact that this particular website is one of the most generous and supportive places in which we communicate, we all strive to encourage and give our support to each other. None of us wants to say, “Love the dress Babes, but you need to lose the five-o’clock shadow and you look like a guy in a dress … Well Hello .. We are all a guy in a dress.

Soooo as I once remarked in another thread, I do believe we unintentionally set some of our members up for a fall. (My earlier response dealt with those who always council ‘be honest with yourself, tell those nearest and dearest and all the guys at the factory that you can’t wait to get home and put on a dress and high heels ) … and we all know, or should know, that declaration can destroy your life.

Therefore, should we tell our members that they all look great and to go out there and experience ? … We all know the deadly dangers out there. So where am I going with this .. I think for those who cannot truly pass, then dress at home and be happy with that, or go out to a club that caters to our needs, and five-o’clock, shadow and a voice like Darth Vader be damned. Just enjoy the total thrill of being out dressed. …. SAFELY.

I believe, I have passed successfully for some years .. However, I keep in my mind always that I am not a woman and never will be a woman; I am just a guy who likes wearing a dress and loves to emulate a woman. Is it always successful ? .. For the most part yes, but there must be times when someone has looked at me sideways and wondered …

Ah my friends … it is never as simple as giving false hope, or dashing dreams … for me … it comes down to safety, safety, oh yes, did I mention safety. Therefore, common sense must always rule our expectations and our view of each other and ourselves.

[STACY B]

I agree with all of you ,,,, So that being said from now on Ill be personaly coming around from town to town an city to city place to place ,,, Riding my Bike or Walking ,, Or other meens of transportation ,,, An checking all of your handy makeup work in person ! An giving an forgiving my exspert advice To all who need it ,,No charge I do it becuz I love it . So no crying an being upset from now on,, Just get ready for the DOCTOR ,,, Oh I forgot to tell you I am not a real Doctor ,,But I do dressup an play one on the internet from time to time . An the phone ,,,