Think before you Post???

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Ok, I've been gone and haven't read the GG Thread or the single Poisoned Post mentioned here. But, I'm curious!

Why would ANYONE assume a person would take seriously just the ONE NEGATIVE post out of 109? No matter how tasteless it was? That makes no sense to me!

Sounds like a: Tempest in a teapot?

In a normal frame of mind, not many people, if any, would take one nasty post out of 109 seriously - but when a GG comes here, having just learnt of her partners' CD'ing, she isnt in a normal frame of mind, the chances are she is in a blind panic, stunned, afraid - there is a time and place for people to air their greivances with GG's but IMO that place isnt in reply to a newly arrived GG - at least we could give the poor woman a chance to get to know the place and find out that in fact, most of the people here are rather great!

I started this thread not purely on the basis of this one particular instance but because I've seen it a few times now - and Debglam's post above bears this out.

That's because your thinking rationally. This thread was a serious over reaction and a veiled attempt to call out a member.

it wasnt a veiled attempt at anything - I was putting my views across, which was, when I last looked, just as much my right on here as anyone else's. Judging by the further posts here, it seems there are others who agree with me. If you dont agree, that's also your right.

[Laura912]

RS it is a human trait that we will remember one negative amongst a hundred positives. Sometimes it is so difficult to remove the hurt caused by the negative despite all the support one can offer. When one is already sensitized to what may be considered an unusual situation, the wound takes longer to heal.

[Rebecca Star]

When I joined the GM section, I imagined that it would be a place where we could forget our femme sides and instead talk about blokey stuff. But it's not like that at all! So I tend not to post there anymore.

I'll say Ditto to that with a capital D!

Added:
I was going to zip my lip but then realised that zip broke a long time ago...

If we don't discuss issues, then nothing changes. Out of a negative we can hopefully build on this and make it a positive.
While I also agree the mods and admins do a great a job here and I understand they can't veto every post, it seems some posts are let slip when others are jumped on.

For instance, I have seen posts where they belittle, insult and effectively dish CD's. However, if a similar vein of post was said on another forum, other than the CD forum, I dare say it would jumped all over on and deleted.

Sometimes I feel that because I don't identify as a female, then I'm seen as a guy, and guys are generally expected to be manly, so these thing shouldn't hurt our feelings. IDK if that's the mindset, but sometime it feels like that.

[BRANDYJ]

Most of us take exception when women are put down, insulted or otherwise talked about in a condescending way. Especially the GG's on this site. We love them, and for some of us, our male protective mode is switched on. Being insensitive is one of those male traits that is hurtful, mean and ignorant.

[Tracii G]

I think I know the thread you are talking about but maybe I missed that one post.
The GG that posted the thread seemed to me to be interested in learning what her husband was going thru and was just looking for help.Most gave it from what I read.
The GG's here I respect so much and I tend to agree with most of them,not always mind you but most of the time.
I have to go with Doc Sherry and say the one bad apple theme fits here.

[MelanieB]

It's good to see the GG in question on the original thread has indeed returned .......good news!!.. glad to see she wasn't scared off for good.

However, I do feel we need to take care with new GGs who come on here looking for informaton, and comfort, to help themselves gain an understanding of what CD'ing is and what it involves in its multitude of different facets.

Afterall, if a GG is frightened away without any positive resolve to her understanding there won't be just one person with their life turned completely upside down, there will also be a husband CD'er who may well find his marriage at risk...or a husband whose Cd'ing needs get put to one side and not satisfied for the sake of retaining a "happy" marriage.

Not one but two peoples lives potentially in a mess, when the GG was at one stage doing her best to prevent these problems.....what is this forum for if not to help people in this situation.

[Foxglove]

Hello, SP! Excellent thread, and perhaps one that deserves to be a sticky.

It's raised a question in my mind, something that I've thought about before. Is this MTF forum really the right place for a GG to come to in order to get acquainted with CD/TG/TS issues? I ask for reasons such as are given in this post:

I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". . . I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved. Give her time to adjust and begin to understand that she and her SO are not alone before she even sees her guy in a dress! I see to many insensitive posts like this with our new GG's and there intro or first thread asking for help. You are not helping calling her husband a "SHE" .

All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way. But for a newcomer, it will be quite a culture shock. I can imagine that it might be upsetting for just about anybody. And I can imagine we might be somewhat insensitive to her because we don't realize that we are being insensitive. On this forum we're doing our own thing and might not fully realize in what ways it's not everybody's thing.

A month ago or so I came out to my son. I was thinking about referring him to this forum, but I decided not to. He's been used to seeing me in a certain role for a lot of years. Suddenly getting on this forum and seeing me in a totally different role, thinking and talking in a different way, it could be quite upsetting for him. (E.g., I told him that on this forum I have a female name, and he didn't even ask me what it was. He didn't want to know.) Cisgender people who are new to the transworld have no idea what's in store for them.

I'm not at all suggesting that GG's shouldn't be made welcome here. Of course they should, and anybody who treats them with disrespect is pretty shabby in my book. But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call? What I did for my son was to find a website and forum for children of trans parents. Whether he's ever followed up on that I don't know. But I thought it would be good for him to talk to people who are in the same situation that he is. And I'm wondering whether, for a GG's own good, she shouldn't start out by talking to other GG's to get an introduction to the transworld.

Just a thought.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[sterling12]

No argument, it was a very bad thing to do, and I suspect that particular respondent got punished for it. I would characterize The Response as someone trying to be flippant and cleaver, and remember we have a beloved member (But, not the perpetrator in this situation) around here who does that all the time! Perhaps that sends a message to others! Most of our members encourage her, and call for more. This Response was a very bad idea with someone so new, and I would hope that it's an anomaly that won't be repeated.

Please ladies, don't paint us all with a very large brush. Yes, there are times when we "just don't get it." We spent a lot of years looking at The World with a male perspective. But, we usually try and be supportive and empathetic. I think it's useful to remember that she got (so far) 108 informative and supportive comments. That means our Troll represents way less than 1%. In the future, we would like to see it come out ZERO!

I'd like to caution all members, new and old, "Be very careful with newbies!" "They are easily bruised, and can quickly be driven away." "It reflects badly on us, and the larger community of Trans People." "We lose, they lose, and we just don't need those kinds of hassles!"

Peace and Love, Joanie

[ReineD]

But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call?

Where else can she get answers other than in CD forums that have subforums for wives? I believe this is the largest one there is.

There is one site strictly for the partners of crossdressers, where CDs are not allowed to join. But, many of the members are non-accepting, and there is a dire lack of accurate information. I've posted on that site a few times to say that not all CDers are selfish, fetishistic, cheating boozers. I was accused of being a CDer.

All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way. But for a newcomer, it will be quite a culture shock. I can imagine that it might be upsetting for just about anybody. And I can imagine we might be somewhat insensitive to her because we don't realize that we are being insensitive. On this forum we're doing our own thing and might not fully realize in what ways it's not everybody's thing.

It is not difficult for GGs to see genetic men being feminine, especially when they know they are in a crossdresser forum. Really, GGs get along well with anyone who is sensitive and nurturing. The difficulty is in seeing very macho attitudes hidden behind the pretense of being female. I'm not saying that every CDer on this site is this type of macho, but there are many posts where you can virtually see the testosterone flying out and these are usually the posts that are unkind and insensitive, or the posts that stereotype women.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

I can say that this has been a great forum ..it has helped me understand a few things and have made a few friends along the way .... GG will gain loads from here and the majority of the forum members i have read posts from have been nothing but helpful and open armed ...... xxxxx

[Foxglove]

Where else can she get answers other than in CD forums that have subforums for wives?

Well, I'd have thought that the Loved Ones forum would be a good place.

I'm not trying to sound unwelcoming to GG's. I'm just wondering if for their own sake it wouldn't be better for them to start with others in their own situation. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

There is one site strictly for the partners of crossdressers, where CDs are not allowed to join. But, many of the members are non-accepting, and there is a dire lack of accurate information.

When you say "non-accepting", I assume you mean non-accepting of CDing? Yes, that would make things difficult. As for accurate information, they'll get all sorts of information here, won't they? Hopefully they will get what they're looking for.

I don't know. Maybe there's no good solution to the problem. Or maybe this particular forum is the best solution. I do know that I didn't really like the idea of my son starting here. Knowing him as I do, I didn't think he'd much like what he found on this forum. This forum is basically for us, and I can well imagine that others might find it a bit overwhelming at first.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

Now im sure we dont want to go down the road of segregation ... this is not what this forum is for ....its for everyone .....xxxx

[Sandra]

But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call?

Well at least here she has a clean site to see not like the majority on the web.

Getting advice from different members can only be a good thing, it gives a wide range of experiences. GGs cannot answer all the questions that are asked, so what does a new GG do then where does she go? Here she has a wide range of the community to obtain advise and support.

Well, I'd have thought that the Loved Ones forum would be a good place.

What's the point of that, she can still read the whole board and all members can post in there.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

Well said Sandra ..... xxxxxxx

[ReineD]

I do know that I didn't really like the idea of my son starting here. Knowing him as I do, I didn't think he'd much like what he found on this forum. This forum is basically for us, and I can well imagine that others might find it a bit overwhelming at first.

Well, if you want your son to know what the CDing is all about both in a universal sense (all the different ways there are to CD) and what it means to you personally, then he should join, if he is interested of course. He may not like what he reads here, but if he wants to learn there really isn't any alternatives.

[Foxglove]

Now im sure we dont want to go down the road of segregation ... this is not what this forum is for ....its for everyone .....xxxx

Well at least here she has a clean site to see not like the majority on the web.

Getting advice from different members can only be a good thing, it gives a wide range of experiences. GGs cannot answer all the questions that are asked, so what does a new GG do then where does she go? Here she has a wide range of the community to obtain advise and support.

It's clear to me I'm not expressing myself well at all here. I'm not at all suggesting there should be any segregation. That's the last thing I'd want. And of course I think it would be good for a cisgender person to talk directly to transpeople to get their point of view. That's exactly what we transpeople need. Dialogue to promote understanding.

What I'm trying to say is that on this forum there's a lot of really "girly-girl" talk, and it wouldn't surprise me if a GG who is new to her husband's CDing might be overwhelmed at what she sees here. She might be wondering just how far her husband wants to go, etc.

So I was wondering if some GG's might initially be uncomfortable here. If they're not, that's fine with me. If they feel comfortable straightaway, so much the better as far as I'm concerned. I suppose I'm speaking purely from my own personal experience. I didn't think my son would be comfortable here. The fact that since I came out to him he's asked me nothing about TGism is an indication that I was right about that. But if nobody else fits into our situation, OK, I have no problem with that.

I think that if I were a GG, I'd want to go to other GG's first. But if GG's in general don't feel that way, I have no problem with that.

Annabelle

[Sandra]

I am of the opinion that it's no good sugar coating things, but being rude and inconsiderate is out of line.

Yes a new GG may be overwhelmed at first but with some weeding out and listening to those of us that live with this, and how things can be and how they can also work out then she will hopefully become more at ease and learn a lot.

[Foxglove]

I am of the opinion that it's no good sugar coating things, but being rude and inconsiderate is out of line.

I don't believe in sugar coating things, either. My son hasn't asked me any questions yet. When he does, I'll give him the truth.

But as an example, on the day I came out to him, I told him I dressed, told him what it meant to me, etc. But he didn't ask any questions about how I dress--what specifically do I wear, do I put on makeup, etc. Now it was clear to me that he was very uncomfortable with that. He was Ok with the idea of TGism in general, but some of the specifics bothered him a bit.

So it appears to me he needs some time to ease into the situation. I don't have to tell him everything straightaway. I can give him information as he asks for it. Don't sugar-coat it, be straight up about it, but let him take his time, go at his own pace as he feels comfortable. This is what I meant by the notion that some people might find our MTF forum a bit overwhelming at first.

Yes a new GG may be overwhelmed at first but with some weeding out and listening to those of us that live with this, and how things can be and how they can also work out then she will hopefully become more at ease and learn a lot.

Yes, I'd agree totally with this. And this is what I hope to achieve with my son. Hopefully some time soon he'll be more at ease with this. It's a lot to take on board. Let him approach it in a way that's comfortable for him.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I understand you're point, Reine. There are tons of examples of what you say, I won't argue that, I just don't think there is a sexist intent or meaning behind a lot of that. Usually I think it's more jealousy that women get to wear hose, heels, etc. and the yearning that a CD would have to wear those things may come across as sexist. I try to only speak for myself on things like this, and my attitude is more "why wouldn't women want to wear these things" rather than "women should wear . . ." if that makes any sense. (And yes, I know the answer to my own question.

Wow, what a great post! The whole thing rang true to me and I thank you for posting it.



Janice, I don't take it that Asche was accusing the forum of being sexist. It's just one thing out of many that is difficult to get rid of when one is socialized as a male and it might even be difficult to pin-point some of the more subtle, inculcated beliefs and attitudes as being sexist. I guess. This will not apply to everyone here, as Asche pointed out, and although few members here are blatantly sexist, others can still have subtly sexist attitudes. An example are the CDers who feel more feminine when they do housework or when they wear hosiery and heels, since housework no longer falls strictly in a woman's domain, and many women today don't wear hose and heels.

Also, I think the degree of sexism has abated with the younger generation. Genetic males born to women who believe in feminist ideals I'm guessing will think of women differently than someone who was raised say more than 30-40 years ago? I gather the person who made the comment we're all talking about is now retired.

[susan54]

Those of us who have been doing this for years should have a higher awareness of how things might appear when replying to a new member. One concern I have is that there seem to be a lot of people here (or maybe just a few who post a lot?) who are utterly convinced that there is an automatic progression from cross-dressing to changing gender by surgery. This nonsense is not helped by 'jokes' such as "What is the difference between a cross-dresser and a trans-sexual? About two years". We all have to accept that there is a great range of reasons for cross-dressing and avoid appearing to impose our own reasons on others. My only progressions have been in skill and confidence (and, I fear, the amount of money I spend on womenswear).

[Kaz]

In my post I mentioned emotional intelligence.

I am as guilty of 'firing off' as anyone. The MtF section is the default setting so anyone coming here arrives here. For me we need to do one of two things... we get wise and treat everyone on this thread as potential newcomers and as we would meeting anyone new in real life... OR... we establish a different thread for incoming members... a bit like Introductions, but a 'next level' and we set the rules there a little more aggressively... just a thought... classic consultant's advice... add another layer.. that will be $1000 please?

I find it personally unacceptable that arriving GGs are given a hard time. I also find it unacceptable that anyone with relatively few posts is given a hard time. people come here for help and support. For God's sake this should be a core value of the community that we support everyone who comes here for support?

Or am I just deluded and past my sell by date.... oh well...

xx

[Asche]

Taking a comment a bit out of context:

All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way.

Not all of us.

This is a petty common assumption here, but it's worth remembering that not all of the posters or lurkers here think of themselves as "girls," either. There's a silent minority here of people who just dress, without feeling in any sense female by doing it. There are all kinds of people here, and talking as if everyone is a certain way tends to discourage those who aren't that way from participating.

I think it's a useful -- and mind-broadening -- exercise to ask yourself how what you are doing and what others are doing might come across to people who aren't like you.

(Personally, I think it would be a dreadful bore if everyone were like me.)

[Asche]

I understand you're point, Reine. There are tons of examples of what you say, I won't argue that, I just don't think there is a sexist intent or meaning behind a lot of that....

I don't think that there is sexist intent, either (at least, not in most cases.) But you don't have to intend to be sexist to contribute to a sexist atmosphere. Like racism, etc., sexism is so pervasive that all you have to do to keep it going is to just keep doing what you've always done.

Sexist tropes are part of how we have grown up seeing the world and understanding ourselves, to the point that most of us aren't even aware of them. You think, that's just how it is. You have to make an active effort to see what you're doing and then act differently if you want to reduce your contribution to the sexism in the world.

And you have to recognize that some of the stuff that you've always thought was harmless isn't so harmless.

For instance, when people here ask "why wouldn't women want to wear these things [hose, heels, etc.]" despite the fact that women here and elsewhere have explained very clearly why not, it comes across as if their reasons and their experiences don't matter when measured against what (male) CDers like. Sort of like saying to someone who is allergic to peanuts, "I just can't understand why you don't like peanuts, they taste so good to me." And that is an example of sexism. Unintentional, no doubt, but it still contributes to a kind of sexist atmosphere.

[Badtranny]

What I'm trying to say is that on this forum there's a lot of really "girly-girl" talk, and it wouldn't surprise me if a GG who is new to her husband's CDing might be overwhelmed at what she sees here. She might be wondering just how far her husband wants to go, etc.

Oh this is an excellent point and I totally agree with Annabelle, though probably not for the same reason.

Why do CD's have two personalities? I realize that I might be a bad example, but when I was cross dressing I didn't have a feminine act. I've lamented the girly cutesie act by so many on this forum since the beginning. If my man came out to me as a CD, I would be anxious about it but if I was into him, than I would want to see it. If he came out prancing and mincing like a 7 year old at a tea party, it would be over. However, if he came out as himself and just trying to be graceful and comport himself in a more feminine way, than we might be able to work something out. Especially if he looks sexy in his little skirt. Or even better, he loves dressing up but he still stomps around like a lumberjack, that might be kinda hot too. I guess the main thing is, I would be freaked out if he wanted or had a fem identity, with a real name and femmy voice and mannerisms.

If I found out my big tough guy (that's how I like 'em) was hiding a secret life and giggling about her panty collection, I would be extremely supportive, but let's face it. That's not hot.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Asche, as I said in the part of my answer that wasn't quoted (not calling you out on that at all, just in case this sounds that way), I know the answer to my question. And you'll have to trust me that I know a lot about discrimination, intent, "sexist tropes" (I did have to look that term up, but it is similar enough to what I would have said) to believe me when I say know what I speak of. Do most members here look at the world through the eyes of a man? Of course they do. But sexist? Not even close. Go to any college football message board if you want to see what that's about. I know for an absolute fact that I don't have a sexist or racist bone in my body, I wouldn't survive in a family with three very strong-willed women (even if two of them are currently still in elementary school) if I were. But back to the original point: I just don't see the sexism that others might see when people say "i feel more feminine when I clean the house in a skirt, heels and hose." The same people say similar things when they wear yoga pants and a sports bra when they work out, talk about fixing the family car in a spaghetti strap top, or getting sawdust in their "cleavage" when they are doing carpentry projects. But as always, that's just my opinion and I recognize that I may be the dissenting view on this subject.

I don't think that there is sexist intent, either (at least, not in most cases.) But you don't have to intend to be sexist to contribute to a sexist atmosphere. Like racism, etc., sexism is so pervasive that all you have to do to keep it going is to just keep doing what you've always done.

Sexist tropes are part of how we have grown up seeing the world and understanding ourselves, to the point that most of us aren't even aware of them. You think, that's just how it is. You have to make an active effort to see what you're doing and then act differently if you want to reduce your contribution to the sexism in the world.

And you have to recognize that some of the stuff that you've always thought was harmless isn't so harmless.

For instance, when people here ask "why wouldn't women want to wear these things [hose, heels, etc.]" despite the fact that women here and elsewhere have explained very clearly why not, it comes across as if their reasons and their experiences don't matter when measured against what (male) CDers like. Sort of like saying to someone who is allergic to peanuts, "I just can't understand why you don't like peanuts, they taste so good to me." And that is an example of sexism. Unintentional, no doubt, but it still contributes to a kind of sexist atmosphere.