What the issue of passing in public comes down to

[michelle64]

I always carry the "item" needed in my purse when out should I have to resort to use of that "item"..its your safety and your decision so you decide whatever you may feel..if your out in a skirt and sporting a beard you can expect to get laughed at or a least stared at..i am a short guy with big butt and small head so passing was never really a concern for me..bottom line is i never could hit a baseball..some here simply will never pass so i say just get over it and may be find a "hobby" you are good at..kinda harsh but it is what it is..i fully intend to stay netral on this topic..but thats how i feel about it

[Holly]

Using Violet's scenario, I would have never put myself in the position for "the man" to have access to me in a threatening manner. How many GG's do you know that purposely put themselves in harms way? My rule of thumb is that if my wife won't go there by herself, neither will I.

As to the passing issue... far too many focus on the physical and neglect the mental. For me, sure I always want to look my best when I am out (which is just about daily). Today I had an appointment with a new optometrist. I wore a pair of shorts (it was 110 here today) and a modest top. I was made up and my hair was nicely done. Did the receptionist who greeted me know I was TG? Most assuredly. I made the appointment in my legal name and filled out the paperwork with it as well. Did she treat me any differently than the other clients who were there? Not at all. I am confident in my identity. Mentally I believe in Holly. I embrace her as me. And my experience has been that the more comfortable (confident) I am with myself, the more comfortable those around me will be with me as well. Most bullies (society) prey on those who they see as weak and/or afraid. In most cases it is our own doubts and fears that empower others tintimidatete us. By turning off the TV, the bully wins. But my telling the bully if he doesn't understand the program I am watching, that I would be happy to sit and explain it to him and engage him in a conversation, we both have the potential of winning. It's the approach I take... and it's worked so far.

[Julogden]

One lie for another?

When dressed as a man, prior to transition if we're TS, the vast majority of us go to great pains to hide the fact that we're a CD/TS/TG, a lie by omission. If we transition, we virtually always hide the fact that we weren't born female, and that's the new lie. We trade one big secret for another.

Carol

[Jilmac]

Very good analogy Violet, much food for thought.

[Ashley D.]

Good insight.
Acceptance is something I think everyone here would like to have from society.
But I'm afraid passing is one of the bigest problems society has with tg's.
The only time I had people show anger towards me was when a group didn't know I was tg and found out.
People don't like to be fooled and like to think they can always tell a man from a woman.
P.S. I work to pass for me and only me. I could care less what everyone els thinks.

[kellycan27]

When dressed as a man, prior to transition if we're TS, the vast majority of us go to great pains to hide the fact that we're a CD/TS/TG, a lie by omission. If we transition, we virtually always hide the fact that we weren't born female, and that's the new lie. We trade one big secret for another.

Carol

Really? Are we really hiding the fact or are we being true to ourselves? Are you one of those people who is of the opinion that in order to be born female one must have a vagina and a set of breasts?

[Silmaril]

I get it, Violet. Passing and Acceptance are two ways to interact en femme with the rest of the world. Of the two, passing is the only one each of us has some immediate control over (albeit more limited control for some of us than others). It's internal, and offers us the *possibility* of controlling the situation ...hence the power you wrote about.

Acceptance ( /tolerance?) is in the hands of those around us. I understand the perspective of those who have replied here that embracing passing keeps us living in fear of discovery, forced to play the game: "You're born a girl or you're born a boy ...and that's all there is to it." But I think you too acknowledged the cost of embracing passing as a strategy.

We have no control over being accepted/tolerated. That's a slow-moving shift we all wish the world would embrace. It's fair for anyone to argue that if we all walked out of the shadows and into the light, the force of our numbers would probably accelerate that change. But not all of us are in a position to be revolutionaries: some of us have loved ones who could become collateral damage; some of us are just scared ...with good reason, I think. I admire those of you who are fighting the fight for all of us.

But until the world becomes a more tolerant place, I think there's no denying Violet's point, which I take as meaning that Passing is power: for those who can wield it (and, again, we are all in different places on that), it has the potential to diminish the threat of being a victim and to put you in charge of the parts of your life you can control.

[Katrina Black]

Just put some porn on .problem solved all guys love porn

[tonixd]

Ok... The last time I entered this debate I almost had my head bit clean off by a fellow xd, but here we go...

Passing is pointless. Passing not only hides us, it allows our detractors to say "See! They're trying to deceive your children!"
I'm not saying shaving, makeup, even wigs are bad things, but people should know who we are, that we are trans/gender/sexual/vestite/whatever. It brings awareness to our cause, it helps us build solidarity, it will eventually give us political leverage to gain legal protections.

We NEED to be out. If we are not real, open, and honest with those around us (including that ass-hat at the mall), we can never hope to get our tushes off this forum and sit down at Starbucks around a cup of coffee like I know every one of you want to do.
We're all already bending gender over a table as it is. Why not stand up, pull our big gurl panties on, and say 'I'm a boy, I'm in a dress, I'm cute, I will me myself and damn the consequences!"

I am out. Ask me about my experiences. Maybe I'll start a thread...

We have no control over being accepted/tolerated. That's a slow-moving shift we all wish the world would embrace. It's fair for anyone to argue that if we all walked out of the shadows and into the light, the force of our numbers would probably accelerate that change. But not all of us are in a position to be revolutionaries: some of us have loved ones who could become collateral damage; some of us are just scared ...with good reason, I think. I admire those of you who are fighting the fight for all of us.

Two things...
1. Tell this to Martin Luther King Jr.
2. "If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do." - Mahatma Gandhi

[kellycan27]

Two things...
1. Tell this to Martin Luther King Jr.
2. "If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do." - Mahatma Gandhi

Your "cause" lacks cohesion and any type of concerted effort. Too many differences under the TG umbrella. Closeted types, weekend warriors. don't care, don't want the attention, scared, embarrassed, ashamed. And then there are those who want change, but are unwilling to help.

[the_shark]

I think you put that beautifully. Wonderful job Violet.

[Brittany CD]

For me personally, I crossdress for me, not for others. My desire to pass as a girl is predicated on the fact that I want to dress as a girl, which means to also look like one and not be a dude in a dress

[tonixd]

Your "cause" lacks cohesion and any type of concerted effort. Too many differences under the TG umbrella. Closeted types, weekend warriors. don't care, don't want the attention, scared, embarrassed, ashamed. And then there are those who want change, but are unwilling to help.

I know. It is sad. And it will come. It must. We cannot wait for others to stand up for us. We must do it for ourselves.

“Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”
― Barack Obama

[Julogden]

Really? Are we really hiding the fact or are we being true to ourselves? Are you one of those people who is of the opinion that in order to be born female one must have a vagina and a set of breasts?

Assuming you've had reassignment surgery, then you're female as far as I'm concerned, but not exactly the same as females who were born female, as genetically, you would test as male if one were to give you the karyotype test. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

What I was talking about is that unless you're one of the rare TS's who are open about who they are, you're hiding the fact from most people that you were born genetically male, a lie by omission, and one that may be necessary for you to live your life successfully, and there was no judgement intended in my previous posting.

The fact that you weren't born physically female is the big issue that you've been dealing with all your life, right?

Carol

[Barbara Ella]

Passing vs Acceptance is an excellent topic for discussion, and this is a good thread. Couple of faults in the analogy presented. A man invades my home he is dropped dead, as Karren brilliantly pointed out. Simple legal solution. However, when we try to pass, we are invading their space (meaning the public). Totally different. In our situation we can only hope that the people we meet are socially adjusted, and passing vs. acceptance is merely a social factor. Agreed, acceptance is desired, but it is something we have no control over. going out with no intention to blend or pass is just sticking it in someone's face, and their reaction is to be expected, just as appropriately as me dropping the intruder into my home. If we attempt to pass or blend (attempt is the key word in this whole thought exercise) we show we are making the effort to not intrude ourselves into their space, and their reaction will be muted somewhat.

I truly believe everyone should do what they want, whether it is blending or just getting in someone's face. Just don't make getting in someone's face a better scenario than someone who is blending or passing and in a roundabout way making the public feel better about those of us who are out there and are not threatening their space.

One action deserves no more praise than the other. We all just need to keep doing what we do without making each other feel bad about what they do.

Love, Peace, Barbara

[Tracii G]

Being a guy in a skirt isn't so bad but you need to be ready for all that comes at you.
Some just can't be as bold for reasons only known to them and I would not be one to push them into doing something they don't want to do.
Our numbers are so small and to think we as guys in dresses can change peoples opinions is just not going to happen.
Maybe one or two in your lifetime but the general masses not a chance.
I bend the genders all the time and people do say wow you're a guy and you aren't afraid to wear womens clothes in public?
I tell them I choose to be me and not hide who I am.
Have I helped the cause? who knows I have not been trying to.
People will be themselves and you need to be at least respectful and not scream out I'm different and you better like it.

[NathalieX66]

In Karren's terms , your house is your castle...you dictate the law.

In the public spectrum, there is merely a mutual acceptance between you and the other party , a la the Golden Rule™. A small few idiots don't agree with this, and feel that they need to dictate through some kind of vigilance. I never had this happen to me yet.

Last week, I was in an extremely crowded Tex-Mex restaurant wearing a floral dress, with a dear friend of mine who is transitioning and she puts me to shame in "passibility", plus a pretty ordinary married couple. No one even looked at me. I cannot tell for sure I really pass, and I probably never will know for sure. The waitresses just kept feeding us frozen margheritas, and we all made it home alive. The night was fun.

Today was like any other day. Hot & humid, but I needed to do shopping(supermarket, CVS, Barnes & Noble). Not needing to go en femme or fully as a woman, I just went as my typical self, which these days is shoulder length hair, a pair of cubic zirc earring studs, womans' jean shorts which are above the knee, a gender-neutral V-neck T shirt, flip-flops, epilated legs, and metallic red toe nails. My beard is pretty much gone because of all the laser & electro, and I look more feminine. Three years ago, I would never have done this because of my own internalized fears.

The reality is I feel much more myself, and people see the confidence this exudes before they make a judgement of whether this guy is some kind of sexual nut case. The positive reactions when I'm dressed as female far exceeds the negative reactions.
I also have a sense that since I started going out in public in my own hair instead of the wig sinmce Superbowl Sunday 2012 , that people know that, as a transgender person, I mean business. I am percieved as transgender...something I am not ashamed of.

[Violetgray]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses ladies! I haven't had a chance to look at them all yet but I promise I will. If you all are going to spend your time paying attention to the thread then it's the least I can do. I have read enough to address one issue that stands out, however..

There seems to be trend of, "If that guy comes in my house and threatens me I'll shoot him!" Since we understand that the Big Burly Man is a metaphor for society, then what you're saying is that you're willing to shoot all of society dead. To be fair, some people solve the problem by eliminating society altogether by dressing up alone in a hotel room secluded in a room. But solving the problem by getting rid of society is the implication.

[NathalieX66]

Violet, I do not own one single firearm, but I would love to own a working firearm such as a kit-built muzzle loader 17th century French marine musket just for fun.
There is a fat hickory baseball bat that I keep not far from my front door just in case.

I will most likely die from a skydiving accident, or drowning in the ocean, or car accident before I catch an actual bullet, but hey you never know.

[Contessa]

I will never understand what some mean by they can never pass. Although my post never get read, or commented on like the one that sits alone in a different forum, I still need to reply to this thread LOL. Why do some believe they can't pass. All have all the info they need to get every thing it would take for them to pass. Meaning it takes more than just putting on the dress. Sitting in the closet is not going to get anyone any acceptance in society. Being out in society will. I don't know what any of you look like as a man, as those who chose to place a pic of themselves on this forum look like women to me. If all of you drive cars to everywhere you go, try some public trans portation. Try becoming some of society and see how you react to everyone you see. I really mean everyone that you look at. I think that even every woman doesn't pass. Every man does not have to accept his fellow man, but he or she can. I accept all, if you can't what does that say about you. This above all to thy own self be true. May I ask why you can not like what I watch or why we can't watch something you like to see if I like it. You have to understand that as I am in my home my door is unlocked and sometimes open most will knock as they would want anyone to do at their own door. I still think that some let fear rule their lives instead of loving all their fellow man. Do you think fear keeps you safe.

Sorry to type so much but no one reads it anyway.

Tess

[docrobbysherry]

But Doc, if you don't get out and take some verbal abuse and maybe get beat up, you're not doing your part for "the cause".

U make a very good point, Nicole! Since I'm one of those that can never pass, it's my DUTY to get out there and take one for the "team"! Rite?

I mean, it's kind of pointless to have passing CD/TSs out there. Because no one can tell they're GMs! So, it's all up to us non-passers! In that vein, I've been working on sprinting in my 5" heels. My times r improving every week!

But, why should WE have to take the brunt of the public's anti-CD wrath? C'mon u passing dressers! Shake 'em up a little! Try going out without your wigs! Or make up! Or forms! Not only will u know how us closet dressers feel out, but you'll be helping THE CAUSE!

(For those of u that DIDN'T get it, this was a tongue in cheek post!) Blame, Nicole! She started it!

[noeleena]

Hi,

First off id have our Police around to sort him out . two i wont be told what to do by a stranger. He may be bigger & stronger Ill take him down , I did learn a few moves years ago how to do that,

If that applys to socity . in the way you mean then why does socity go along with me then.why am i accepted. maybe we are more open here,

As to passing or blending in i dont have any issues with that because i dont blend in or pass & never will because of being female /male at birth,I dont hide behind the wigs or make up. dont wear one or use makeup just lippy & eyebrow liner. so my face shows my masculine features,

other wise im just a normal woman ....well i think i am....sort of .

If you can not be accepted for who you are then there's other problems that need to be looked at. are we looking at friends or some of the many people you see or pass on the street,

You wont different well i am because i wear my Renaissance garb down the street in full view of some 200 people many i know some i dont yet i get good comments like whats the occasion just showing off some of my clothes iv made.
Plus on the Planes over in Austraila, some good air time,

Is that about passing sure not blending in im way out like some 500 years dress wise.

I think we need to look at our selfs & what we do , this wont apply to me ......Are we afraid of our selfs to be who we are, ???......

...noeleena...

[michelle64]

last thing i want to see is some ugly dude wearing a dress in the mall..it just aint going to work that way..hate to say it but some do need to stay in the closet--my take..

[Michelle (Oz)]

I will never understand what some mean by they can never pass.

Tess - I will never pass as a woman. Why? I have the face and body of a man and it's been that way for 60 years. Look closely at me, hear me talk, add arthritis which impacts how I walk - all dead give aways.

So my objective is to blend, i.e. do what I can to appear without close inspection female and don't draw attention to myself. Even though I have had a number of reactions as I walk by, I have never been embarrassed. I do take care where I go though.

Therefore, passing or not passing is for me academic - I have no choice.

What I do admire is those who venture out like Nathalie posted without the disguise of makeup,etc. Love to do that and not care but doubt that will happen in my lifetime.

Michelle (Oz)

[Michelle (Oz)]

last thing i want to see is some ugly dude wearing a dress in the mall..it just aint going to work that way..hate to say it but some do need to stay in the closet--my take..

At least we are in different countries so I'd like to think that I'm not the person you are talking about.

That said, why should this person feel any less 'pretty' (sorry Kimberly) than someone who is genetically blessed and can pass?

Michelle (Oz)