Is it really double standards ?

[*ROXY*]

A question to Male CD's complaining about double standards.

I've read a lot of these comments on other threads and just wanted to query it without hijacking someone's story.

Right, picture the scene, your girlfriend or wife, who you've known for years tells you she wants to dress as a man most of the time. She wants to wear no make up, apply fake stubble or facial hair, bind her breasts, let her leg and armpit hair grow wild, cut her hair short, something down the y-fronts to emulate a penis. If she went out like that, there's a chance she'd pass as a man but if everyone knew she was a GG would they go - hell yeah that's fine, nothing odd there at all ?? really ?? I sincerely doubt it.
I'm not bringing transgendered individuals into this as they are not doing it for thrills/comfort/stress relief whatever reason us crossdressers choose to do it.
Can you honestly say you'de be great with that ?
Please don't think I'm saying women shouldn't be able to cut their hair short or wear mens clothes, grow armpit hair, it's personal choice. But when it becomes about emulating a man rather than just wearing male clothes it changes peoples perceptions.
There are two points to this.
1) Women who try to present as men FTM crossdressers if discovered to be would just as much be noticed as a man wearing a dress
2) Don't think you're all hard done by and assume it's all shits and giggles for women too, they are often judged unfairly on appearence, weight, height when wearing their own clothes let alone those of another gender.
I know personally that if my wife decided she wanted to do this I'd have to think long and hard about my relationship which I know she did with ours when I came out to her last year.
I've been massively fortunate that she is accepting of it, I can dress, wear makeup, wigs etc if I want, when I want. I've not ventured out yet but that may not happen.
It's easy to take the 'why is it alright for women to wear jeans and shirts' line but honestly mens clothing isn't massively distinctive from female counterparts of the same item. Jeans cut will be different and not hang as well, shirts un tailored just the same as a man wearing boyfriend cut womens jeans wouldn't stand out in crowd.
Am I the only one who feels this ?

[kimdl93]

I agree with your point on the so-called double standard. Many CDrs confuse the issue in their own minds. Of course we would like to be accepted without judgement when we wear womens clothing. But the usual argument - women can wear jeans and nobody complains - or variations of that theme, just misses the point. Women generally aren't wearing jeans for the expressed purpose of looking men. If anything, they often wear jeans in a manner that accentuates their femininity.

by contrast, there are of course women who want to present as male. I know that they face the same kinds of prejudice and stereotyping that we face.

[Dena]

I also agree! A feminine woman in men's clothes can be sexy, a masculine man in women's clothes is not sexy.

[Saffron]

So when a woman accentuates her femininity by using make up, padded bras or even plastic surgery, is not the same?

[EllieOPKS]

You make a great point. When you look at it from the other side of the fence you more less say WTF? I can easily see where others would have the same thoughts about cross dressers.

[katie_barns]

. Right, picture the scene, your girlfriend or wife, who you've known for years tells you she wants to dress as a man most of the time. She wants to wear no make up, apply fake stubble or facial hair, bind her breasts, let her leg and armpit hair grow wild, cut her hair short, something down the y-fronts to emulate a penis. If she went out like that, there's a chance she'd pass as a man but if everyone knew she was a GG would they go - hell yeah that's fine, nothing odd there at all ?? really ?? I sincerely doubt it.

You make a very valid point. I don't believe I would want to be married to Miss Butch. But women and men are held to completely different standards.
I ask that you clear your mind of todays standards and consider the pre-women's lib days. Women wore only dresses. Never left the house without presenting themselves in the most feminine light. Men of that time would never in a million years consider todays women, real girls. Your description above and a man's reaction are basically the way men of yesteryear would view todays women.
Women have been fighting for almost 70 years to dress and be treated as equals to men. So why do men have to be held to standards 100 years old. Mens minds have been conditioned over the years to accept women as equals in all aspects of life.

Woman can be conditioned too!


To address your other point. If it was totally ok for men to wear dresses and makeup there would be no need to emulate a woman. When I am out presenting as female I do so because it is unacceptable for me to be out dressed like that unless I was female. Yes it is more than the cloths for me. I like letting the feminine part of me out and the clothing is a major part of it.
Maybe 70 years from now it will be acceptable for men to dress in feminine attire without blinking an eye.
At that point we will all be androgynous and the only difference between men and women will be our sex organs.
I am all for the Mens Liberation Movement

[JohnH]

Men need to come up with masculine conventions with makeup, dresses, heels, etc. so they can wear those garments in a masculine context the same way as women have come up with feminine conventions for wearing pants. Why should a man have to "pass" as a woman to wear a dress?

John

[Karren H]

I'd call a divorce lawyer if she did that..... but I don't consider that to be a double standard because unlike many others I don't not blame my wife for not liking my crossdressing.... I totally understand her feelings and feel the same way... ergo no double standard!

[KellyJameson]

There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

Think of what is more objectionable, a man walking down the street naked or crossdressed because the reaction by others will be based on the interpretation of the "why" he is doing this

I think it is wrapped up in sexuality where a man emulating a woman is seen as doing it for sexual reasons so it is reacted to as a perversion where it is not seen as
sexual when a woman emulates a man in that she could become sexually aroused by it

A heterosexual male that mistakenly and momentarily is attracted to what he thinks is a woman but realizes is a man could become angry if it threatens his self image that is bound up with how he expresses his sexuality.

Sexuality and masculinity (image of self as how "manly/masculine) are self reinforcing just as they are for femininity but what threatens femininity is not what threatens masculinity so a womans sense of self worth as a woman will not be threatened by making the mistake of being attracted to what she thinks is a man
but is actually a woman.

It does not go to her core identity because she does not use sex to establish her sense of self but instead to experience what is already there, where a man will
build his identity through his sexual behavior.

Women and men come at sex from opposite places in relationship to their identity.

Identity, sex and self is experienced very differently between the sexes but those on the TG spectrum seem to have the capacity to plant one foot in each world
so naturally express this experience causing great consternation from those who do not experience this and so have a difficult time understanding it.

What appears to be double standards goes much deeper because it is a conflict of similar energies in that someone who crossdresses carries the energy usually found in a biological female so the relationship will fail or there will be conflict until you find someone who is not repelled by and is attracted to your energy which is why being honest will protect you in that you will have short term pain but
avoid the long term pain of throwing your life away.

If you hide this energy (who you really are) than when it makes its appearance as it must because it is real and not what you have been trying to make real by acting instead of "being" there is going to be alot of pain to go all around.

Sexuality serves the energy you carry inside so what you are sexually attracted to is the expression of this energy and you cannot go against it without psychological
consequences that harm the self and others.

It makes perfect sense that most females will not be attracted to men who crossdress because the energy the person is expressing repels them because it is to similar to their own and they want the opposite which men intuitively understand and that is why many act "manly" to attract females.

This energy is primal and touches everything, it is always around us and we swim in its currents whether we like it or not.

[KlaireLarnia]

I personally believe that society has a problem when someone tried to be something they are blatantly not. Be it a man presenting as a woman or a woman presenting as a man. Whether we like it, society is split into male and female. We don't cross and play at being the other. If we want to do that - we have online games and social environments to do it.

There is no double standard. As I posted recently if my wife came to me and said she wanted to dress a man and be called "Bob" from now on I would freak out, have a mental and be ready to bolt out the door tomorrow morning if not sooner. And if I was to turn round to her and say I wanted to present as a woman and be called "Klaire" from now on I would expect a hard smack to the face, a good kick in the nuts and her to be out of the door faster than I could recover from the pain.

I think we as people can accept dressing in most forms but the role reversal to the degree of presenting as the other sex is never going to get accepted by the majority of society. As I am always male no matter what i wear or do, my wife sees my dressing as "one of my quirks" and deals with it. As long as it says like that she is happy to keep me in line with a few rules and we live on happily and very much in love. Suits me.

[Gena Gurl]

Vanessa, I agree with you. I think that when a woman wears a shirt and pants she doesn't want's to be a man, in fact I think they do it for comfort. Think about it, more likely they're wearing panties amd bra, maybe even their make up and heels they're still very femenine. They do not change their names to John, Steve or Jack. They do not change their manerisms and voice. They do not join web sites where they talk about their need for beards, mustaches and their junk. I never saw my wife just because she was wearing pants take the trash out, want to pick up a wrench and fix the car. That's not to say that there are not a few women that woul do that, but it would be a much smaller group. This said, when I put on the panties bra, hose, heels wig make-up and all that goes with dressing up, guess what? I do want to be and look like a woman. and that my friends that's the difference. I do not believe there's a double standard, and is just an excuse to justify what we do (And there is nothing wrong with it) it's just different. If you don't believe me ask any GG. Thanks Gena.

[reb.femme]

There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

I'll say. Fully dressed in a motorway service area last night, a guy looked at me, read me straight away and couldn't get away quick enough. No words, but the face displayed a thousand words. Pure disgust and plainly nothing else.

Rebecca x

[NathalieX66]

I'll say. Fully dressed in a motorway service area last night, a guy looked at me, read me straight away and couldn't get away quick enough. No words, but the face displayed a thousand words. Pure disgust and plainly nothing else.

That's because people are trained to think a certain way.

it's ironic that, here in America , in many restaurants waitresses wear the same uniform as the waiters. This is a Tuxedo!........Something the men wear at a wedding while the women wear bridal gowns.

[KlaireLarnia]

There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

When was the last time you saw a woman emulating or passing as a man? I don't mean wearing male clothes, I mean physically trying to pass - clothes, short male hair stubble, package down below etc? Not being critical but most women who dress in male clothes - or more normally in female versions of male clothes - are not trying to emulate women, just trying to put them on an even playing field with men. There is a big contrast between wearing the other sex's clothes and trying to emulate the other sex. I have been on this planet for just under 40 years and you know what, I reckon if I have seen 5 women trying to emulate/pass as male - I may have over estimated that figure. Flip the question over to how many men emulating women and I would be a lot higher I can tell you!

That's because people are trained to think a certain way.

it's ironic that, here in America , in many restaurants waitresses wear the same uniform as the waiters. This is a Tuxedo!........Something the men wear at a wedding while the women wear bridal gowns.

I have a question an it relates to my point above. In that image it is not clear (and I don't know where it came from so cannot see a larger version) but does the woman's jacket and shirt button up in the same direction as the man's? Why is that important because if it doesn't she is wearing a female one and not a male one. In a smart restaurant that is just about presentation and giving a business like service that is expected, but she is not emulating a man, just presenting herself in a very specific business way so everything is formal. I used to work for an Insurance company in the UK, when our main client came in, the women where expected to wear formal suits (i.e jacket and trousers - not skirts) as that is what the client expected to see in our call centre and that is exactly what they did see - everytime!

[NathalieX66]

Klaire, there maybe a feminine cut to her uniform in my photo, but I've seen plenty of examples on women where this is not the case.
We have an epidemic of unisex polo shirts for uniforms in the US....and may I say the UK too, as well. I took a train from London to Gravesend, Trent about three years ago, and the woman who was collecting the tickets was wearing a "Southeastern Rail" polo shirt .

[Lorileah]

I'm cool with it. I know what's under those clothes. She could wear what she wants. Now if she starts watching football with her hand down the front of her pants and quits shaving her beard...that is the end

[Tara D. Rose]

When was the last time you saw a woman emulating or passing as a man? I have been on this planet for just under 40 years and you know what, I reckon if I have seen 5 women trying to emulate/pass as male - I may have over estimated that figure.!

I have seen women out in public many times obviously trying to pass as men almost everyday that I go out and about town. Nobody gives them any looks of disgust. I sometimes point them out to my wife when we're out. But I do say to my wife, look around, no one doing a double take at them, no one acts disgusted towards women that are obviously presenting as men. Go to any large shopping mall and sit for a while, and you will see them. They walk freely out in public anywhere USA, without a problem. I don't have a problem with them at all. But they can do what we CD's can't do and that's go anywhere without fear of being laughed at out in public.
Tara

[TeresaL]

An eye opener thread for sure. What would we really do? Hmmm. My SO actually postured the same question, and it did throw me for a loop. I guess I wouldn't be very happy. But we did it to them, and that is hard to shake. For that most of us are truly sorry. I wasn't too depressed today until I saw this post and got to thinking about it.

Well, what can we do to make it up? Where do we go from here? We are stuck in a rut sometimes. And we've stuck our SO in a rut as well. What a travesty that was put upon us. My apologies, this brought me down for a bit Somehow though, things will get better. Glad I will see a therapist Thursday. Maybe (s)he can help both of us. It's long over due.

As for right now, I'm getting off the computer for a while, and am going to sit beside my wife -- maybe talk, maybe touch. She deserves much more.

ADDENDUM: being that I am transgender, I would accept her of course if she turned up and announced she is FTM. But I'm still going downstairs to spend the evening with her. I'm thankful that things aren't at the crisis level that they were when I first signed up.

[sissystephanie]

I'll say. Fully dressed in a motorway service area last night, a guy looked at me, read me straight away and couldn't get away quick enough. No words, but the face displayed a thousand words. Pure disgust and plainly nothing else.

Rebecca x

This is really quite interesting. I have been CD'ing for over 60 years, and have spent a lot of time out in public as Stephanie! My late wife knew that I was a CD when we married back in the mid 50's, and always did my makeup and fixed my wig when I went out in public because I was not very good at either! When she died 7 years ago, I decided to try going out dressed enfemme but looking like the man that I am. I have been doing that for 7 years now and have never had any comments made or even a "dirty" look!! There may be a double standard, but I have not seen evidence of it. And I live in the deep South, in what is regarded as real "Red Neck" country!

[Veronica27]

The male versus female dynamic is full of double standards, but the taboo against male crossdressing is not one of them. For examples of traditional double standards, simply review the rules of etiquette or such conventions as the man paying for the date, proposing marriage with the gift of a ring, or the rule "women and children first" in a tragedy. These double standards have loosened up considerably since women's liberation, but they still exist in many respects.

The variety of clothing options available to women compared to men is not an example of a double standard so much as it is just a reflection of modern style and fashion trends. There were eras in which the men were far more flambouyant than women. But the options available to women, even those that reflect similarity to traditional male wear, is not crossdressing in the generally accepted meaning of that term. As many have mentioned, crossdressing implies emulation of the opposite sex, not simply wearing their clothing. Many young girls try to not only dress like their male counterparts, but also to behave like them, talk like them and do many of the same activities. However the one thing they seldom do is attempt to be them, or have others think they are male. The typical crossdresser, on the other hand, even if he is not transgendered, still tries to "pass" as a woman with bra and breast forms, wig, makeup and mannerisms. Some, like Stephanie, make no effort to "pass", but they constitute a rather small minority of crossdressers, unless you take into consideration deeply closeted dressers who may only partially dress.

If it suddenly became fashionable for men to wear dresses or makeup or long hair styles or 6" heels it would not turn those that take advantage of the increased variety of options into crossdressers. They would merely be gaining an increase in one area of equality. It could reduce the amount of actual crossdressing that takes place, however, in several ways. If the prime motivation is the wearing of dresses and such, the newfound freedom would eliminate the need to fool anyone. For others whose motivation is the mystique of escaping into the forbidden world of femdom, the thrill might be lost by the easy availability of simply putting on a dress.

Veronica

[Jamie001]

Men need to come up with masculine conventions with makeup, dresses, heels, etc. so they can wear those garments in a masculine context the same way as women have come up with feminine conventions for wearing pants. Why should a man have to "pass" as a woman to wear a dress?

John

There should be no need for a "masculine convention" to wear the feminine items. If they attempt to masculinize then we will have clothing in black, brown, blue and gray, basically the same colorless palette that currently defines the majority of men's clothing. There was a time when a man could only wear white shirts and black ties. Men should have the same options in fashion but optionally cut for men's bodies. That means that if a man wants to wear pink capri pants, they should be available. Pumps and other women's shoes should be made in larger sizes for males.

This is really quite interesting. I have been CD'ing for over 60 years, and have spent a lot of time out in public as Stephanie! My late wife knew that I was a CD when we married back in the mid 50's, and always did my makeup and fixed my wig when I went out in public because I was not very good at either! When she died 7 years ago, I decided to try going out dressed enfemme but looking like the man that I am. I have been doing that for 7 years now and have never had any comments made or even a "dirty" look!! There may be a double standard, but I have not seen evidence of it. And I live in the deep South, in what is regarded as real "Red Neck" country!

I agree and have had the same experience as Sissy Stephanie. The difference is that Stephanie and I simply wear women's clothing as a male and don't attempt to deceive that we are a woman. We are simply feminine men wearing women's clothing. I am usually wearing capri pants. women's sandals, and bright red nail polish. I don't attempt to pass. I am just a feminine male and I am fine with that.

[Marissa]

I'd call a divorce lawyer if she did that..... but I don't consider that to be a double standard because unlike many others I don't not blame my wife for not liking my crossdressing.... I totally understand her feelings and feel the same way... ergo no double standard!

So you walking in with a full length dress with lovely heels is not a reason for her to run for a lawyer????? Its not a question about her liking your cding..but how would you feel?

Sorry, I have to add that if you are in a relationship, you have to be mindful of your SO.. acceptance, variance or whatever.. the fall out may be unknown, but you have to accept it.. I would hope that both parties find a median that works.. and I so love it when both can accept..

[Beverley Sims]

Double standards? When the shoe is on the other foot, you do think about it.
I sometimes think others should think about it more often.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Vanessa, If life was really fair it probably wouldn't be any fun.

[Angela Campbell]

It is a double standartd in the case of society. For instance. If a woman dresses like a man people look and just think she is being comfortable. A woman looks and makes a check mark in the column of "I look better" A man sees her that way and thinks ..."no she doesn't look so good but I wonder what she looks like naked.
If people see a man dressed like a woman the either think ...look a weirdo, or they laugh whether they be a man or woman seeing the cd.

If a woman is in a store and buys mens clothes or mens underwear no one thinks a thing. If a man is in the store buying womens clothes or underwear it is a major deal. Some think he is a perv others think he is weird.

I do think slowly it has moved to a better direction but it is going very slow.........Remember the 60's (showing my age huh) the beatles with the long hair was scandalous at the time...but look at the pictures, it was not very long at all. Barely touching the ears. Now hair down to the waist is not even noticed anymore. A man can wear a necklace or bracelet and it is ok. But that is about it for the times now. Maybe one day it will be a big fad for men to wear skirts or use makeup, you never know.