Is it really double standards ?

[Girliegirl]

Don't forget about the environment that kids are brought up in. girls who are more masculine in looks and behavior are nothing out off the ordinary. But boys are forced to repress their feminine sides for their entire lives. I never let any feminine tendancies out as a child. Adult women have no issue announcing to the world that they were tomboys as children, men do not share that ability to be able to announce to coworkers or buddies our anyone in passive conversation that they used to be "sissys" (for lack of a better word) as children. little suzy can run with the boys and and toss a football all day, but when little john starts applying nail polish there will be no end to the ridicule. Does anyone wonder of you weren't repressing those feelings as a child and you were able to pick out a cute hairstyle and have your nails done with mom, as a kid, that things might be more evenly balanced for you today as far as your comfort with your natural gender full time?

[thewife/soon2bex]

I've read these and was a little surprised by some of the reactions. Talk about double standards! So, if your wife were to say they would want to switch and dress as a man you would have issues??? Isn't that what you are expecting her to accept in you? Where is the double standard in this? Just my thoughts..

[Marleena]

I've read these and was a little surprised by some of the reactions. Talk about double standards! So, if your wife were to say they would want to switch and dress as a man you would have issues??? Isn't that what you are expecting her to accept in you? Where is the double standard in this? Just my thoughts..

I actually totally get it if a GG doesn't want any part of it. They expect a man all of the time. Since we are a minority it usually will be new to them. That is why it is so important for early disclosure. What I can add though is having a TG partner can also be very rewarding. It can add a new dimension to a relationship (and no not the sex part)..A TG partner will be more in tune to a woman's needs and feelings.

[thewife/soon2bex]

I actually totally get it if a GG doesn't want any part of it. They expect a man all of the time. Since we are a minority it usually will be new to them. That is why it is so important for early disclosure. What I can add though is having a TG partner can also be very rewarding. It can add a new dimension to a relationship (and no not the sex part)..A TG partner will be more in tune to a woman's needs and feelings.

This is not what I am saying. The comments in this tread talk about if a cd'r find out that their SO wants to switch they would have issues.. there is where the double standard lies..

[JohnH]

There should be no need for a "masculine convention" to wear the feminine items. If they attempt to masculinize then we will have clothing in black, brown, blue and gray, basically the same colorless palette that currently defines the majority of men's clothing. There was a time when a man could only wear white shirts and black ties. Men should have the same options in fashion but optionally cut for men's bodies. That means that if a man wants to wear pink capri pants, they should be available. Pumps and other women's shoes should be made in larger sizes for males..

I had NO intention that men should be more dull than women. If anything they should be flashier and more flamboyant than women. Look around at the animal kingdom - you see ducks, cardinals, etc. where the male is flashier than the female. That means the makeup, hair styles, and clothes for men should be bolder and more colorful that what women typically wear. There was a time men wore fancy wigs, heels, and makeup before the French Revolution. Current masculine convention violate nature in that masculine presentation is duller than women.

John

[Marleena]

This is not what I am saying. The comments in this tread talk about if a cd'r find out that their SO wants to switch they would have issues.. there is where the double standard lies..

I realize that. I didn't want to tackle that, but yes it is a double standard. We want to be accepted as TG but most (I think) couldn't handle it if their SO was TG.

[Wildaboutheels]

Trying to fight EVOLUTION is a losing battle. Evolution is why women must compete for men. WHY women need to spend far more time on their visusl appearance than men.

Women's clothing is usually more form fitting/form flattering than men's because of this. End of story.

Hair, makeup, nails etc. are also PART of this visual presentation. Again, it is built into our brains.

The REAL question here [to me] is NOT why one chooses to "misrepresent" their sex in some manner. I would not have any problem with any woman [or girlfriend] who wanted to "present" as a man SOMETIMES or wear any item/s of men's clothing. The real question is whether the clothing/presentation changes the person on the INSIDE.

People should wear whatever clothing they find comfortable or appealing regardless of whether it came from the women's or men's department.

[thewife/soon2bex]

I realize that. I didn't want to tackle that, but yes it is a double standard. We want to be accepted as TG but most (I think) couldn't handle it if their SO was TG.

Maybe this is something that should be tackled in the Cd'r realm? Maybe instead of taking angst that a GG cannot accept this - look at how the reaction of a Cd'r to their SO being TG and think about how a CD'r would react and maybe then it can truly be seen by the CD population as to how and why a GG would react the way they would. I am not saying that CD'rs are wrong in any way. I believe everyone should have the freedom to be whoever they are most comfortable being. Just trying to throw out another view and maybe shed some light onto a difficult and thought provoking topic.

[Marleena]

Maybe this is something that should be tackled in the Cd'r realm? Maybe instead of taking angst that a GG cannot accept this - look at how the reaction of a Cd'r to their SO being TG and think about how a CD'r would react and maybe then it can truly be seen by the CD population as to how and why a GG would react the way they would. I am not saying that CD'rs are wrong in any way. I believe everyone should have the freedom to be whoever they are most comfortable being. Just trying to throw out another view and maybe shed some light onto a difficult and thought provoking topic.

I totally get it. Disclosure early on heads off issues and allows one to decide how to handle a situation be it GM or GG. MTF's and FTM's are both minorities and many people don't know much about either. If two people care enough about each other they'll try to make a go of it.

*off topic*
As far as the griping about MTF's not being able to wear women's clothes without judgement while women can wear mens clothes, it's just the way it is. Not much can be done except re-educating.

[Girliegirl]

Another point to draw attention to, because it is relevant to this topic, is equanimity. It is a bhuddist term along the lines of personal freedom. Google it. women do have more personal equanimity than men in general when it comes to personal expression and choice. You can look at almost any womens clothing catalog and see a collection called"menswear". But will never find in a mens catalog, "womenswear". Women are allowed (or have fought and earned) those rights by society. Men are much slower to allow that sort of change in tradition or deviation from routine. That is very telling, especially through the social sigma of crossdressing males and the lack of any sort of outlet of any personal femininity. And it is strict, even capri pants, literally the length of a pair of pants is deemed feminine and will draw strange looks in public if on a male. And out is my belief that through more equanimity allowed for the make population would result in fewer "crossdressers."

[thewife/soon2bex]

I totally get it. Disclosure early on heads off issues and allows one to decide how to handle a situation be it GM or GG. MTF's and FTM's are both minorities and many people don't know much about either. If two people care enough about each other they'll try to make a go of it.

*off topic*
As far as the griping about MTF's not being able to wear women's clothes without judgement while women can wear mens clothes, it's just the way it is. Not much can be done except re-educating.

Ok... still not getting it. I did truly care about him. In fact I will always love him. But with Love has to be trust and that is gone. That is where the issues lies with us. I can never trust him again. I actually do not believe that CD's is a minority. I believe it is much more then people think. I believe by looking at the volume of this here on this site it is much bigger then anyone realizes. Since everything has come out (for a lack of a better term) in our marriage, everytime I turn on the tv something refers to this or maybe I am beginning to see it more now. They even now have a Barbie who is a CD'r. Yep.. saw it on the news. I believe that if someone truly believes in what they are and wants to be accepted by society they need to be able to defend it. If you look at years ago those who are gay decided to stand proud. I believe it is now being accepted by society. Not all of society.. but much more then it was accepted in the past.

But they stood up for what they believed to be right and we now have those in the entertainment industry who are openly gay and accepted. We also have those who are TG in the entertainment field who are being accepted. If you CD you should stand up and be proud. Be who you are and know that you are individuals who if banded together can change perceptions.

Just my thoughts.

[Marleena]

Ok... still not getting it. I did truly care about him. In fact I will always love him. But with Love has to be trust and that is gone. That is where the issues lies with us. I can never trust him again. I actually do not believe that CD's is a minority. I believe it is much more then people think. I believe by looking at the volume of this here on this site it is much bigger then anyone realizes. Since everything has come out (for a lack of a better term) in our marriage, everytime I turn on the tv something refers to this or maybe I am beginning to see it more now. They even now have a Barbie who is a CD'r. Yep.. saw it on the news. I believe that if someone truly believes in what they are and wants to be accepted by society they need to be able to defend it. If you look at years ago those who are gay decided to stand proud. I believe it is now being accepted by society. Not all of society.. but much more then it was accepted in the past.

But they stood up for what they believed to be right and we now have those in the entertainment industry who are openly gay and accepted. We also have those who are TG in the entertainment field who are being accepted. If you CD you should stand up and be proud. Be who you are and know that you are individuals who if banded together can change perceptions.

Just my thoughts.

I was not talking about your relationship, I was taking about relationships in general with a TG person. I don't know what went wrong with yours. We're going off topic so I'll PM you instead.

[Angela Campbell]

Maybe the reason is a lot of men...cd and normal....absolutely adore the female form. I do so much I want to be one too. I think females of all sizes and shapes are absolutely beautiful and cannot understand wanting to minimize the femininity. That said if either of my 2 exes wanted ot become more manly when they were with me I would have helped them all the way.

[Eryn]

If my wife wanted to "go all the way" in FTM CDing I would support her, as she has supported me. It's the right thing to do, and it's what we promised each other when we took our marriage vows.

Now, what is the likelihood that she would actually want to go all the way and desire to be perceived as a man? I think that it's lessened considerably by the fact that GGs are allowed to "walk the middle ground" and wear clothes associated with GMs without attracting any negative notice. She already has the best of both worlds in her normal situation. The only thing that she's missing is male modes of interaction. On the other side of the coin, the only way I can go out in pretty clothes without causing a disturbance is if I am perceived to be female.

Now, there are obviously some GGs who are truly FTM, but very few compared to the number of GMs who wish to go MTF. If the "middle ground" were equally accessible to both males and females there would probably be fewer MTF CDers as we would now be perfectly happy to live in that "middle ground." The situation would be much better balanced than it is currently.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Eryn, right on.
There is absolutely a double standard, not saying every pair of pants is masculine, but nonetheless, women can wear more. There's a young woman at my gym who I have seen twice in the past week wearing an over-sized, men's SF Giants shirt (I know it's from the men's section because I've bought the same shirt) and baggy basketball shorts that go to about mid-calf (and I have many relatives who have played basketball, I know these are men's shorts). Nobody pays any attention at all to her (except me, of course. ) and she does as she pleases. If a man shows up in yoga pants and a tight, pink or lavendar tee shirt, everyone would stare.

[Jamie001]

Another point to draw attention to, because it is relevant to this topic, is equanimity. It is a bhuddist term along the lines of personal freedom. Google it. women do have more personal equanimity than men in general when it comes to personal expression and choice. You can look at almost any womens clothing catalog and see a collection called"menswear". But will never find in a mens catalog, "womenswear". Women are allowed (or have fought and earned) those rights by society. Men are much slower to allow that sort of change in tradition or deviation from routine. That is very telling, especially through the social sigma of crossdressing males and the lack of any sort of outlet of any personal femininity. And it is strict, even capri pants, literally the length of a pair of pants is deemed feminine and will draw strange looks in public if on a male. And out is my belief that through more equanimity allowed for the make population would result in fewer "crossdressers."

Yes additional freedom of expression for males would result in fewer crossdressers. The reason that men fear anything feminine is that they equate a feminine man with homosexuality and most men are extremely homophobic. This homophobia does not exist ot he same degree in women. Why?

[Jamie001]

Ok... still not getting it. I did truly care about him. In fact I will always love him. But with Love has to be trust and that is gone. That is where the issues lies with us. I can never trust him again. I actually do not believe that CD's is a minority. I believe it is much more then people think. I believe by looking at the volume of this here on this site it is much bigger then anyone realizes. Since everything has come out (for a lack of a better term) in our marriage, everytime I turn on the tv something refers to this or maybe I am beginning to see it more now. They even now have a Barbie who is a CD'r. Yep.. saw it on the news. I believe that if someone truly believes in what they are and wants to be accepted by society they need to be able to defend it. If you look at years ago those who are gay decided to stand proud. I believe it is now being accepted by society. Not all of society.. but much more then it was accepted in the past.

But they stood up for what they believed to be right and we now have those in the entertainment industry who are openly gay and accepted. We also have those who are TG in the entertainment field who are being accepted. If you CD you should stand up and be proud. Be who you are and know that you are individuals who if banded together can change perceptions.

Just my thoughts.

I completely agree. Why not stand-up and be who you are? That is the real question and it is the only way to make progress similar to the progress that gays have made in the last 10 years. If men would just wear women's clothing, makeup, nail polish, etc without attempting to deceive that they are a woman, I believe that society would be more accepting. That is the BIG DIFFERENCE. When a woman wears men's clothing, she is not attempting to make folks believe that she is a man. If men would just wear women's clothing without attempting to be a woman then I believe that we would be much more accepted by society. It worked for women and it will work for us.

[DebbieL]

A question to Male CD's complaining about double standards.

I've read a lot of these comments on other threads and just wanted to query it without hijacking someone's story.

Right, picture the scene, your girlfriend or wife, who you've known for years tells you she wants to dress as a man most of the time. She wants to wear no make up, apply fake stubble or facial hair, bind her breasts, let her leg and armpit hair grow wild, cut her hair short, something down the y-fronts to emulate a penis. If she went out like that, there's a chance she'd pass as a man but if everyone knew she was a GG would they go - hell yeah that's fine, nothing odd there at all ?? really ?? I sincerely doubt it.

Actually, a woman doesn't even have to go to those extremes, all she has to do is cut her hair short, wear a loose fitting shirt, and baggy pants, and people will treat her like a man. My great grandmother homesteaded in Montana, with her sister, and no other men. She was allowed to own the land. However, when a woman came into town wearing a shirt and suspenders, the men of the town would likely have her tarred, feathered, and rode out of town on a rail. To those doing it, it seemed funny, and didn't seem all that bad, but the person tarred and feathered nearly always died a very slow and painful death, because the tar stuck to their flesh, blocked the pores and caused their body temperature to rise to the point where, if they were lucky, their brain would boil. If not, they would start to itch and scratch, which would peel off the tar, and the skin along with it. Being rode out on a rail involved being tied to a long fence rail and dragged over the dirt, which usually led to lots of cuts and abrasions as well as broken bones. Those who were really unlucky might lay out in the wilderness for days, itching, bleeding, every touch, every movement causing intense pain, until dehydration killed them - usually in 4-5 days (since they couldn't perspire it took longer).

Women very quickly learned that if they wanted to go into town, they had to wear a full length skirt, blouse, and a bonnet. When the women worked on the farm, they wore trousers because they didn't want to get tripped up by the skirts, they kept their hair short because they didn't want to deal with the heat of long hair - especially since there wasn't warm water to wash it. They also didn't want to get sick from lice, fleas, and ticks that were so common when working with horses, livestock, farms, and freshly chopped trees. They homesteaded the land for 7 years, as did many other women - many of whom had lost their husbands in war, or when the railroad brought in the cowboys who would murder the fathers who were "sod busters" - so that the family would be forced to forfeit the property. The railroad usually gave the women and their families fare back east, but some took the cash, their livestock, their wagons, and moved from Missouri to Montana.

Of course, by the time these women had spent 14 years pushing a plow, chopping trees, to build log cabins, hunting game, herding horses, oxen, and livestock, they were as big and strong as most men, with muscles as big and firm as any man's, and since that included muscles in the waist and back, breasts were smaller relatively. According to stories told by my great grandmother - when one of the railroad men offered to marry one of these women (so he could take her land), she picked him up and threw him 20 feet into a horse trough. Sure, he was scrawny, but she was big enough and strong enough to pull a plow, let alone guide the horse who pulled it, and she could lift a full grown hog to butcher it. After 14 years of lifting logs, swinging an axe, and holding a shotgun, pulling a plow, pulling up stumps, and even simple things like carrying buckets of water from the creek to the cabin - made them look more like men than women. My grandmother's forearms were larger than most men's thighs, and her legs were bigger than the thighs of men who were over 6 feet tall.

It took women almost 100 years to go from being tarred and feathered for wearing pants, to Hillary Clinton and her "Sisterhood of the traveling pants". The fire in the shirtwaist factory that killed almost a hundred women who were locked in and couldn't get out the locked doors as the fabric and clippings burned - fueling a fire that killed all of the trapped women. Carrie Nation, Susan B Anthony, and the suffragette movement fought to make it illegal to for a man to get drunk and beat his wife to death, to give women the right to vote, and to restrict drinking even after prohibition.

I'm not bringing transgendered individuals into this as they are not doing it for thrills/comfort/stress relief whatever reason us crossdressers choose to do it.
Can you honestly say you'de be great with that ?

Crossdressers are transgendered - they just aren't transsexual. A transgender is someone who feels or wants the experience of the opposite gender, on any basis, be that the transsexual who wants to live as a woman full time and have the SRS, the She-male who wants to look and dress and act like a woman, but keep the family jewels, the cross-dresser who wants to be able to go out and pass, but wants to be able to continue living as a man some or most of the time, the transvestite who wants to dress in woman's cloths in the privacy of his own home, and the fetish dresser who only wants to wear particular items either at home, or under their regular clothes. Any transgender may also experience sexual arousal - or not, and may feel that it's feminine. There are other dynamics for both MtF and FtM transgenders and transsexuals, they may involve power, vulnerability, the desire to be violent or to be non-violent, the desire to woo or to be wooed.

At one time, women wanted to dress and act like men because men had so much power, and women had so little, men had careers and ruled the house, wives stayed home, raised the kids, did the laundry, cleaned the house, and were still expected to dress "Respectably" by the time their husband got home, and be ready to have sex with him if he wanted it, even if he didn't give her much pleasure. By the 1950s, there were almost no accurate marital guides, most men had learned about sex in brothels as soldiers, and it had become a common practice of many mothers to harden their daughter's hymen by washing and messaging it - making even marital sex so painful that it was intolerable. In some cases, it was so bad that a doctor had to surgically cut the hymen under local anesthetic. Freud the fraud had written authoritative books on sex claiming that clitoral stimulation was immature and that "mature" women didn't need clitoral stimulation - based on his experiences with prostitutes (who were faking it).

But starting in the early 1960s, with the birth control pill, things began to change. Kinsey had written his book on male sexuality, the book on female sexuality was so controversial that it was banned, Masters & Johnson came out with their report, which was less controversial, and women began to discover their own sexual pleasure, and men were taught that it was good to provide clitoral stimulation, and the Hite report opened up whole new dimensions in female sexuality.

Women's liberation started with the burning of the bras, but soon they realized that they could claim and hold power, without giving up their identity as women. They began to take power in the work-place, planning real careers as doctors, lawyers, engineers, and business executives, instead of just planning to be secretaries, nurses, and waitresses or legal secretaries hoping to hook a good man. They began to take power in the home as well, earning good money, better appliances like washing machines, dryers, dishwashers, and microwave ovens meant they needed to spend less time at home and could work more, and could delegate many of their chores to their sons and daughters.

Changes in divorce laws, in the United States, the Uniform Dissolution of Marriage Act assured that the mother would receive child support, even if she got married, which meant that if a husband was abusive, violent, a drunkard, or raped her, or beat her children, she could get a divorce and be assured of at least enough income to assure that her children did not end up homeless. The deal was so good that many women who married well for the first marriage, assured of 1/2 the income of a husband who had a substantial income as a doctor, engineer, accountant, or business manager, could get a divorce, get half his after-tax income as child support, get the house and one of the cars, and then find a boyfriend or husband who didn't have to work as hard, preferably someone who was on disability due to mental health problems, drug overdose, or other non-contagious medical issue - so he could stay home and take care of the kids, get paid disability, and she could work - giving her even more after-tax income than she had with her original husband.

With less need to please a husband on which she was totally dependent, women began to dress more for comfort, than for fashion. They dressed to impress, to impress other women, and to disarm other men, to be treated like "one of the boys", to get into the old boy network. Women in engineering and technology often started dressing more like the boys, wearing the same style "golf-shirts", loose fitting pants, flat shoes, and kept their hair pulled back or cut short, and wore glasses similar to those worn by the male counterparts. In medical practice, nurses traded their short dresses for scrubs similar to those worn by the doctors, residents, and interns when they were doing their rounds. Ironically, it reduced the number of infections picked up in the hospital as well. Women who went into business management often went with a cross between the masculine and feminine, wearing pants and satin or light cotton blouses under jackets, part of this was to remain comfortable in air-conditioned offices. Where women did extremely well staying in their skirt and heels was in sales. Some women in sales would wear the hair, make-up, satin blouse, skirt and heels, and would close sales on large contracts - often earning more in a few hours a day than most men would earn working 50-60 hours per week. In many cases, they understood that they were seducing the prospect and then closing the deal with sex appeal, but often they could still do it without having to do anything they didn't want to do. Women in sales and business negotiations were taught that they could get as much as 40% more just by wearing the clothes that appeal to the prospect, even if they didn't make any sexual advances. "Get a man thinking with his other head, and he'll agree to things the head between his ears would never accept".

Many women, in the 70s and 80s began to experience real power, political, economic, social, and sexual power. Hillary Clinton wrote the legal premise for the impeachment of Richard Nixon, Madonna began to push the envelope, combining sexuality and erotic power with economic power, and then using it for political power and social change. During the Rcontriversialeagan Administration, the Meese Commission was trying to ban erotic bondage, while Madonna was pushing the envelope in a Bustier. Girls began to see that they could be sexy and powerful at the same time, even use sex to gain power, but at the same time, they could be "situation appropriate", wearing more modest clothing to school, shopping centers, and other events where they were not intent on manipulating others, and then wearing erotic, even "kinky" outfits to manipulate men into giving them drugs, money, and get the man to please them sexually, to give them what they wanted, before giving the man what he wanted. With AIDS, women learned to please men without the risk of "normal" vaginal sex, learning new ways to control and please a man, and force the man to give her pleasure.

Meanwhile men were being forced to "close ranks". In the 1960s, we were still in the height of the Vietnam war, and the President's Council on Physical Fitness was telling coaches and athletic programs that if they wanted to keep their funding, they needed to focus on creating soldiers, and that 4Fs, queers and faggots were to be dehumanized and made into targets - to keep as many as possible in the pool available for the draft, especially minorities, who were used as "Scouts" - a job the french did by herding pigs through the booby traps, punji sticks, and mine fields. The scouts were the most frequently killed, and were used to draw fire, target the enemy, and then sit tight while the jets dropped napalm all around them (and sometimes on top of them).

When the girls were allowed to wear pants, the deal was that the boys would be allowed to wear shorts, but the Gym teachers made sure that didn't happen. They would have the biggest and strongest boys, those with a reputation for violence - and have them "Make an example of the little faggots" - when a boy wore shorts to school. After 3-4 boys were dragged over the pavement, stripping the flesh off their stomachs, chest, thighs, and knees, none of the boys wanted to take the risk of wearing shorts. Even today, boys were much longer shorts, to hide their thighs.

Women can be as masculine as they want. My first wife had her hair cut shorter than mine, wore baggy flannel shirts, and baggy corduroy pants, and even bought men's shoes. I was even complemented on why a fine young man I was with, she was often called "sir" until she pulled out her credit card. She looked like a young 12-16 year old boy. There were a few people who knew me and knew her and wondered if I was a bit of a pedophile.

We were quite the couple, especially when I'd be wearing my short shorts, woman's shirt, and long hair. I shaved my legs, and there were times when people assumed that I was the mother and she was the father of the baby in the stroller. It was ironic that she never felt uncomfortable dressing like a boy, even stitching up the crotch on a pair of my boxer shorts and wearing them in public, yet freaked when I wore satin panties to bed.

I've known several FtM transgenders. They don't have to wear anything between their legs, and if they don't have to do too much more than wear a tight camisole or T-shirt to flatten themselves enough to pass by wearing a loose baggy shirt and baggy pants. A pair of cowboy boots, work boots, or men's work shoes completes the look, and they can pass as men so well they can even use the men's room. One FtM would often not tell a woman until they were already in the bedroom, when her partner would find out that she might not have the equipment with her at the time, but she could do things that men wouldn't think of doing. But like a man, she didn't stay with one woman very long before she moved on. She even acted homophobic - to discourage gay men.

The MtF transgender or transsexual has much more at stake if detected by the wrong element. Fundamentalist Christians have been trained to believe that it's their duty to kill homosexuals and transsexuals. They are more vulnerable, and because they have exposed more flesh, there is a higher risk of being read based on hair on legs, face, or arms, and they have to hide their Adam's apple, and there are the extra bulges between the legs that need to be packed away so they don't give away at the wrong time, and then there are the breasts. High end breast forms can help, but if the blouse is too low, and the cleavage is examined too closely (very likely if you pad to a D-cup), you get clocked.

Getting clocked today isn't nearly as dangerous as it used to be, but it still depends on where you are. In Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, or most of Africa, transsexuals are put to death, cross-dressers are presumed to be smugglers or terrorists and shot on recognition. In South America, transgenders are often castrated. Here in the United States about 400 MtF transgenders are killed every year. Many are killed outside gay bars.

The Suicide rate among MtF transgenders is astonishing, over half of all transgenders will kill themselves before they are 30, of those who survive, more than half have tried to kill themselves, and about 40% say they used methods that SHOULD have killed them.

The suicide rate for FtM transgenders - tom-boys - is much lower, but this may be because there are fewer transgender FtMs who feel that they must transition, and many of those can do so with much less resistance from the community, and less persecution.

The simplest and most dramatic example is the bathroom. A woman could use the men's bathroom, and they wouldn't be accused of being perverts, they wouldn't be arrested. An FtM transgender even one who just wore pants and a baggy flannel shirt, and had short hair - could easily go into the men's room and wait for a stall. I've heard that some women have even learned to go in the urinal. Nobody raises an eyebrow, nobody is checking, and in fact, it's unacceptable to for any man to look over to check out what another man is packing. But if a woman were caught, there wouldn't be a jealous girlfriend ready to beat the crap out of her or cut her boobs off.

On the other hand, when an MtF transgender uses the ladies' room, there is all kinds of risk from the second she gets into the line. If she's read in the line, the women may just tell her to use the men's. If she is detected in the bathroom - she could be arrested in many states and cities. If arrested, she would be put in the men's holding cell, with a bunch of other men. Even if she had full breasts, so long as she still had the testes, she would be put in the "boy's room", where she would likely be raped.

If the women didn't deal with it through the law, one or more of the women would go to their boyfriends and tell them about the pervert in the ladies room, and expect their boyfriends to "do something about it". Depending on their state of mind, how intoxicated they are, and how violent they are naturally, the "solution" could range from a beating with fists and boots, to being castrated with a jack-knife. One of the most important aspects of gender transition counseling is teaching the transsexual how to handle these volatile situations gracefully, so that they can do what needs to be done without causing any more upset than absolutely necessary.

Eventually, a transsexual will reach the point where she is living full-time as a woman, and can legally have her status changed, but even before then, she can do everything as a woman, and can manage those rare occasions where she does get "clocked" in a way that results in compassion and confidentiality, rather than ridicule and derision. Even then, there is always the risk that some fundamentalist christian nutcase will still decide to take the bible out of context and too literally and decide to do God's will by killing the "Sodomite".

Please don't think I'm saying women shouldn't be able to cut their hair short or wear mens clothes, grow armpit hair, it's personal choice. But when it becomes about emulating a man rather than just wearing male clothes it changes peoples perceptions.
There are two points to this.
1) Women who try to present as men FTM crossdressers if discovered to be would just as much be noticed as a man wearing a dress

The bigger risk for them is that they could find themselves in a situation where they are alone in a group of men who get very drunk and violent. If she is truly FtM, she knows how to fight, and has studied at least a few martial arts forms, and can hold her own in a fight, but when someone gets her from behind or she gets into a situation she can't handle, and she's knocked out, there is the risk that she will come out of it forgetting that she still has to pass as a man. If the boys discover that she's a girl, they might want to teach her a lesson by taking advantage of the fact that she's a girl. There is the risk of rape, sodomy, and other forms of sexual and physical abuse.

2) Don't think you're all hard done by and assume it's all shits and giggles for women too, they are often judged unfairly on appearance, weight,
height when wearing their own clothes let alone those of another gender.

Absolutely! In fact, one of the things that is interesting is that when MtFs begin to transition, one of the first things they do is lose a LOT of weight. They end up with a much nicer figure, because they want to be beautiful and sexy, like the women they have admired and wanted to be for so long. Even if they are just cross-dressers, they wanted to be Cher, Madonna, or Brittiney Spears - not Moma Cass, Rosanne Barr, or Rosie O'Donnel. They want to be attractive.

The irony is that in doing so, they actually draw too much attention to themselves, which gets them clocked way too often. It's when they learn to tone down the make-up, the hair, and wear pants instead of skirts, and wear a camisole under the low-cut blouse - that they begin to be able to pass. For some, especially cross-dressers, having to tone in down and look just like the other 2,000 women in the shopping mall, just average, takes all the fun out of it. For the transsexual, it's what they have always wanted, to just be another one of the girls, to go shopping with them, to share the gossip, to be all the things that come with a woman.

I remember someone joking about the transsexual who got a sex change and now has to work twice as hard to get have the pay. This has more truth than anyone would like to admit, but it's true. Many of the advantages they had when they were perceived as men, are no longer available to them as women. They have to learn new strategies for success, they can't shout down someone in a meeting, and they might even have to present their best ideas to a man they know will take the credit, so that their solution will actually be implemented. They may even transition into sales, where being better dressed, more fashion aware, and prettier than the average girl - is an asset, but where they may have to perform sexual favors to close the deal, and need to make sure that they can keep control of the situation so they don't get exposed.

I know personally that if my wife decided she wanted to do this I'd have to think long and hard about my relationship which I know she did with ours when I came out to her last year.
I've been massively fortunate that she is accepting of it, I can dress, wear makeup, wigs etc if I want, when I want. I've not ventured out yet but that may not happen.
It's easy to take the 'why is it alright for women to wear jeans and shirts' line but honestly mens clothing isn't massively distinctive from female counterparts of the same item. Jeans cut will be different and not hang as well, shirts un tailored just the same as a man wearing boyfriend cut womens jeans wouldn't stand out in crowd.
Am I the only one who feels this ?

Actually, both of my wives have been known to buy their clothes from the men's department. My first wife regularly purchased from the boy's department the first few years of our marriage.

Ironically, I have been buying most of my pants from the women's section, because I have very long legs and women's pants cut for heels are longer. I also have a big but, so a women's size fits me much better than a men's size. For example, I look very good in a women's 18 or 20, but I would struggle to fit into a men's 40, I'd have to go to a 44 or 48 and wear a belt and gather everything in to keep the pants from falling off, but knowing that they would probably be stopped by my hips and butt.

I wear those pants to work, to church, and most of the time. I almost never wear men's pants, they are too uncomfortable, especially jeans. I'll wear men's dress pants to corporate meetings with executives, or to certain church functions, but for the most part, they are reserved for special occasions. I also wear women's underwear all the time. At work I'll wear men's shirts, big loose and baggy. If I were to wear a golf shirt or a tight fitted shirt, my B-cups would show, even without a bra. Sometimes, I'll even wear a shape-wear camisole under the shirt if I am wearing a fitted shirt or sweater.

Even my footwear is on the border, mostly women's wear, low chunky heels, that give my feet some support, and seem to help my back. The heels are 1 to 2 inches high, and again, I wear them to work, to church, and most of the time. Even my athletic shoes are women's shoes. They fit better, they look better, and I feel good when I wear them.

In many cases, all I have to do to appear is put on a bra, a wig, and some make-up (still have some hair removal to be done on chin and upper lip), and I don't even have to change my clothes. The funny thing is that when I wear a woman's cotton tee, I can pass as a woman with the wig, bra, and make-up, and almost pass as a man just by taking off the wig and the bra.

[Rianna Humble]

Men need to come up with masculine conventions with makeup, dresses, heels, etc. so they can wear those garments in a masculine context the same way as women have come up with feminine conventions for wearing pants. Why should a man have to "pass" as a woman to wear a dress?

This sounds quite logical apart from the fact that each time that a designer has come up with a "man-dress" or a "man-skirt" people in this forum have queued up to say that they wouldn't want to wear something like that. There may be the occasional cross-dresser who wouldn't mind a man-skirt, but they are few and far between from what I have seen here.

I can't help wondering how many of those who complain about the supposed double standard would actually be content wearing man-skirts and man-dresses?

There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

Have you seen many FtM cross-dressers or FtM transsexuals? Or is this quote actually referring to women who wear jeans or "boyfriend shirts"?