If Crossdressing Was Widely Accepted

[tiffanyjo89]

OMG! ANOTHER PASSING THREAD?!
Hold your horses, this is a different type of thread on passing.

Would "passing" be so much of an issue? I recently bought Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Southern Surroundings" set and was kinda surprised at what a couple of the members had on in the cover shot:

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/8045...undings_sm.jpg

One is wearing pink jeans and a blue embroidered top and the other, a purple/lavender shirt. By modern standards they are dressed somewhat androgynous (borderline femme) but if you were to even hint that they were gay or call them a word that rhymes with an old maid, they'd probably rip you a new one.

What I'm wondering is, if guys wearing skirts and traditionally feminine clothing like tights & leggings, spaghetti strapped tanks, lace, etc. was more widely accepted, and it wasn't entirely odd to see a guy in his girlfriend's jeans or t-shirt (not saying it has to be a girlfriend's, it could be his own...this scenario implies its his girlfriend's though. The classic "ran out of clean ones" excuse. Heck, girls get away with wearing boxers as regular shorts and most band t-shirts are "unisex" which is a codeword for a guys t-shirt that is available in smaller sizes) or even wearing her panties without anyone thinking he was gay would we worry about passing as much? Would stores worry about having gender segregated clothing sections? Would "crossdressing" cease to exist? Just something I thought about it.

[GaleWarning]

Back in the late 60s I played piano in a band.
We all wore powder blue trousers and pink shirts.
It was cool. No-one thought wierd thoughts about being transgendered.

[tiffanyjo89]

And what has changed in 50 years? Guys wearing clothing several sizes too large? I personally think that some of the 60s/70s styles were a lot better than what teenage and younger guys wear today.

[Sara Jessica]

Why do we want the average Joe to dress like a girl?

[Wildaboutheels]

It IS widely accepted. These very Forums are chock full of stories of "men" forever claiming that they could not pass in a gazillion years "as a woman" who have gone out "countless" times and NEVER had a problem.

REALITY? It doesn't matter what anyone's definition of Widely Accepted is. There will always be people who have a problem with it no matter the "numbers". There are people today almost 150 YEARS after the Civil War STILL whining and carrying on about Black people.

Trust me, you are probably more likely to be struck by lightning, than you are to be injured or hurt by someone who dislikes CDers.

Who knows how many Cders are "out there" everyday in the RW, quietly going about their business with no repercussions whatsoever?

[tiffanyjo89]

It IS widely accepted. These very Forums are chock full of stories of "men" forever claiming that they could not pass in a gazillion years "as a woman" who have gone out "countless" times and NEVER had a problem.

REALITY? It doesn't matter what anyone's definition of Widely Accepted is. There will always be people who have a problem with it no matter the "numbers". There are people today almost 150 YEARS after the Civil War STILL whining and carrying on about Black people.

Trust me, you are probably more likely to be struck by lightning, than you are to be injured or hurt by someone who dislikes CDers.

Who knows how many Cders are "out there" everyday in the RW, quietly going about their business with no repercussions whatsoever?

I guess you are right about that part...but there still are large numbers of people who think that a guy in a skirt or a pair of panties must be gay.

But how much of people going out without passing without problems is people just being (more or less) polite rather than actually accepting it as the person's right to wear what they want to?

and...

Why do we want the average Joe to dress like a girl?

I wasn't talking about the average Joe dressing up like a girl as much as I was the average Joe just wearing girl's clothes. Women wear pants all the time without it being considered crossdressing...why must a guy who wants to wear a pair of panties instead of typical mens underwear or a more feminine styled tank top be seen as "dressing like a girl?"

[EllenJo]

If crossdressing was widely accepted, I would wear skirts all summer long!

EllenJo

[Ressie]

I was a teen back in the actual hippie days (late '60s). I had a friend that wore some of his girlfriend's clothes to school, but they pretty much just looked like men's hippy clothes. I used to get comments for wearing flowered shirts, hip huggers even tho that was supposed to be the current fashion for men. Not many of us had long hair back then either. But those of us that tried to emulate British or west coast rock bands got laughed at by other students. it was the first time that I know of that men's fashions became slightly more feminine.

Even in the '90s I couldn't wear a flowered or pink shirt without someone cracking on it. As bizarre as some kids dress now days, someone will still make a comment if one's drab attire is slightly out of the ordinary. Robert Plant in the early '70s wore very blousy looking shirts with that curly blonde hair. Many Rock bands had an androgynous look and people would comment on it. But the were rock stars and getting paid for having that image.

[jessi]

I live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I see men wearing women's jeans all the time. Quite a few crossdressers around here, too, and no one seems to pay much attention to them. Also, a few older men who dress like wizards. Maybe there's a Spells 'R' Us store around here that I simply haven't discovered yet...

[MicheleCooper]

Hmmm...if cross dressing was widely accepted. I could see someone like Obama rocking out in a cocktail dress with some Jimmy Choo heels. Seeing Mitt Romney taking a fashion tip from Paris Hilton and campaigning in a little black dress with some designer heels. Everything is great for the two candidates until Mitt broke the rule of wearing white after labor day. And then Biden pairing his thigh high boots with a pair of short shorts,... ok time to put the imagination away for now.

[AllieSF]

I agree with Wildaboutheels. Most people's fears are made up in their own mind about going out. Yes, bad stuff happens and maybe just a bit more to someone that is dressed contrary to todays so called acceptable norms. That is still a minuscule number of possible bad incidents.

What is your hangup about someone considering you gay? We are on a site that caters to all, most of us are looking for acceptance and then a lot of members don't want to be thought of as gay. If, and only if someone asks if you are gay, like asking if you are employed, married, or whatever, just answer yes or no. No big deal. You are making it a big deal. What about that other non CD guy out there that does not want to be called a CD? We already know that CD's are cool and acceptable everyday people.

Now in answer to your question, I think that if crossdressing was widely accepted regarding those that dress completely, then others who partially dress with or without a wig or facial hair, would benefit to some degree. The almost there dressers would probably and hopefully be seen as just a variation subset in the larger population of CD's. I believe that we are on our way there and eventually it will happen in some form, where people will see more CD's, transgenders and TS's out there as those groups feel more secure in themselves to go out and live their own lives as they see fit. Hopefully, it will come sooner rather than later.

[tiffanyjo89]

...What is your hangup about someone considering you gay?...

It isn't necessarily my hangup (although I will admit, I've had my share of people asking me if I'm gay without knowing about this side of me...I'm not gay...) but I know that in many areas of the country (such as the one I'm in) it doesn't matter if you are gay or not, if someone thinks you're gay and you deny it, they just think you're even "gayer." Also it doesn't matter if you are coming on to them or not, there are plenty of people who will physically hurt a trans or gay person just for existing.

[KateSpade83]

If crossdressing was widely accepted then I'd go to work and job fairs dressed as a woman. And I wouldn't be unpopular among some people for "being gay." [I don't have sex or mess with men].

You know where crossdressing IS ACCEPTED - IN SOME ASIAN COUNTRIES LIKE THE PHILIPPINES AND THAILAND. There you can see "ladyboys" on the street shopping or even some work, like in call centers. People know these ladyboys admire the beauty and wonder of being a woman, so they know where they're coming. Ladyboys are kinda common there and they don't cause a ruckus in the men's washroom. In America you never see a "ladyboy!"

[AllieSF]

Tiffany, I clearly understand that in the wrong situation that type of confrontation can have negative results. That is when you say and do whatever to protect yourself, no questions from me at all. However, I was referring to the questions that come up in the more common and safer situations where a simple yes or no without any further explanation puts the burden for the next reply on the asker and not the responder. I get asked that question all the time, because, as has been said many times on this site, people mistakenly think that to crossdress means one, a male in the MtF situation, is therefore, gay. I say no and then wait for the next question. That is when I help clarify their misconception and then move on to other interesting topics about them and there personal lives.

[tiffanyjo89]

Yeah, I'm in a kinda in a small town (not really small, but hey, it's the south...) and generally like it, but there are plenty of people that if you look at them odd they'll jump you.

[NicoleScott]

If crossdressing was "widely accepted" it probably wouldn't be called crossdressing anymore.

[bobbie c]

nicole...i like that..good answer! nice and simple

[cathie pantyhose]

if it were widely accepted I would with out a doubt be more comfrotable with it and even make more of an effort to go out and meet others

[Melissa Rose]

If crossdressing was "widely accepted" it probably wouldn't be called crossdressing anymore.

I was going to say the exact same thing as far as clothing goes. There would still be those trying to appear or present as the opposite gender since gender is way more than clothing, thus the definition of cross dressing would probably change.

This may be a case of be careful of what you wish for. If clothing was no longer gender bound or androgynous, fashions may change and evolve, and the things many adore and love about women's clothing may partially or completely disappear.

[ReineD]

...but there still are large numbers of people who think that a guy in a skirt or a pair of panties must be gay.

I just want to point out that Lynyrd Skynyrd's set cover shows men dressed in colorful 1960's era clothing who still are very much dressed like men who do not attempt to hide their bulges. There's a big difference between these styles and spaghetti strap tops with skirts.

The 60's clothing style wasn't about crossdressing, but rather anti-war, anti-establishment, human rights, and gender equality (a nod to second wave feminism) which translated into long hair and bell bottom pants, bright colors, beads, and sandals worn by both men and women who still wished to differentiate themselves from one another. The men had facial hair, sideburns, and if you analyse the clothing you'll still see differences between what men and women wore, no matter how bright the colors.

Getting back to your question though, if it were standard in our society for men and women to dress in exactly the same way, I think that CDers would find other means than just clothes to differentiate themselves from other men and look more like women. This might be through hair, makeup, breast forms, etc. If everyone dressed the same way but women wore horns and painted their faces green, CDers would also wear horns and paint their faces green.

You also touch on the belief by many people that a CDer must be gay if he tries to look or dress like a woman. We all in this forum know this isn't true, but I can understand why many or most people believe this. The reality is, the majority of our population has no interest in presenting as a gender opposite than birth and further, most people are heterosexual (only 3-5% of the population is same sex attracted). So there is a universal assumption that if a man tries to look or dress like a woman, then it must mean that his motive for doing this is to attract men, since the majority of women are attracted to men. Most people have no knowledge of non-conforming gender identity and they do conflate gender identity with opposite-sex attraction since the majority of people are hetero, no matter how vast the LGBT community seems to those who are a part of it.

[Monicamaryjay]

Hi Tiffany,
If crossdressing were widely acceptable (and free of danger), I would be doing it all the time, and I would probably not have been needing this website.. I could just go out.

That is not the case in my town, I assure you. Crossdressing can get you into some serious trouble with the hardnosed closed minded working class types in this town.

Our world has quite a distance to go before we reach anywhere near wide acceptance, I think...... but I look forward to those days, if I ever see them.
Hugs,
Monica

[Karren H]

Accepted or not.... I still rather look like a woman than a guy in a dress..... from a distance.... traveling at a high rate of speed... at night..... lol

[tiffanyjo89]

I just want to point out that Lynyrd Skynyrd's set cover shows men dressed in colorful 1960's era clothing who still are very much dressed like men who do not attempt to hide their bulges. There's a big difference between these styles and spaghetti strap tops with skirts.

The 60's clothing style wasn't about crossdressing, but rather anti-war, anti-establishment, human rights, and gender equality (a nod to second wave feminism) which translated into long hair and bell bottom pants, bright colors, beads, and sandals worn by both men and women who still wished to differentiate themselves from one another. The men had facial hair, sideburns, and if you analyse the clothing you'll still see differences between what men and women wore, no matter how bright the colors.

Getting back to your question though, if it were standard in our society for men and women to dress in exactly the same way, I think that CDers would find other means than just clothes to differentiate themselves from other men and look more like women. This might be through hair, makeup, breast forms, etc. If everyone dressed the same way but women wore horns and painted their faces green, CDers would also wear horns and paint their faces green.

You also touch on the belief by many people that a CDer must be gay if he tries to look or dress like a woman. We all in this forum know this isn't true, but I can understand why many or most people believe this. The reality is, the majority of our population has no interest in presenting as a gender opposite than birth and further, most people are heterosexual (only 3-5% of the population is same sex attracted). So there is a universal assumption that if a man tries to look or dress like a woman, then it must mean that his motive for doing this is to attract men, since the majority of women are attracted to men. Most people have no knowledge of non-conforming gender identity and they do conflate gender identity with opposite-sex attraction since the majority of people are hetero, no matter how vast the LGBT community seems to those who are a part of it.

QFT

Also, yeah, the clothing back then, however similar was different between men and women, but only just. I have seen (it was probably posted here) an old clothing catalog that had mens and womens nylon briefs that were made in the same design, the only difference was the mens design had a fly and white elastics around the waistband and legs. And yeah, a flashy shirt is a different thing than a spaghetti strap tank and a skirt, I will admit that, but nowadays it seems all male clothing is typically subdued in design compared to the female counterparts (just look at a lot of the graphic tees that are sold in Walmart and other stores). Another thing though, back then a lot of guys pants were a lot tighter than what you see nowadays (and this is not counting the "pants on the ground").

[Jamie Ann]

If we compare 2012 with a generation ago, then we notice more androgynous attire now than then. Partly that is due to women having opportunities that they did not have in the past. The CEO of a large company does not want to look like a tart — at least not during a meeting of top executives! And speaking of top executives, the term “metrosexual” came into use about a generation ago to refer to men who got manicures and pedicures, shaved body hair, and otherwise adopted grooming patterns traditionally seen as feminine. So that possibility is not just hypothetical!

Of course, metrosexuals are not crossdressers; and women who wear conservative suits are not men. It is possible, though, that their expansions of the boundaries of gender presentation make us seem more acceptable to non-crossdressers. I’m actually not sure of that, but it’s possible. Bands and other music groups may have helpful effects, too, but their attire is part of their performance in a limited setting, not the clothes they would wear for a trip to Publix!

Whether I am right or wrong about any of that, my hope is that crossdressers will become more and more accepted whatever direction clothing trends take. For those who pass, God bless ’em! For me and many others, greater acceptance without passing would be real progress … not quite our wildest fantasies, but progress!

If androdyny became the norm, would crossdressing cease to exist? That is largely a matter of language and definitions. I do not think that cross-gender expression would cease to exist. Wearing a pretty dress would be harder to interpret as cross-gender expression; but we would find other ways!

[Wildaboutheels]

This thread is just further proof if how few people actually read responses.

OR have EXTREMELY short memories.

OR think that all the multiple dozens of self proclaimed "never in a million years passable" men who constantly report they have little to no trouble when out in public en femme are LYING? They would lie to accomplish what? Impress all the other men here that they are "brave"?

So which one is it?

Lemme translate it for you...

If VERY few of the general public - aka "Society" - has any trouble with it...

it means that prolly 95% or better ACCEPT it. Or just don't care. Does it matter which?

Or am I missing something?

Maybe people here are so shrouded in pink fog that they cannot remember the greatest nursery ryme of all time. Now more TRUE than ever.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me".