Did she see something, like a garment laying around, a bit of unwashed makeup, eyebrows different? Why would she just bring it up out of the blue?
Did she see something, like a garment laying around, a bit of unwashed makeup, eyebrows different? Why would she just bring it up out of the blue?
I am sorry to read this after two years.
I would have thought it would have settled down a bit by now.
Keep going extremely slowly and the best of luck.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
It's hard to stand up and say no I am not ashamed. When in reality you do feel some shame. Got news for you. Outside of this board and some other very narrow segments of society, there is a great deal of shame where CD is concerned, ie the real world of men and women.
If it wasn't you would see a helluva lot more CDs out and about during your daily travels in "normal" spaces and situations. Why don't you? Because people will point stare and laugh. It should be something thought of as shamefull by most people. This is the only place I hear someone talking about no shame to it.
Anyone outside of here will tell you you aught to be ashamed, a full grown man carrying on like this?
And that is a damm hard pill to swallow for many of us.
Yes, it has been that way in the past, and for many, it still is. Inclusiveness and acceptance has not reached all segments of society. Irregardless IMO, shame and guilt should not be put on the shoulders of anyone who is born into this world with something that someone, somewhere, and at sometime has proclaimed not normal.Originally Posted by bimini1
My radar is on all the time and I've never encountered this have you? People are mostly oblivious unless they are really looking for us. I do see "masculine" looking women though. Hmm, maybe they were cross dressers, and I'm the one who's oblivious. This is a close cousin to discrimination, and would be illegal if it were done to members of the LBG sector. BTW, we are real men and women, just bent gender.
Ya think? Not the American Medical Association or the American Psychological Association. Even the American psychological Association is is changing tunes. We are just people trying to be ourselves. It's not worth heaping guilt and shame on top of the other difficulties of life in general.
Addendum: Vanessa, I was in the same predicament not too long ago, and really feel bad for you. Having to take anti-depressant drugs due to stress over this is just wrong for any of us, including our SOs. Open up communications with your SO and try to get a treatise with some kind of acceptable outlet for yourself. This is not something you chose, and I don't think you intended nor wished it on someone else. But it happened, and the scenario is not pretty. You are not guilty for being a CD or any level of transgender for that matter. You also should not have to endure shame for being what you are. Maybe counseling would offer some help from your current helplessness.
Otherwise, look for ways to increase your confidence and maybe hers too by becoming more current and up to date about what is going on. Otherwise it's old ideas and reactions. Dig yourself out if possible. This hurts, I know.
Last edited by TeresaL; 10-13-2012 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Clarification and added addendum.
This is what my SO does (if it will help): He knows the rules of society. He knows that he stands to lose stuff if some people find out; could be his job, could be a SO if he weren't with me, could be friends who would still say hi to him but who might stop inviting him to stuff, or it could even be someone else's respect for him.
BUT (and this is the most important thing), INSIDE he is not ashamed of himself! He knows who he is, he knows he has a side to herself that most people don't have, and he/she accepts this. If you can reach this point, then you will lose your shame. Try to keep your internal feelings about yourself separate from other people's feelings, the people who don't understand what this about, but the people who WOULD understand if they were like you, or if they took the time to find out about your needs like the rest of us here.
Be proud of who you are, even if you march to a different drum.
Reine
If I was born with 3 thumbs should I be ashamed? I was born like this and spent nearly 50 years trying to either deny it or make it go away....and I should be ashamed?
Actually I should be proud of the way I have handled it so far. I had to do it all on my own with no support until recently.
I am not ashamed of being left-handed, and I'm not ashamed of being a crossdresser. These are both things that make me different from most of the world (and just a few of things), but they are part of what make special. Although it took me a long time to realize it, being a crossdresser is no more shameful than any of my other unique quirks. You're not hurting anyone by being a crossdresser and you have nothing to be ashamed of.
I wonder if she would browse the female at birth segment of the forum?Somehow expose her to the broader picture and that we don't have to go to that"shameful place".I would dig deep for positive resources that reflect positive and successful acceptance.I think there is hope, but we have to show that this isn't a little sexual fetish but another part of ourselves,a valued extension of our personality that would be nice to share together.She may not be thinking "sexual deviance" but,getting people to rise above these preconceptions seems to be the goal to better undertanding.
Thanks for all the support. I do have an up date. We are going to therapy. Both individual and couples.
Reine D- Yes my wife used shame in a manner to hurt and discourage my dressing. I have tried to explaining to her why, but I don't know why most of the time. It has been with me most of my life and I don't see it going away. I also thought that with DADT we could work through the issues a little at a time.
Celeste- She has no interest in this forum. Made very clear. And yes she has all the preconcieved notions as to cders.
I would like also to say that when I came out my feelings of shame and guilt left and I did feel encouraged. When my wife said these things to me my heart broke and I did once again feel the shame and guilt.
Sorry to hear that. Sounds so Minnesota/Lutheran...
The real problem is that she cannot understand the shame of herself being less than decent to someone.
IMHO, DADT is BS- just shorthand for "i have not yet figured out how to cut you down adequately". Hey, you can't deal with the fact there is a human on either end of the equation, then grow up.
deep breaths dear, they will not solve your problem but they may help you think in the interim.
Guilt is something I will probably carry around forever in some way.
Yet, the understanding and even encouragement from my wife has given me validation that I never expected to receive. She enjoys contrast and complexity and I honestly think she finds all of this quite fascinating.
However, I have something I call default guilt. It's some inner voice at some level calling me selfish...and trying to tell me to not be annoying, to not go over the top or obsess about any one thing.
My wife is getting tired of reassuring me that this is all OK. I am having a hard time accepting what is really happening because I somehow don't feel I deserve it...so goes the guilt cycle.
Meghan
"No matter how far you've gone down a wrong road, turn back."
~Turkish Proverb
Megan, women like your wife and myself who are open-minded, really do not feel it is shameful for men to express femininity. REALLY! And the reason we feel this way is, we have no clue what's it's like to be raised as a guy, with the overwhelmingly stringent guy code rules that tell guys they they are going to h*ll in a handbasket if they so much as think a feminine thought.
You're feeling guilty maybe because you expect that your wife should react the same way to your femininity, as all the guys on the football team would.
Reine
Why did she bring it up after 2 1/2 years? Shaming you is not OK and trying to influence behavior by manipulating feelings is not good. If you are unable to control your anxiety with your meds you should see your therapist or doctor.
Sorry, I didn't see your post earlier. She won't ever be able to work through the issues by herself, especially not with DADT. The definition is DADT is "pretend it isn't there", and this does not encourage any learning.
I'm not suggesting that you push the dressing on her. Do continue to respect that she does not want to see you dressed. Also, there is no point explaining to her why you dress, if you've tried in the past and she still can't see why. The importance is for you to LISTEN to why she dislikes the idea of cross-gender expression. What is it particularly about it that she doesn't like? This means that the two of you must talk a lot about the condition in general, more than the fact that YOU crossdress. If this makes sense. If she thinks it is perverted, go deeper and ask her what particularly is perverted about it. Break it down. In other words, encourage her to go deep inside of herself so she can discover where her disdain for this comes from. A good therapist should be able to help with this, but ultimately the conversation(s) need to be between you and your wife.
We as humans often develop ideas about things that we hold onto tenuously without really understanding if our ideas are useful to us. I'm suggesting that your wife has certain fears that she is not willing to face. This is why she likes to hang onto the idea that the crossdressing is "wrong", instead of looking at you realistically and determining that you are not in fact, gay, perverted, weak, or whatever adjective she uses to describe the CDing that does not describe the husband she knows in you.
She may never get to the point where she feels comfortable enough with it to want to participate, but she should at least try to remove the idea that it is wrong, and simply allow you to express yourself without judging you for it. She really will feel a lot better about the situation if she can manage to do this.
Reine
I think this is an excellent topic for this forum, even though most people have responded in a very positive manner here and it is obvious that many have addressed their own shame around crossdressing assuming that they had it in the first place. I imagine that there are so many others who need this very thing addressed in their own lives. Those who take peeks at the site but don't do much other than that because they feel ashamed.
I've learned a lot about shame recently and it has been extremely beneficial. I have been addressing my own shame, not necessarily around crossdressing, and it has been a very good thing. I've come to the conclusion that shame is often the direct cause to many other problems like depression and anxiety. I also believe that many destructive behaviors towards ourselves or others is due to shame. People who become addicted to drugs or alcohol usually have high amounts of shame. But also, I think someone who directly shames others is a product of their own shame. Your wife, by shaming your crossdressing, then doesn't have to look at her own. It's funny how people will shame crossdressing like nobody else has anything to be ashamed of. That's what sounds like your wife did. "We're all normal here, except for you, you crossdress and you should be ashamed of it." Again, it's obvious to me that she has a lot of her own shame. I'm betting that there are some issues with your wife, probably around her mother?
It seems that her question could present an opportunity to explore the basic for her feelings about CDing...as Reine's suggests.
Last edited by kimdl93; 10-16-2012 at 09:44 PM.
Though not married, i can relate some. I opened up to a lady my age, a long time friend, last weekend by email. She said it is an abomintioan, and she won't talk with me again.
Sort of late to the conversation
Of course I was shamed, how could I not be, I was reminded from every nook and corner of societal straight jacket that I was wrong in expressing what it seen as an act of a sick mind. Mind you I grew up in the early 70s behind the iron curtain.
That is why 40% of trans folks never make it through, that is why many are driven to denial, regression, living life in shadows of self.
But I would say this back to someone asking me the shame question: "I am expressing my inner Self through such shameful act just as much as you, express your denial of me, holding your self as righteous one!, If shame is to be the measure, then we both equally share in fault"
Inna yes that is it in a nut shell. For the longest time society has told us how shameful it is to be this way. It is just a way-no more no less. I just have to remember this. Sometimes it isn't easy though.
Thank you for the perspective. We talked a little tonight and I told her acceptance is getting exponentially easier every day. The thoughts are more fleeting than they were before. And I absolutely believe both of you! It's like the narrator is a little late picking up on the change in story line, I intellectually understand what's happening, it's just the emotional side hasn't finished processing yet.Megan, women like your wife and myself who are open-minded, really do not feel it is shameful for men to express femininity. REALLY! And the reason we feel this way is, we have no clue what's it's like to be raised as a guy, with the overwhelmingly stringent guy code rules that tell guys they they are going to h*ll in a handbasket if they so much as think a feminine thought.
You're feeling guilty maybe because you expect that your wife should react the same way to your femininity, as all the guys on the football team would.
We both were looking for someone to challenge us before we ever met, and we're both holding up our end of the bargain.
What's most interesting is that her reaction to my femininity has been an increase in hers. She's been trending to more colorful clothing lately, wearing makeup more and even slipped on a pair of heels when we went out last weekend. She says she gets to enjoy experiencing girly things without having to get too personally involved (through me) but I really am seeing her take an increased focus in her own femininity. She thanks me for that once in a while.
How cool is that?
Meghan
"No matter how far you've gone down a wrong road, turn back."
~Turkish Proverb
It's way cool, providing she doesn't do what I did.
I've always taken pride in my appearance. I'm artistic by nature so beautiful design whether it art, craft, buildings, furniture, clothing, electronics, you name it is central in my life. I notice shape, color, texture, light, shadow, dimension, balance, function and this also translates to the things I choose to put on myself, no matter what occasion I dress for, even if it is very casual with just a pair of jeans and a sweater. In other words, I'm picky about the things that I buy and I have an eye for style even if it is simple style. I have my very own brand of femininity.
When my SO and I started to go out in public, our first outings were at a local LGBT club where people wore a lot of sexy looking things, and needless to say, the average age of the patrons was way younger than me.
But, it wasn't me. I did it for all the wrong reasons. I was competing with the women whom I thought my SO found beautiful.
I don't do this anymore.
Hopefully your wife is better motivated than I was, and she truly is getting in touch with her own femininity rather than try to put together an image of what she thinks you want or are attracted to.
Last edited by ReineD; 10-17-2012 at 01:03 AM.
Reine
Thank you for sharing your story relative to this topic. Must have been a pretty interesting experience for both of you when this evolved.In other words, I'm picky about the things that I buy and I have an eye for style even if it is simple style. I have my very own brand of femininity.
When my SO and I started to go out in public, our first outings were at a local LGBT club where people wore a lot of sexy looking things, and needless to say, the average age of the patrons was way younger than me.
But, it wasn't me. I did it for all the wrong reasons. I was competing with the women whom I thought my SO found beautiful.
I don't do this anymore.
Hopefully your wife is better motivated than I was, and she truly is getting in touch with her own femininity rather than try to put together an image of what she thinks you want or are attracted to.
We talked last night after I replied to the post. Overall, she has a very distinct way in which she expresses her femininity. We watch soaps together (reruns now that All My Children is done), keeping in social contact with friends and our community of friends, and we really, really enjoy cooking together, organizing our home and sharing music with each other. These are all things she did alone before we met, but we have found joy in them together.
Most importantly, my wife has a very strong point of view on most things (which is why we work so well together, I always know where I stand). She, like you, has done a lot of reading and actively involved in "solving" the problem, in the sense that she is more interested in us fulfilling our full potential as partners and individuals, and she is actively working to fit Meghan into our dynamic.
Interestingly, we have always had a relationship where we are both open to call out something we find attractive or beautiful, but she knows (and so do I) that I have no real interest in other women. I have always been more interested in how a particular look is put together as opposed to being attracted to a random, nice looking woman. For example, she will pause Runway to point out someone who looks hot, whereas I might pause it to take a closer look at how the model had her makeup done.
We've had that interaction long before my wife knew about Meghan. Once again showing why she wasn't surprised (too much).
So, to finalize, I don't sense any real competition going on. If anything, we're more collaborative than before, which is really quite fun. However, it is something that we will continue to discuss because feelings can and will change over time. As long as we keep each other informed and are open and honest, we should be OK, I hope.
Thank you again for the interesting perspective and the cautionary words. I will take both to heart.
Meghan
"No matter how far you've gone down a wrong road, turn back."
~Turkish Proverb
Being from Minnesota I know what it is like being up here not totally accepted yet not completely denied respect. It is an odd middle ground, like they are not quite sure what to do with you. Especially with family and friends. My friends wanted to keep me around, yet pear presser from media kept telling them I should not be accepted. Me personally I am Bi sexual and young than you,which put in an even weirder spot with my friends and family. But knowing how much you can care about a person, just tell your wife that she has nothing to worry about with your passion. and that through it all you still care about her and only her. I would try to make her accept the way that you are, but not all people are like that. So there is most definetably a chance that you might have to change a little for her. But no matter what try and keep some of this passion to yourself.
I was once brought to tears during a conversation with my wife a few years ago, struck not necessarily by shame or guilt, but simply because I felt like I understood the pain that I caused her when I told her of this aspect of me. I'm not sure I am able to process the feelings we know as guilt or shame into something I can experience like most since I don't feel I've ever done anything shameful or anything outside of my nature to be guilty of.
I apologized to her for having waited so long before telling her of this all, but I never apologized for being me.
Since that time, she has never made me feel guilty or shameful (unless you count the times I may have accidentally taken the chocolate bar that she expected to save for herself!)
jenn
Last edited by jennCD; 10-26-2012 at 12:07 PM.
Jesus said to the hypocrites who brought to him the woman "caught" in adultery " let him who is without sin, cast the first stone,"
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