Jessica, you posted your situation, presumably for others to comment on it, yet you seem to argue with every poster. Your seeming need to defend your unusual marriage arrangement tells me that you're not quite sure of it yourself.
Just do whatever you want, then tell us about it (or not) after it's done.
[SIGPIC]http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=82706&dateline=137762 0356[/SIGPIC]Linda
VR, Bondage, Degradation, Suppression
Have you considered Virtual Reality sex? I think it was in the 90s that VR was getting interesting, but it seems like it fizzled out, but I haven't kept up with it, so maybe there's some like that where you could have VR sex with others. VR is what I would call safe sex.
As much sexual experimenting as you and your wife have done, it sounds like you've probably tried bondage, or S/M, etc. I'm not married, and am actually a virgin, but I've fantasied along similar lines. I don't like S/M, but I've fantasied being married and putting my wife in bondage and inviting men to rape her, not painfully, but degradingly. I don't have such fantasies often, but occasionally.
So somewhere in my subconscious there seems to be a desire to make my beautiful (fantasy) wife feel degraded. I think this beautiful wife in my fantasy is me, my feminine side. From early childhood my feminine side was suppressed by may parents. "Big boys don't wear girls' clothes". In order to feel loved by my parents I want to degrade my beautiful feminine self.
Maybe your wife's masculine side was suppressed by her parents or others, so she fantasies degrading you, where you represent her masculine side. You could ask her if she remembers her parents or others telling her not to act like a boy.
- P.S., It occurs to me now that this may also explain many men's tendency to rape and even murder women. I think they were likely shamed more severely in their childhoods for expressing their feminine sides and they try to punish women for making them feel feminine. I believe society shames boys for being feminine much more than it does girls for being masculine, which could be why women are much less violent toward men than men are toward women. The same may apply to child abuse; men and sometimes women punish children for being weak. Men aren't supposed to be weak, so shamed men punish anyone who acts weak.
Last edited by LelaK; 10-30-2012 at 11:13 AM.
T-shirt says: "Hi, I Crossdress!"
I'm not even sure, wait? What?Originally Posted by linda allen
I'm not even arguing. I'm not really sure what your on about? The basic points of the thread are established, cheating is bad, on this there is a consensus. I've even agreed with this sentiment several times. I'm not being argumentative on any of the actual points of this thread.
I am however always willing to defend my relationship. You're original post was belittling and demeaning. As though to put your normal marriage above whatever class my marriage is. I let that slide and didn't point it out. I wasn't rude, nor was I argumentative to you or anyone else here. I value your input, what I am trying to say is that the perception that my marriage has failed or is in the state of failing, is false ... off topic and rude at this point.
I've brought up new points, and addressed the old including the topic of fidelity. Which I don't disagree with any of you on the topic of.
We've since moved on since I made the original post (you'll note I've made a few this morning) and new things have come to light. I work midnights and she's a gamer girl (meaning she's up late into the morning anyway) so we talk almost all night long. I shared that with all of you above ...
We've established that I'm not asking if it's okay to cheat.Which leads exactly back to our opinions. Infidelity is not cool. Ever. The question at this point I think is. Should I be willing to re-evaluate and modify the rules with changing circumstances or even just changing thoughts on the matter? How far does it go before it becomes infidelity regardless of rules and boundaries on the issue? Meaning, even with a green light from the SO and from the rules, where should the line be?
I'm of the opinion that the rules are fine as they are. She hasn't outright said (though, now thanks to your insight I will ask her this) but it seems like there's a bit of want to re-evaluate the rules. I don't think they need to be, and if she's not cheating on me and or trapping me why would she want the rules changed? Granted in 5 years they've led to absolutely nothing, so there is that. There may be room for some tweaking here and there, but outright changes or scraps, I don't think so.
We've established that she doesn't view this as cheating as she interprets the rules.
We've established given all of the above I'm still pretty intent on not going.
We've established I'm not willing to break the rules (ie: cheat) ever
So I'm asking, politely, that we move on I'd love to hear your opinion on this. As I said above, I think everything is fine with the rules and they don't permit this. Which is fine with me. I like that. I'm comfortable there, and where are.
Wow! My jaw just dropped.
Uh I haven't actually heard of VR sex. Then again we're not all that far off with things like Love Dolls and the like. There are animatronic, sex toys you can get. They honestly creep me out for the most part. Which isn't a surprise, it's known as the uncanny valley. When you attempt to make something look human, there's a point at which it's good enough to fool you at a passing glance, but creeps you out if you actually look. There aren't many examples of things that have crossed the valley and managed to not look creepy. Neat idea though, I love it. I'll have to look something up about that
Yes to the second paragraph. We certainly do enjoy a bit of bondage, etc. Not to the extent that you describe, certainly. There's no rape in there. It's about trust. You trust that the person you're with loves you enough to enjoy you, within limits, while you have no physical ability to stop them. You trust that they will remain within those limits, and that at any point you can stop it by using a stop word. You trust your partner will do the same. Before anyone get's any wild ideas, the furthest my wife and I have gone in this avenue, some handcuffs and blindfolds. Harmless teasing and nothing involving pain or degradation.
That being said, while I don't agree with your first part in whole. I agree with where it takes you, and it's a very interesting thought experiment here. Having a side of you repressed for so long is going to have effects on the side. It's conceivable that a correlation could take place between a desire to be a specific gender and having to repress it, and the fantasies of degrading (harmless degradation is cool, rape is not cool) that gender as a result.
Given that she too feels misrepresented in her skin, it's not a huge leap of the imagination that there may be a little of that in her. In which case this would be her way of receiving pleasure while being a man as she sees it. Very interesting. Thank you.
So you're into threesomes rather than each of you having separate lovers. One word of advice: please make sure that she wants the threesome as much as you do. If in the past you've been the instigator more than her, you don't want your wife to go along with it just because she want to keep her husband.
Also, if the agreement between you is threesomes, then stop toying with the idea of sleeping with someone at the club you describe, no matter how appealing it seems, no matter how much you believe you have her permission (when your gut feeling is telling you otherwise), to the point where you buy an outfit for the evening and actually step out the door.
I'm glad that you and your wife had a discussion last night after you made your original post and she clarified her position to you. I recommend that you bookmark this thread for future reference, when and if the urge to go there manifests itself again.
Reine
A marriage works and is a marriage as long as both partners willingly and happily agree to and follow the rules. Many open marriages work. You just don't find out that they are open unless they fail... and they fail for all the same reasons monogamous marriages fail. But if they fail... then OF COURSE IT'S BECAUSE ONE ONE CHEATING... /SARCASM
How many monogamous marriages celebrate their 50th anniversary? Not many.
How many people in open marriages tell all their friends and family that they are in an open marriage? Not many.
How many marriages end up in divorce? A LOT.
How many monogamous marriages fail or have issues because of cheating???? A LOOOOOT!
If there was more communication and if more people married people that were on their same level of monogamy or monogamish, maybe there wouldn't be so many failed 'monogamous' marriages.
(and for the record... my boyfriend and I are monogamous... so I'm not biased and defending my own choices here, like some people are)
--
Anyway, this is getting way off track and shouldn't be a discussion about whether one idea of marriage is the right idea of marriage. The OP and wife have their own arrangement and you should respect that.
Last edited by Bree-asaurus; 10-30-2012 at 01:36 PM.
My SO has said many times she would love to see me with another guy, in the 3 years we've been together it hasn't happened. First is that it's hard to find an honest person anymore, sure there's some left, but a sex club hardly seems like the place. I was talking with another bi CD in the area, hoping to dress and possibly play. Talked for about a month by email and based on the responses(or lack of) I was hardly willing to meet the person, nor was she. Clubs are not usually the best places to meet the people you are looking for. I wish I could offer advice on finding the right person, but I'm also looking for that so let me know
Being comfortable to you and your SO should be the main concern. You want to be comfortable the entire time, it takes time to find that person with all the CD chasers or guys just hoping to bang your girl. The internet is probably the best way to find someone, at least that's what we're trying right now. I'm comfortable to CD in front of strangers, I enjoy it even with my masculine appearance, but to bring someone to my home or hotel room takes a lot more confidence in the new person. If your wife is ok with Jessica being with another guy, like my SO is ok with Kora and a guy that's awesome, but make sure you're comfortable and the person is safe. I wouldn't hesitate to ask for the latest STD/HIV test, but that's me.
Yes that is essentially the arrangement. I agree 100% on her needing to be active in the decision (it's rule #4, actually) to have an extra come to bed with us. It's her body, I'd never coerce her or otherwise to do things she isn't willing to do. When we bring someone to bed, it is the both of us doing it. I can't remember an instance (not that there have been many) where it has been instigated by one side or the other. It's usually mutual, talked about well in advance and each other's rules and boundaries respected.
I agree with you on the second and 3rd paragraphs as well. After some thought and discussion on the matter, I'm pretty sure the issue is closed for now. What I do know is it won't remain closed forever. One of the many things I've learned in our marriage, things are always open to revisit, things are always adjustable to new ideas and nothing is ever dealt with for good.
We talked a bit more this morning before I went to bed. As it turns out she has a great understanding of the rules in place, just a different interpretation of them. She interpreted the combination of rules 1, 3, & 4 meant that if given permission to go to "y" and do "x" then it's not outside the rules. However if you include rule #2 then it doesn't fall within the standard set and in my opinion falls too far outside the rules. She's not wrong, and neither am I. They're different interpretations of the same words.
Side note: Think of the effect similar to that in law. The law is written using a single set of words, the art of practicing law on the other hand is the art of interpreting those words. I actually found it awe inspiring when she told me that upon reflection she see's it as within the rules based on her interpretation. Which is entirely the kind of intelligent discourse I am so very lucky to have.
Ultimately the answer is no. I will not be going, ever. After our talk this morning (see, we really do talk everyday) we both agreed that the risk is not worth the reward. Despite that our old methods are not working adds no weight to the argument that it should be done. It's not the end of the world, one day we'll meet the right person and things will be good. Just because the old methods aren't achieving a specific goal, doesn't mean they aren't working. They're working as intended and keeps undesirables out of our relationship. Neither of us see the need to change the rules, though we agree some tweaking may take place in the near future to clarify some points.
Thank you for your input Reine, I assure you I will remember your words of wisdom.
Thank you Kora, it's nice to know I'm not the only one out there. We've been at it for nearly the same period of time too, lol.My SO has said many times she would love to see me with another guy, in the 3 years we've been together it hasn't happened. First is that it's hard to find an honest person anymore, sure there's some left, but a sex club hardly seems like the place. I was talking with another bi CD in the area, hoping to dress and possibly play. Talked for about a month by email and based on the responses(or lack of) I was hardly willing to meet the person, nor was she. Clubs are not usually the best places to meet the people you are looking for. I wish I could offer advice on finding the right person, but I'm also looking for that so let me know
Being comfortable to you and your SO should be the main concern. You want to be comfortable the entire time, it takes time to find that person with all the CD chasers or guys just hoping to bang your girl. The internet is probably the best way to find someone, at least that's what we're trying right now. I'm comfortable to CD in front of strangers, I enjoy it even with my masculine appearance, but to bring someone to my home or hotel room takes a lot more confidence in the new person. If your wife is ok with Jessica being with another guy, like my SO is ok with Kora and a guy that's awesome, but make sure you're comfortable and the person is safe. I wouldn't hesitate to ask for the latest STD/HIV test, but that's me.
You are absolutely right that honest people are hard to find. In most cases you have to drag out of them what their actual intentions are before you ever agree to meet them. Don't get me wrong I've made plenty of friends meeting folks both online and off. I also have a wonderful and understanding group of friends and family that are willing and able to help. My older brother and his husband for example. My older brother has been down the road I'm just starting to go down now. He's been an out CD for nearly 10 years, and out as gay for longer. His husband is the one from which we received most of our first hand experience information regarding the place. Beyond that of course is the need to research anything before you go into it.
That however is a digression. I agree in whole that the internet is currently the best (and safest I may add) way to go about finding people, while it may be fruitless for many years it allows you to weed out individuals in a safe and effective manner. It also allows you to determine where a person fits before you really get to know them. There are CD chasers as you mentioned, they're of no real interest to me. The majority that I have encountered thus far are straight folks, while I wouldn't rule out straight folks for a bit of play off hand in the future, I cannot accept them as a first time. I haven't encountered too many of these folks who have the experience necessary for me to be comfortable with it. There are gay men, which are ideally what I am looking for in a first time. However within our rules, she (my wife) has to be present and most the gentlemen I have spoken with that are gay are not interested in that. There are plenty more, I'd be very interested in hearing about your searches and things you've learned, and sharing mine. Perhaps sometime we can chat about it via PM or such. It is truly great to find someone in a similar situation having similar problems.
Regarding STD's etc, I think by now it should be fairly evident that I'm not uninformed on the subject of sex and relationships. Everything must remain safe, thankfully where I live there are a number of free services you can take advantage of to get tested. Before any consideration is made to moving from talking on the internet & meeting in person (public place, coffee shop or bar) for an initial greet, one of those free tests are to be preformed. I have one addendum of course, it goes without saying that if I can't trust that person, then they cannot trust me. Therefor we all get tested (my wife, myself and the potential candidate). Though to be honest, we don't usually get that far.
Thank you for your input Kora, it's really nice to hear from you. Like I said if you feel the need or want to drop me a line and discuss our similar journeys, I'd love it very much. I'm glad you've found someone like I have, and I hope the best for you in your future searches.
I haven't posted yet, JessicaMay. Because it seemed there was WAY more going on with u and your SO than u initially mentioned. I think u realize most of the early replies were useless to u and may be why you've elaborated on your unique situation?
I've been married and divorced. Unlike, Bree, I don't think CHEATING causes relationships to fail. I believe lack of communication does. Irregardless of your unusual sexual situation, it sounds like your communication is better than 95% of relationships I've been in, heard of, or seen!
The only danger u both face is trusting the honesty of your chats. Not necessarily the honesty of the other spouse, but that of yourselves! And, it sounds like you're even prepared for that!
I think u should be giving relationship lessons, not asking us for help. I don't think many, or any, of us r qualified to give u 2 advice!
Last add: Some have referred to your marriage as, "Open". I think of it more as, "Evolved". I believe if more couples were willing to openly discuss issues as u 2 r, the divorce rate wouldn't be nearly as high as it is!
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
Thank you very much for this reply. I might not agree that the early replies were useless, they certainly provided information that helped steer my conversation with my wife. Also given the limited amount of information I had started with, it really isn't a surprise to see some of the conclusions. You are right, I elaborated because I wanted more real discourse on the subject matter. It has and I've been delighted with the thread so far, regardless of content or frustrations.
We seem to think very much alike, you and I. While cheating can cause a relationship to fail, it is certainly the communication aspect that causes the failure cascade. Being unique people we all have unique tastes, thoughts and feelings. Despite being in a relationship I don't expect her individuality to be repressed to conform within the standard definition of a marriage. As such we may not always agree on the finer points eye to eye, but we're never not willing to discuss them with each other.
I apologize, but I don't seem to be getting the gist of your next paragraph though. I'm hoping you could elaborate a bit on this. As I understand it (forgive me if I'm wrong) but you're saying that during our conversations we could potentially lie to one another (let's assume for good reasons here, not vindictive evil ones) or tell half truths. That is certainly a possibility.
During these conversation you take what one party has to say with a grain of salt, a bit. You compare them to the actions of the person and once you have the combined results you can determine the nature of the statement (false, intentionally misleading, unintentionally misleading, omission due to embarrassment, etc) with a certain degree of confidence.
When that doesn't work you always have the option of leaving the topic 'open' and revisiting it at a later date. The majority of our conversations on matters such as sex, CD/TG, etc are the results of years worth of conversations. Sometimes we go backwards, sometimes we go forwards but we always revisit old conventions to see if anything needs tweaking or modifying in light of new conditions. The interesting aspect of revisiting something at a later date (when combined with a memory like mine) you can compare current results to old and again gain some more determination as to the nature of one statement or another. When contradictions present, they create opportunities to discover what caused them.
I do love your definition of our relationship, evolved is nicely put. I do agree though, if more people were willing to share more of themselves with their partners through rational and continued communication, then we'd see a great deal more happy couples out there.
What I meant was, that it is easy to misstate your actual feelings to your partner. Or, simply change your feelings or your mind! Your "revisiting" allows for those options. Couples always have disagreements, then fite. They usually come to some uneven compromise. Then try to live for years using rules which may have been obsolete a week after they were set. However, neither wishing to stir the issue and start a new fite, just live with useless rules!
The problem; it only takes ONE partner to be unwilling to wade into the communication morass to change a marriage from partnership to separation. And, often both r unwilling.
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
Lordy,,,Lordy,,,Lordy,,,, I got enough problems without Adding that Crap to the Mix ,,,,,Geezzzzzzzzzz---------------Ussssssssssssssssssssss,,,,ILL,,,, JUMP,,,, I will ,,,
Yull Find Out !!! lol,,,,
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