Why we so scared to...

[Barbara Ella]

I agree we need to lose the stigma we feel in just the act of going outside the home, and by this I mean in another town, and completely with people who will never know my male life. We should feel free to do that whenever.

Family, friends, workers, etc. is an entirely different consideration, and has little to do with going out dressed, but showing them a side that is not their expected norm, and reactions will vary, and individuals will all handle the various reactions differently. I disagree with the notion that we feel we will be forcing our lifestyle on them. We are however forcing on them new thoughts. I for one have made the judgement that they do not need to have thoughts like these in their already crowded hectic life. It is all I can do to handle them myself.

Barbara

[Foxglove]

Annabelle I see it differently. I have lived with this all of my life but my family has not. I see no reason to cause stress in their life by forcing them to accept or even know about my lifestyle. And yes, if I were to come out to them I would be forcing them to have the knowlege of this which would serve no good purpose at all. It would not help me to feel better but it would turn their lives upside down. Allowing them to know would hurt them. Now with strangers I am not forcing anything on them. What I do does not in any way effect their lives so doing as I please is doing no harm. So in truth telling my family is imposing on others and would be an incredibly selfish thing to do.

First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by "family". Are you talking about your immediate or extended family?

For me, an SO is in a special category because people have the right to marry someone they're sexually attracted to, and most cispeople aren't attracted to transpeople. As regards children, a lot of our members say that they keep their TGism secret because if it became known, their children would be bullied at school. This is a very legitimate fear.

But consider what it means: if I live the way I need to live, my child might well get harassed. In other words, people get at us through our children. By bullying them, they bully us. And a lot of our members don't seem to be angry about that. They say that if they were to impose this on their children, it would be very selfish of them.

Again, I say we're getting things backwards. It's not we who are imposing anything on our children. It's bigots in the world at large that impose this on our children. I understand there's a lot of bullying going at schools that school administrators have a hard time controlling. But what about parents? Do they teach their children not to bully others?

Look at it this way: suppose a neighbor of mine got convicted of and jailed for some crime, so I told my child, "Mr. X is a criminal. You should harass his kids at school tomorrow." Is that good parenting?

If we keep our secret from our kids, we're being pragmatic. But it doesn't mean that we'd be selfish to live the way we want to live. We're simply bowing to the bullies of the world out of necessity. They're the ones in the wrong. Not us. How many cispeople would be OK with the notion that they had to refrain from living in a certain way that's neither illegal nor harmful so that their kids wouldn't be bullied?

It's true that a lot of transpeople stay in the closet out of fear of the consequences for their families. This is very wise. But it doesn't put the bullies in the right. We're not in the wrong. We're simply doing what often enough the world forces us to do. Let's not take their guilt upon ourselves.

I've been in contact recently with some young transpeople who are having an awful time with their parents and siblings. These kids are in genuine distress. Their parents are taking the attitude, "How can you do this to us?" You would think that those closest to the transperson would be the ones who would make the biggest effort to understand--as a way of showing their "love". Sadly, it isn't always the case by any means.

Or if we're talking about the extended family, I can't imagine why I'd care what any of my aunts, uncles or cousins think about me. Other people's circumstances might well be different from mine, though.

Understand: I'm not trying to tell anyone how to deal with their families. It's up to each individual to decide what's best for him/her. I do know what the real world is, and I'm well aware that people often have good reason for keeping a secret.

What I'm arguing against here is the notion that we're imposing on others. E.g., if there's a family member that you're saying nothing to because you feel they won't be accepting, it's not your fault if they're not accepting. There's no reason to take any guilt upon yourself: "Oh, I couldn't possibly impose on him by telling him. . ."

This is my situation. I'm not out to my dad yet, and I may never be. But that's not out of concern for him. He's spent about 80 years proving that he's one of the most closed-minded people in the world. If I don't tell him, it's simply because I don't feel like listening to his rubbish. I've heard more than enough of it. What it means is that more than likely I won't be open and honest with him. But that's not my fault. There are lots of things I haven't been open and honest about with him. Our relationship has suffered a great deal for that reason. Something I regret, but I can't do anything about it.

Would I be causing him some pain by telling him? Yes. But that's not my fault. He's had 80 years to educate himself in all sorts of things that he's never chosen to pursue. So I refuse to feel guilty about this. His lack of acceptance isn't my fault.

That's the way I see it: nobody's lack of acceptance is our fault. If you feel you need to stay in the closet to avoid damage to your own life or those of your family, then by all means do it. Do what you need to do. Just don't take their guilt upon yourself. That's all I'm saying.

[I'll add a remark to this already long post: for many years, while I was a single parent, I stayed deep in the closet out of fear that the Social Services might try to take my son off me. This was a well-founded fear: there's a very well-known transwoman here in Ireland who was long denied much access to her child specifically because she was trans--trans to the point that she needed to transition.

Who was in the wrong--her or the courts/Social Services? Does it make anybody angry that some people see us as unfit to be parents? Or are we going to accept that there's something so wrong with us that we should accept the guilt that a lot of people want to put on us?

Yes, let's be pragmatic. But let's not accept their view that we're in the wrong.]

[Kate Simmons]

I'm not so sure it's being scared so much as it is that it's just not convenient sometimes. We have others to think about besides ourselves Hon.

[Stephanie47]

Cassandra, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from getting all dolled up and strolling out of the house. In eastern Washington state, there was a young high school girl who feinted pregnancy to see what would happen. Her world changed. She also made the local and national news. I also have friends would married out of their faith or ethnic background, and, their world changed.

It would be an interesting exercise for a college term paper for a young man to get all dolled up and stroll out into the world as a woman. Report back the results. Then reveal it was only an exercise, like the girl who became 'unpregnant.'

Nothing at all wrong with enjoying yourself, although the joy may be short lived.

[abbyleigh001]

Right on Dee... Regardless of the recent progressive advances on behalf of our community without common sense prevailing in our gender decisions we enter into a world of possibly losing the support and respect within our families, community and employment... Fear therefore is brought about through the specter of loss... Common sense ladies...

[Angela Campbell]

Annabelle.....I am answering this way because the post is so long I didn't want to use quotes LOL.....When I said my family I was talking about my kids, and my mother to be specific. It would break my mothers heart and I would never do that. She is over 80 and would not, could not understand. My kids may be able to accept it but no reason to bring a shock like this into their lives if I do not have to. Luckily they live a long way away from me (well my mom lives about 40 miles away the kids a lot further) and there is little chance of being caught by them. I spent my entire life hiding this from them...and my ex wives....and that has worked well for me.


When I was younger I liked to partake of certain herbs, I did not tell my family about that either.

[Jamie001]

Well in my case, I worry about the neighbours finding out because I just don't want any hassle, I worry about friends finding out because I'd be afraid of losing them & I worry about my job because I need to make a living.
It's sad, but society in general is just not as accepting as we'd like it to be.

I am not sure that you are correct. What about gay folks? They seem to find a way to survive while being out to friends, neighbors, and coworkers.

[Jamie001]

We transpeople need to move away from this view that by being ourselves we're imposing on others. We all agree that people should have the right to live as they please, so long as they're not hurting others. By living as myself, I'm not hurting anybody else. And I believe I should have the same civil and human rights as anybody else. I'm not imposing on anybody, and I don't want them imposing on me, either.

Best wishes, Annabelle

This is very true. We are not imposing on others, they are imposing on us because we are not hurting anyone. We need to be proud of who and what we are and not cower in the closet. Gay folks made progress by getting out there and being who they are. Many CD's don't have the guts to get out and fight for the cause.

[ReineD]

Annabelle, there is a difference between what SHOULD be, and things the way they ARE. When people have jobs they cannot afford to get fired from, or young children, elderly parents, and they are not driven to live full time femme, they need to deal with the way things ARE.

If you do not fear being fired from a job, and if your child is an independent adult, and you are driven to live full time, then you have the luxury of thinking of it in terms of what SHOULD be.

There are no rules that fit both situations.

[Ressie]

This is very true. We are not imposing on others, they are imposing on us because we are not hurting anyone. We need to be proud of who and what we are and not cower in the closet. Gay folks made progress by getting out there and being who they are. Many CD's don't have the guts to get out and fight for the cause.

Some of us don't feel compelled to dress in public and fight for the cause. Crossdressing isn't viewed as a lifestyle for some of us. There are gays that are in the closet even in this day and age as well as transexuals. So why should part time closeted CDs suddenly go public and fight for the cause?

[Miranda-E]

So why should part time closeted CDs suddenly go public and fight for the cause?

they don't have too, they just have to be satisfied with the current social outlook if they choose not too.

[Jamie001]

Annabelle, there is a difference between what SHOULD be, and things the way they ARE. When people have jobs they cannot afford to get fired from, or young children, elderly parents, and they are not driven to live full time femme, they need to deal with the way things ARE.

If you do not fear being fired from a job, and if your child is an independent adult, and you are driven to live full time, then you have the luxury of thinking of it in terms of what SHOULD be.

There are no rules that fit both situations.

Reine, I somewhat agree with you, however I believe that the way to avoid getting fired from a job is to not crossdress at work. When you are away from work go ahead and crossdress because what you do on your own time is your own business. For example, some folks are crossdressers and other folks may be members of nudest colonies but they do not crossdress at work or go to work naked.

[ReineD]

Yes, Jamie. I was addressing the question of how much "out" people want to be, and under what circumstances.

People who are retired or who work independently, whose kids have grown, who may be single (or divorced or widowed), have a great deal more freedom than younger, working fathers whose wives may not want to take on the discrimination for themselves and their children. The first group can be out at will, since the impact on people who are arms length (no immediate family, no bosses) will not be too severe. But the second group will fare better only being out to arms length people (strangers in the next town over).

[Foxglove]

Annabelle, there is a difference between what SHOULD be, and things the way they ARE. When people have jobs they cannot afford to get fired from, or young children, elderly parents, and they are not driven to live full time femme, they need to deal with the way things ARE.

If you do not fear being fired from a job, and if your child is an independent adult, and you are driven to live full time, then you have the luxury of thinking of it in terms of what SHOULD be.

There are no rules that fit both situations.

Reine, I'm wondering if people aren't missing the point I was making. I'm not in fact talking about the way things SHOULD be. Nor am I arguing with a single point you're making here.

And when Almostlady says this,

Annabelle.....I am answering this way because the post is so long I didn't want to use quotes LOL.....When I said my family I was talking about my kids, and my mother to be specific. It would break my mothers heart and I would never do that. She is over 80 and would not, could not understand. My kids may be able to accept it but no reason to bring a shock like this into their lives if I do not have to. Luckily they live a long way away from me (well my mom lives about 40 miles away the kids a lot further) and there is little chance of being caught by them. I spent my entire life hiding this from them...and my ex wives....and that has worked well for me.

When I was younger I liked to partake of certain herbs, I did not tell my family about that either.

I'm not arguing with that, either. I'm not trying to make any rules for anybody. E.g., I said this:

As regards children, a lot of our members say that they keep their TGism secret because if it became known, their children would be bullied at school. This is a very legitimate fear.

and I said this:

Understand: I'm not trying to tell anyone how to deal with their families. It's up to each individual to decide what's best for him/her. I do know what the real world is, and I'm well aware that people often have good reason for keeping a secret.

and I said this:

If you feel you need to stay in the closet to avoid damage to your own life or those of your family, then by all means do it. Do what you need to do.

In other words, I recognize that people do what they do out of necessity.

What I'm arguing against is the notion that we transpeople are somehow an "imposition" on society. If I live the way I want to live, I'm not any more imposing on society than a woman is if she lives like a woman or a man if he lives like a man or a black person if they live "black".

Consider this: if a woman suffers some kind of discrimination, are we going to tell her, "You should try to hide the fact that you're a woman"? Or if a black person is discriminated against, "You should try to hide the fact that you're black"? No, we say that such discrimination is wrong, and we try to eliminate it.

But transpeople do routinely feel the need to hide what they are. "If my boss found out I'm trans, he'd probably fire me." "Well, then, you should hide the fact that you're trans."

This is the sort of constraint lots of transpeople face. Yes, they're very wise to accept necessity. But it doesn't make it right for society to impose that necessity on us.

This is why I react against transpeople saying, "I don't want to impose my lifestyle on others." Because then we're accepting that discrimination against us is somehow justified, somehow at least partly our fault.

If there are certain people that a given transperson doesn't want to come out to for fear of the consequences, I understand that, I'm not arguing against that. What I am arguing against is the notion that it's our fault.

When someone fears to do something like going to the grocery store because ultimately it might cost her her job, that is a serious infringement of one's civil and human rights. What other group of people would accept that sort of imposition?

"Oh, I can't go to the grocery store because people would see I'm a woman/black/Moslem and then I might lose my job." It sounds insane, doesn't it?

Yet that's what a lot of transpeople have to accept--but I reject the notion that we're imposing anything on anybody. On the contrary, a lot of things are imposed on us.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[ReineD]

What I'm arguing against is the notion that we transpeople are somehow an "imposition" on society. If I live the way I want to live, I'm not any more imposing on society than a woman is if she lives like a woman or a man if he lives like a man or a black person if they live "black".

Consider this: if a woman suffers some kind of discrimination, are we going to tell her, "You should try to hide the fact that you're a woman"?

Right. You are saying that being trans is not an imposition on society. If I were a CDer and lived according to this credo, I would then cease keeping the CDing private, since I would believe that if society does not accept me, it is their problem and not mine.

The other point of view which is one that I adhere to, IF I do not have an abject need to be full time and I also have a job that I want to keep and a family that also does not want to suffer bias because of my CDing, the problems that society in general has in accepting the CDing also become MY problems, even if I believe that everyone "should" accept this. I have to deal with the existing bias as best I can by making certain choices.

[Angela Campbell]

Exactly my view. For all choices there are consequences. I look at the possible consequences and decide what my actions will be. I am not pleased with the possible consequences of coming out or transitioning so I do not follow that path.

[Foxglove]

Right. You are saying that being trans is not an imposition on society. If I were a CDer and lived according to this credo, I would then cease keeping the CDing private, since I would believe that if society does not accept me, it is their problem and not mine.

Not necessarily. If you believe that the disadvantages of coming out would outweigh the advantages, you'd stay in the closet. Society would still be wrong, but you'd do what you feel is necessary.

The other point of view which is one that I adhere to, IF I do not have an abject need to be full time and I also have a job that I want to keep and a family that also does not want to suffer bias because of my CDing, the problems that society in general has in accepting the CDing also become MY problems, even if I believe that everyone "should" accept this. I have to deal with the existing bias as best I can by making certain choices.

Yes. I haven't said anything to the contrary. (By the way, why does this need have to be "abject"?)

The point I'm making is that society is imposing on us. We're not imposing on them. Hence, we have no need to apologize to anybody by saying, "I don't want to impose on others," or "I don't want to force my lifestyle on others."

We'll often have to accept what they impose on us, but that doesn't mean we have to apologize to them.

Exactly my view. For all choices there are consequences. I look at the possible consequences and decide what my actions will be. I am not pleased with the possible consequences of coming out or transitioning so I do not follow that path.

I haven't suggested that you should do otherwise. I don't know why people keep insisting that I have.

[NicoleScott]

There seems to be agreement that each person should weigh all the factors and make their own lifestyle decisions. Whether we are imposing on society or vice versa is academic.

[Foxglove]

There seems to be agreement that each person should weigh all the factors and make their own lifestyle decisions.

Yes, I certainly agree with this.

Whether we are imposing on society or vice versa is academic.

But I'm afraid I can't go along with this. For me, this is a very important point, which is why I raised it. Transphobes will use the argument that we're imposing our lifestyle on them, which is wrong of us since we're only a tiny minority. As far as I'm concerned, they've got it backwards: they're the ones imposing their lifestyle on us.

I do think it important to point that out. And I will admit it does bother me when I see transpeople saying virtually the same thing, because in that case we're accepting that this transphobic argument is correct, at least to some extent. We're accepting that TGism is shameful and should be hidden.

A lot of transpeople have good reasons to conceal their lifestyle. But in my opinion, the notion that TGism is shameful shouldn't be one of them. We all have the right to choose our lifestyle. But do we have to be ashamed of ourselves?

[ReineD]

Society would still be wrong, but you'd do what you feel is necessary.

Oh, if you're saying that society is wrong for being biased against the CDing, then I agree in principle and I think that everyone here does too, although I don't think this argument is very useful. The bias exists because the world since time began is accustomed to seeing only two genders, male and female, who for the most part (other than a very small percentage) very much need to differentiate themselves from one another. This has been and still is the norm. People become anxious, or they see it as odd, when gender boundaries are crossed. They don't get it.

It will take a while to get the non-trans 97% of the world population to agree with a third state of being when it comes to people whose internal gender is not congruent with their body. Granted, a few cultures have acknowledged it in the past, but for the most part, the knowledge that there is anything other than male and female and that it is normal to be born not congruent with one's body has not entered the mainstream. Hopefully, as the psychiatric and medical communities remove the pathology from being trans, and as more laws change to recognize trans rights, and more health care providers see it as a valid medical condition that needs to fall within covered medical treatment, things will continue to improve. But, for now it is still an uphill battle and not everyone wants to be at the forefront championing trans causes, especially if they do not need to live full time (if they do have a partial or full male identity).

My sympathies and admiration go out to people who have no choice but to live in a gender opposite than birth. It can't be easy.

[Angela Campbell]

Annabelle I do agree that we do not impose our lifestyle on others. I have never tried to talk someone into crossdressing.

[STACY B]

Hell I really don't know why ? Maybe because people think that being Different is a sign of weakness ? Maybe the ones that stay hidden do it for the simple fact that if you dress like a girl that means your soft ,, Or an easy target for Bully's . Where I come from being a girl or female does not mean your soft . I know plenty of woman or girls who will be the first to Spank a grown man . So don't think just because someone dons some sexy clothes or shoes you get a free pass to Harris them . I have seen us girls come in all different shapes an sizes . For the most part there the ones that were Super Man before ,,So take heed an watch your lips ,,, You might get a high heel in the Kaa-Boos !! TOOT------TOOT-----

[Jamie001]

The bias exists because the world since time began is accustomed to seeing only two genders, male and female, who for the most part (other than a very small percentage) very much need to differentiate themselves from one another. This has been and still is the norm. People become anxious, or they see it as odd, when gender boundaries are crossed. They don't get it.

Reine,

The psychological community acknowledges that there are two sexes (male and female), and they also agree that gender is a continuum and is certainly not binary. It is society that has the problem of pigeon-holing gender expression based upon biological sex and Hollywood exacerbates the problem by reinforcing gender stereotypes. I saw a program that described this on the Learning Channel last week. When will the information that gender is not binary be imparted to society in general?

[sometimes_miss]

When will the information that gender is not binary be imparted to society in general?

I think it already has, but most of the population has their gender stereotypes written in their minds 'in stone', right next to their religion. Changing their minds is a very uphill battle. But as the next generations see us as just another variation, eventually we won't be considered such pariahs in society. Sadly, I won't live long enough to see that day.

[Foxglove]

Annabelle I do agree that we do not impose our lifestyle on others. I have never tried to talk someone into crossdressing.

Exactly. That's why when transphobes make this argument, they're getting things backwards. We don't try to force them to live our lifestyle, but they do often oblige us to live theirs.

This is why I think it's good for us transpeople to accept that we don't in fact impose our values, lifestyle, etc., on cispeople. If we accept this transphobic argument, it's as if we're accepting what the transphobes want us to accept: that there is something inherently shameful about TGism which requires it to be hidden.

To be sure, we often have to keep it hidden. You've got a good reason for saying nothing about it to your mother, we've all got good reasons not to say anything about it to various people. But ultimately this is a necessity imposed upon us by society as it presently is. We can all hope things will change some day.