What is the definition of Gender and Sex?

[Foxglove]

Peta, unless you have female sex organs you are a Man. Your Gender is detirmined by what organs you were born with, not by what you think. And religeon has nothing at all to do with anyones gender!

So you are a man, but you like to wear feminine clothes!! Well, so do most of us CD's on this forum!! That is why we are on here. I have been a CD for most of my life and I am currently 80 y/o! And I am dressed totally enfemme as I write this. That doesn't change anything as far as I am concerned. And yes, I do go out in public dressed enfemme almost every day. How I dress and act is my business, unless I am hurting someone else by doing so!! Be yourself and quit worrying!!

Rianna, your response is very different from what I have learned from the doctors that I have talked to. The sex organs you were born with are the ONLY thing that detirmine your birth sex!! If a baby is born with male sex organs, that baby is a male!! Not a Transsexual or an Intersex. Those things come later, when the baby has grown to where the mind comprehends things.

Unless an awful lot of doctors are totally wrong the sex organs that you are born with are the only thing that detirmines, not only your birth sex, but also your gender. You can change that gender by having surgery, but that is the only way it can really be changed. Just thinking you are a woman does not change any thing!! If Peta has male sex organs, then he/she is really a man!! He may think of himself as a woman, but without surgery that is not true!!

Hi, Stephanie! I'll echo others on this thread and point out that your remarks here are offensive. Where you're going wrong is that you're using the terms "sex" and "gender" as if they're interchangeable. Now among the general public they may be, and they may also be in a dictionary. But we transpeople draw a distinction between them, and this is what you're failing to grasp.

I'll explain it like this: outwardly I'm male. Despite that, my inner feelings are female. That's what makes me transgender--this difference between my plumbing and my feelings. Transgender people conceptualize it like this: your sex is your genitalia, your gender is in your mind.

Unless I'm mistaken you identify as a CDer and as male. Therefore you may not feel any disparity between your sex and your gender, and therefore perhaps you don't understand that some of us do. For me and for many others on this forum, our sex and our gender are different.

You need to grasp this point. Now it's abundantly clear to me from your many posts that you're not a malicious person--quite the contrary. But the remarks you've made on this thread are virtually identical to remarks you find on many places on the net made by cisgender trans-haters specifically to mock transgender people: "You've got a penis. You're a man." "You've got XY chromosomes. You're a man."

They totally miss the point, which is the disparity between a person's sex and gender, which is precisely what makes that person transgender. I'm well aware what I have between my legs and I'm well aware what is going on in my mind. Ridiculing transpeople by ignoring their gender ridicules the pain they often feel. It is discouraging to encounter that sort of thing on this forum, of all places.

Stephanie, I'll repeat that I know you're not a malicious person and the offense you've given here is completely unintentional. But I would plead with you to think about this and come to an understanding of the distinction between sex and gender so as not to give offense to any of our members again in this way in the future.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Marleena]

Sex=what genitals the doctor sees when you're born and checks off on your birth certificate.

Gender=what sex your brain tells you you are.

I think some of the TS comments are based on lack of knowledge or the ability to comprehend that if you start out with a penis you can only be a man. Anybody that has been here a while should know better. People need to take the time to educate themselves on these things. You need an open mind.

[ImAlexis]

Medicine takes a someone more complicated view of sex and gender. From this standpoint, everyone has three distinct sexes, a chromosomal sex (normally XX or XY), gonadal sex (normally ovaries or testicles), and phenotypic sex (what's on the outside, vagina or penis).

One thing to remember is that even sex specific structures have common embryological origins. The ovaries and testicles both come from gonadal streaks. Additionally, the clitoris/glans penis, labia minora/shaft of the penis, labia majora/scrotum, and the round ligament of the uterus (anchors the uterus to the body wall) and the scrotal ligament (anchors the testicles to the scrotum. Also responsible for moving the testicles into the scrotum through the inguinal canal) all have common origins. This is important for someone with complete androgen insensitivity, who has a chromosomal sex of male (XY) and gonadal sex of male (testicles, which are formed because of the presence of the SRY gene which is almost always on the Y chromosome, but it can move like the rest of the genes). However, since testosterone (specifically 5-DHT) is responsible for external organs, they end up with a phenotypic sex of female and normally a gender of female.

While yes, sexual organs are generally used to determine birth certificate sex (let's be honest, normally chromosomal sex, gonadal sex, phenotypic sex, and gender all match), the current mindset is if something is ambiguous (say, congenital adrenal hyperplasia where there's increased androgens in utero which can cause females to look like they have a rudimentary penis and scrotum), then to call it ambiguous, provide support to the parents, and start to work the baby up. Any surgery is supposed to be delayed until the child is old enough to actually express a gender.

[Marleena]

Needed to add that being TS is determined during fetal development before the child is even born.

[ImAlexis]

However the development of the brain and the development of the rest of the body are treated differently. The mechanisms for intersexed conditions, in contrast to gender identity disorders, is much better known. I can easily point to a specific cause and mechanism of chromosomal issues (i.e. Turners, Klinfelters, XX males, etc) or many intersexed conditions (as mentioned in my prior post). For various reasons (historical/societal, and biological... it's impossible to go back 20-30 years and figure out what specifically happened in utero), the specific mechanisms/pathophysiology/pathology of gender identity disorders are not nearly as well known.

[Marleena]

However the development of the brain and the development of the rest of the body are treated differently. The mechanisms for intersexed conditions, in contrast to gender identity disorders, is much better known. I can easily point to a specific cause and mechanism of chromosomal issues (i.e. Turners, Klinfelters, XX males, etc) or many intersexed conditions (as mentioned in my prior post). For various reasons (historical/societal, and biological... it's impossible to go back 20-30 years and figure out what specifically happened in utero), the specific mechanisms/pathophysiology/pathology of gender identity disorders are not nearly as well known.

Agree.. was just adding to my own post.

[kimdl93]

I often post that people have to be very careful with "labels" as many people don't comprehend or give it quick study and form an image that satisfies the label.Seems to me that the "Transsexual" label is way too powerful to be just thrown around easily. The label brings up a different image than the term "Transgender" seems to.Transgender easily allows you to "temper it a bit" as you explain yourself more easily. Thursday night,I was shown a poll taken two years ago at my UU church regarding the understanding of the LGBTQ world. The 80 members that participated gave support[to what I have said]as to the lack of understanding of "T world" labels. "Clinical" is great,but that isn't dealing with the minds of the average person.

I entirely agree. There can certainly be more precision and fewer people offended if one chooses terminology carefully, and where common usage deviates from what may be more technically correct, it helps to provide greater detail to the term. Of corpse some people will simply ignore the explanation. Communication is more art than science.

[Angela Campbell]

Being told your gender identity is wrong and that your really just a guy is mean, hurtful, and unnecessary to me. I don't know if he said those things out of hate or just ignorance (he did use a lot of explanation points in his statements), but regardless it is very disappointing that its allowed on a site where you would think gender identities would be a little more respected. That rather then deleting or editing those comments and warning the user to be more respectful its given its own thread for debate.

I agree it was thoughtless and offensive, but I do not think it was meant that way or in a hateful way. I do not think Steph hates us because of what we are he just doesn't understand a lot of things. I am told sometimes I am a man and I should act like one, but I am not a man and never have been. So I do understand. I just think it is more not understanding rather than hate.

[Rianna Humble]

Recently a sports personality in this country who is demonstrably not a racist was found guilty by his sports governing body of using racist words and was punished for that even though a court of law had found that there was sufficient evidence to show that he was repeating back to the other person the lies that the other person had spread about him. The governing body underlined that the sportsman was not racist but had used racist words and thereby caused offence.

Steph may have just been repeating trans-hate phrases out of stupidity or ignorance, but in denying the truth of Arbon's gender and insisting that he has the right to call her a man, he was using trans-hate speech and that is intolerable.

[Eryn]

Moderator's note:

This thread is about the definition of Gender and Sex. It is not about hate or criticizing the views of any forum member.

Please limit discussion to the definitions of Gender and Sex only.

[Frédérique]

So you are a man, but you like to wear feminine clothes!! Well, so do most of us CD's on this forum!! That is why we are on here.

[SIZE="2"]If only it was that simple. You and I are definitely in the minority around here, Steph…

What it all boils down to is that some of us MtF crossdressers are transgendered, and some of us aren’t. While I can appreciate the TG viewpoint, seeing (as it is) the overriding viewpoint on this discussion forum, I have no idea what it’s like to be transgendered, nor do I know what a TG individual thinks about day-to-day. As such, I can’t comment on TG issues, but I am a MtF CD, quite definitely so, and it’s important to hear opinions from all regions of the CD spectrum. As for sex and gender, to a non-TG person like myself these are societal impositions that the very act of crossdressing highlights. I must enter a discussion on sex (or gender, if you prefer) because my penchant for wearing the clothes of the other gender obliges me to – if I dress a certain way, it means I must be expressing a certain amount of confusion, or questioning, about my sex, even though gender identity is not an issue for me...

This comes with the territory, I suppose, but few appreciate the fact that many MtF crossdressers just dress for pleasure and they have no intention of tackling issues like gender confusion, or TG rights, or “community” precepts that are part of the larger queer world. Many of us just wish to dress-up, period, and feel good about ourselves. The latter is helped by coming here to discuss, meet others, and attempt to foster well-being about this chronically misunderstood human undertaking. However, every time a non-TG individual raises a salient point, he or she is shouted down like some person unworthy of “the floor.” Personally, I have no squabble with anyone, especially other MtF crossdressers, but someone needs to point out that being transgendered is NOT the whole (CD) ball of wax...
[/SIZE]

[Rogina B]

Freddy,everyone has a right to their own opinion.I think this thread caused such division was due to the opening statement!

[sissystephanie]

If I have hurt, in any way, any of the members of this forum I am truly sorry. I never had any intention of doing that to anyone! The views that I stated in my OP came from much study and conversations with several doctors. 3 of those doctors are medical professors who really know what they are talking about, and are not behind the times!!

I have never in my life been known as being "hateful", and certainly don't want that reputation on this forum. Maybe the only thing that I could be accused of hating is the Terrorists who kill innocent people for no real reason!! As I have said before, I have been a CD for a very long time, and have done a lot of study about crossdressing over those years.

[arbon]

Your a crossdresser I respect that. I'm NOT. I'm a transsexual woman, be respectful and don't call me a man.

[ReineD]

Arbon and DonniD, you are both wrong! Gender is the sex you were born with!!

There have been many threads/posts explaining this, but here's another one:

"GENDER" actually has 3 components:

1. Birth anatomy (commonly referred to as a person's sex)
2. Internal gender identification.
3. Preferred gender role and presentation.


If a birth male identifies internally as a male, and he does not want to cross over into any feminine gender role and/or presentation, then he is not transgendered and you can most definitely say that his gender matches his sex. So, in this case, and ONLY in this case, your statement above would be correct.

BUT ... not everyone is like that. Some people do crossdress. So for them, the internal gender ID may or may not to varying degrees match their birth sex, but they do ONE thing that is different than the men in my paragraph above and this is, they have an affinity for, and adopt the presentation and/or sometimes the gender role of the opposite sex. So, even if they do identify as men (in the case of MtF), there is still a mismatch somewhere even if it is to a small degree and they do fall under the umbrella "transgender". Another term frequently used to describe crossdressers is "gender non-conforming", unless of course the dressing is strictly fetish, but this is a different discussion.

Last, there are transsexuals for whom the internal gender ID most definitely does not match their anatomy. Furthermore, they wish to live as their true internal feminine selves and they wish to adopt the gender role and presentation of women full time, and eventually possibly get sexual reassignment surgery. So you cannot say that with transsexuals, the gender and birth sex are the same at all.

Not to complicate things, but there are also people who do not fall into the gender binary (either male or female) in terms of internal gender ID. They very much identify with both genders, again, on a sliding scale.

I haven't heard Stephanie's aguement since about 1970, and I think she may have misunderstood her Doctor, or her Doctor is living in the last century(plus some). -Celeste

Well, in all fairness to Stephanie, he (I say "he" out of respect for Stephanie) is past retirement and in his 70s. When Stephanie was a young man, or even 30 years ago during his middle years, no one had the knowledge that we have now. So Stephanie very much is a product of his generation, and sometimes it is difficult to catch up to new knowledge after a certain age. I think we all need to make allowances for this. Stephanie, I hope I didn't insult you by saying this, it's just that you are much older than the average person here and I think this does make a difference.

[DonniDarkness]

What it all boils down to is that some of us MtF crossdressers are transgendered, and some of us aren’t.

Freddy, thats impossible. You may not feel internally that you are a woman, but the plain and simple fact: that you are male and crossdress in womens clothes.
Makes anyone one who Crossdresses REGULARLY for Unique Personal reasons fall in the gender spectrum of Transgender.

Until modern medicine we were all labeled Trans-vestites.

Now in modern times, Trans Women have the ability to change their bodies to make their lives happier and allow them to be who they are internally.

Now in modern times, we "CD's" have adopted the Label "Crossdresser" in its place....to somehow remove ourselves from the obvious fact that WE ARE TRANS-SOMETHING.

Even the Latin base words in our dialog about our perception on the grey area of gender all involve the same prefix: Trans

So.... someway.... somehow...if your actively taking steps to appear as the opposite gender.....you are definitively Trans-something by only the pure definition of your actions. A Cross (Trans) Dresser (Vestite)

If I have hurt, in any way, any of the members of this forum I am truly sorry.

\

Apology accepted Steph, Ive been here for long enough to know your not mean spirited.... although i was a little frustrated by the post, i didnt take offense. It was more a facepalm moment of misinformation.

If the majority of the Trans/CD community disagrees with the Transgender theories that these doctors have told you.......They were not listening to whom they were "studying".

We still love you tho,
-Donni-

[Elizabeth Ann]

Freddy, thats impossible. You may not feel internally that you are a woman, but the plain and simple fact: that you are male and crossdress in womens clothes.
Makes anyone one who Crossdresses REGULARLY for Unique Personal reasons fall in the gender spectrum of Transgender.

[clip]

-Donni-

Wait. . . Are you saying that our gender is defined not by our own opinions, but by our outward appearances? Wouldn't that make gender defined by social convention, that is, the opinions of others?

Frankly, I'm not sure I understand gender as a non-physical phenomena, but I think this argument is on very shaky ground.

Liz

[DonniDarkness]

Are you saying that our gender is defined not by our own opinions, but by our outward appearances? Wouldn't that make gender defined by social convention, that is, the opinions of others?

Riene said this in the post above me, and to keep the thread from being too redundant (too late now!) i chose not to reiterate what she had said but i will now, just to be understood.

"GENDER" actually has 3 components:

1. Birth anatomy (commonly referred to as a person's sex)
2. Internal gender identification.
3. Preferred gender role and presentation.

Gender is not only a physical existence but also a mental perception of ones inner-self. These three things listed above are what make up our gender based not only on "How we Feel", but also "What We Do".

If a male who does not have any form of gender variance from the CiS-Gender (Binary) Population, and he wanted to dress up, it would be Armani Suits and Rolex's....

But the fact that a male who wants to dress up nice and wear womens clothes, by definition of the own labels we have adopted (over our generation and those before us) makes this Person solely based on their actions...A MtF Transgender.

I'm not sure I understand gender as a non-physical phenomena

"Sex" is the definition of differences in our biological existence as humans. "Gender" is an awareness of who we are and how we interact with the world we live in. The word "Gender" implies Roles and Social Needs/Expectations....and is not always directly connected to what birth sex an individual is.

-Donni-

[ReineD]

Wait. . . Are you saying that our gender is defined not by our own opinions, but by our outward appearances? Wouldn't that make gender defined by social convention, that is, the opinions of others?

This is pure conjecture on my part, but here goes:

I think it's both. We are treated differently based on the gender that others perceive we are, and I think this does affect our human development, at least while growing up. Also, how do we know that our perceived gender is similar/dissimilar to other people of the same/different sex? For example, I know and feel that I am a woman, I have a woman's body that I treasure, but how do I know that I don't feel internally the same as my brother? His temperament is similar to mine in many ways.

I can also perceive vast differences between myself and the super, ultra-girly females (the ones who wear pink and go "ewww" when they see a bug), and ultra athletic, frou-frou-less females who don't care to wear makeup and skirts. I see myself as somewhere between these two extremes, but if we are to compare how the frou-frou-less athletic woman feels to the girly-girl woman, then how do we know that they feel they are the same gender at all, even though both will say that they are without any doubt, women?

I don't think that we are solely who we think we are, since we have no way of knowing how others feel to compare and also we are not always objective about ourselves. We can be in denial, or fall prey to rationalization based on what we want or don't want vs. who we are. But most importantly, we do communicate who we are through body language and paralinguistic cues which forms the greater part of communication, and so it might be that others can pick up who we are, better than we can, at least in terms of placing us within either the male or the female gender range, no matter how we look.

Back to being who we say we are, have you noticed that some CDers identify as men, while others say they're mixed-gender, while others think they might be TS. Yet, they probably all experience similar things internally, save perhaps for the amount of dopamine released when dressing.

[suchacutie]

One point is biologically clear: Our birthsex is mapped in every one of our cells in our DNA. That is never changed, no matter what we do to the external manisfestation of that DNA (i.e. SRS).

Our gender is much more complicated. Recent studies quoted in various places on this forum and others talk about the recent understandings of the required hormonal washes in utero that are required to generate a brain whose owner we would describe as male. If those washes fail at some level, the thought processes and gender identification become more difficult to place in a single pigeon hole. In some cases the male hormonal washes are very much unsuccessful and the human with what would be considered "male" DNA has no association with the male gender assignments and really is overwhelmed by femininity...and identifies as female.

Thus, birth gender is fixed by biology. Gender is a matter of biology and socialization. Those things that we do to align our perceived gender and our bodies is called art!

IMHO..

Tina

[Foxglove]

I think it's both. We are treated differently based on the gender that others perceive we are, and I think this does affect our human development, at least while growing up. Also, how do we know that our perceived gender is similar/dissimilar to other people of the same/different sex? For example, I know and feel that I am a woman, I have a woman's body that I treasure, but how do I know that I don't feel internally the same as my brother? His temperament is similar to mine in many ways.

I can also perceive vast differences between myself and the super, ultra-girly females (the ones who wear pink and go "ewww" when they see a bug), and ultra athletic, frou-frou-less females who don't care to wear makeup and skirts. I see myself as somewhere between these two extremes, but if we are to compare how the frou-frou-less athletic woman feels to the girly-girl woman, then how do we know that they feel they are the same gender at all, even though both will say that they are without any doubt, women?

I don't think that we are solely who we think we are, since we have no way of knowing how others feel to compare and also we are not always objective about ourselves. . .

Reine, I think this is a good post. You're making some good points here, which allow me to state something that I've come to feel is valid. Often on this forum, it's suggested by GG's that we T-girls cannot possibly know what it feels like to be feminine. My question is: how do you know we can't? What does a GG feel? As you're pointing out yourself, different GG's quite possibly feel very differently about themselves and yet would (correctly) assert that they're female/feminine. But how can a GG get inside my mind/heart and know what I'm feeling? How then can she say that my feelings aren't feminine?

As a transwoman I do have a certain advantage over GG's. Having been immersed in the male world for so long, I do have a feel for what it's like to be masculine. So I do have a point of comparison. When I get out all done up, as I have been doing lately, I don't feel masculine at all. Exactly the contrary. Which is why I claim to feel feminine because I feel exactly the reverse of what I've so often felt before.

Obviously I cannot claim that I feel the same way you do. I have no way of knowing what you feel. But neither do GG's have any way of knowing what I feel, and so I believe they can't categorically deny that I feel feminine. If someone wants to say that I feel "trans-feminine" as opposed to "GG-feminine", that may or may not be true. I wouldn't bother to argue the point. I do know that I have lots of feelings that I consider "feminine", and what I'm saying here is that I think that anybody who wants to prove me wrong is going to have their work cut out for them.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Sophie_C]

It's easy:

Gender = Mind
Sex = Physical Body

Done.

[Rianna Humble]

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) is an international, multidisciplinary, professional association whose mission is to promote evidence-based care, education, research, advocacy, public policy, and respect for transgender health.

In the glossary of the current Standards of Care, they offer certain definitions and cite authoritative publications that support these definitions. One of the authorities they cite for Gender Identitiy is a publication from 1964. The definition that they give reads as follows:

Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or a woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch) (Bockting, 1999; Stoller, 1964).

They also define Gender Dysphoria thus:

Gender dysphoria: Distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b).

From this I note that for almost half a century authoritative figures in the world of health have made a difference between Sex and Gender

Other studies have confirmed a biophysical difference between cis-men and trans-women and between cis-women and trans-men especially in the size and structure of the brain

[ReineD]

Often on this forum, it's suggested by GG's that we T-girls cannot possibly know what it feels like to be feminine. My question is: how do you know we can't?

Without going back and retrieving all such comments to see how they were specifically worded, my sense is that GGs do not dispute the fact that CDers want to feel feminine. They rather balk at the statements that CDers know what it is like to BE a woman. These are two different things. When a CDer says that he feels he is a woman because he is all dressed up with makeup, the GGs dispute this because they know that to be a woman is so much more than mere adornment.

A woman has grown up being treated differently because she is a woman and she has not experienced the male privilege that men experience. She likely makes less money at her job and even though women are advancing in terms of careers, they still lag behind men in the boardroom and executive offices. If she has children (and most GGs here are married and with kids), she has also experienced pregnancy and birth with all the hormones that are released during this period of time, in addition to the hormones released during her monthly cycle. She has also likely noticed the difference between how she handles the kids and household chores, compared to her husband. And last, she has had less testosterone exposure than men, even though I am not getting into a discussion here on the effects of testosterone and estrogen on the psyche in addition to the body. So I do agree that CDers cannot possibly know what it feels like to be a woman under these circumstances and I understand what the GGs are saying.

This does not mean that male-bodied individuals cannot be nurturing, or female-bodied individuals cannot be competitive.

[Foxglove]

Without going back and retrieving all such comments to see how they were specifically worded, my sense is that GGs do not dispute the fact that CDers want to feel feminine. They rather balk at the statements that CDers know what it is like to BE a woman. These are two different things. When a CDer says that he feels he is a woman because he is all dressed up with makeup, the GGs dispute this because they know that to be a woman is so much more than mere adornment.

Well, if that's what they're saying, I wouldn't argue with that.