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Thread: Transpeople are less honest

  1. #1
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    Transpeople are less honest

    Hi, Everybody!

    I was dismayed a couple of days ago to come across a recently completed study that shows that on the whole transpeople are less honest than cispeople. I didn’t want to believe it, of course, but this was a study conducted by a reputable psychologist at a reputable university. I myself believe that there’s never any advantage in ignoring reality. It’s no good shutting your eyes to evidence simply because you don’t like what that evidence is telling you.

    At any rate, you can read the article and judge for yourselves. Here’s a link. . .


    Well, actually, there’s not any link because there’s not any such article or study. As some of you may have guessed, I was making it all up. Why? Because as usual I’m being a cute, little hoor?

    No, it’s because the last few days have been a bit of a downer for me. One of our members had a really bad experience that was depressing for a lot of us. You can see her thread here if you haven’t already seen it:

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...got-laughed-at

    Then some of us got word of the Moore/Burchill affair, which was hardly cheerful news:

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...-British-media

    Finally, I was on the receiving end of an insult from one of my contacts (who is obviously no longer a contact)—an insult that was so breath-taking in its flippancy, impudence and artistry that, looking at it objectively, I couldn’t help but admire it. If you’ve never had first-hand experience of chutzpah, I can assure you it’s quite devastating.

    In the midst of all this a thought occurred to me: lots of cispeople don’t like us, but when have they ever presented any sort of evidence that would justify their dislike? Are there any studies out there that show that we’re less honest than cispeople; that generally speaking we’re less moral; that we make worse parents, friends or neighbors; that we’re less intelligent; that we’re less competent at our jobs; that we’re less kind, generous, sensitive or caring? In a word, is there any evidence whatsoever that we’re worse people than they?

    None that I know of, and none that any trans-hater has ever thrown in my face. No, the only crime that we can be convicted of is being different, upsetting their neat little notions of the male-female divide, overturning their carefully-packaged little world-view.

    I think there are some things we should always bear in mind. First of all, bigotry is a poison. Depending on circumstances it can poison the lives of its targets—but it always, unfailingly poisons the life of its possessor.

    Bigots are very unhappy people. Consider the racist who hates black people: everywhere he looks he sees something that makes him unhappy. Black people aren’t going to go away. He may make them unhappy from time to time, but he can never escape his own unhappiness. If he’d abandon his bigotry, he’d be much happier, but he can’t do that.

    When I receive an anti-trans insult, being the sort of person I am, I brood over it for a while. Eventually, however, I do forget about it. But it remains with the bigot. The bigot is always stewing in his own juices. As odd as it may sound, in recent times, whenever I see an act of bigotry, I find myself thinking, “You poor man/woman! You’re really unhappy, aren’t you?”

    Let’s allow two ancient thinkers to come to our rescue:

    Heraclitus: “A man’s character is his fate.”
    Marcus Aurelius: “To refrain from imitation is the best revenge.”

    Pity the bigot. It is his fate to always and forever be a bigot, i.e. a poisoned and unhappy individual. Do you find yourself sometimes wanting revenge against a bigot? Forget it. He’s already getting it for you. Or if you insist on getting it yourself, then don’t be a bigot like him.

    I was thinking I should perhaps make this my mantra:

    It’s beneath me to get upset at something that’s beneath me.

    Bigotry is certainly beneath me.

    I was also thinking this: often we’re unhappy because we don’t keep score. We seem to remember the nastiness shown us, but do we always remember the acts of kindness that people show us? Yes, this man was nasty, that woman was unkind—but how many other people did I meet today who were perfectly decent to me?

    We seem to remember the nastiness. I think one reason may be that we regard kindness as our due. We take it for granted, so that when we experience it, we don’t really note it. To nastiness, which we regard as an outrage, as if it were not as much a part of the natural order of things as kindness, we react strongly.

    There’s also the fact that nastiness is often a more marked event than kindness. I went into town this morning and consider what I experienced: I was served meat at the butcher’s counter; my purchases were checked out at the cash register; I returned a book and a DVD at the library; I was served a cup of coffee in a café; I had a bit of business to take care of with my landlord, and he called me “Annabelle”, something that’s difficult for him to do.

    All of these are small things, but they add up to something much larger. Given that in every instance I was shown kindness and friendliness, I had a very nice morning and I came out of it a happy girl. We don’t keep score—so we often let one sharp insult outweigh any number of smaller kindnesses.

    I’m the type who keeps score, though. Ever since I came out in early November, I’ve been keeping a diary, recording the acts of kindness and the acts of unkindness I’ve experienced. Kindness has from the start left Unkindness trailing miles behind. It’s never been anything but a one-horse race.

    So why do I let a few bigots get me down? No real reason—apart from the fact that I often forget how to think properly.

    Best wishes, Annabelle

  2. #2
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    Annabelle, does that mean that the sky is falling.
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  3. #3
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    I don't think so.

  4. #4
    Member Plasibeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    In the midst of all this a thought occurred to me: lots of cispeople don’t like us, but when have they ever presented any sort of evidence that would justify their dislike? Are there any studies out there that show that we’re less honest than cispeople; that generally speaking we’re less moral; that we make worse parents, friends or neighbors; that we’re less intelligent; that we’re less competent at our jobs; that we’re less kind, generous, sensitive or caring? In a word, is there any evidence whatsoever that we’re worse people than they?

    None that I know of, and none that any trans-hater has ever thrown in my face. No, the only crime that we can be convicted of is being different, upsetting their neat little notions of the male-female divide, overturning their carefully-packaged little world-view.
    But that's exactly it. Religious overtones aside, it's simply a matter of the fact that we are not considered normal to society. Of course that is changing, but still. Our society is binary gendered and never the twain shall meet. This is so ingrained that it's most instinctual to most people. I know of a three year old girl who has seen me in both modes since the day she was born, her mother is one of my best friends and still occasionally this little girl will tell me that Im not a girl when en femme. I know she doesn't get it from surrounding people (the crowd is VERY LGBT friendly) but yet something has influenced her t this mind state so. . . yeah.

    An interesting side note, if we as transgendered people of all stripes are essentially forcing society to become Trinary(?) this holds good things for our future. Some philosopher (me) believes that if the human race actually had three different genders that our potential as a race would be increased into a three dimensional exponential growth. I base this off of computer science. The key to making computers sentient is to stop using binary code and start using trinary code or more like the brain does.
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    Part Time Lesbian Diva CassandraSmith's Avatar
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    Well, I've led a life of deception and secrecy myself and I suppose one could say that I'm not being honest about who I am. That was my first thought on reading your title. But I thought that seemed a little harsh in that we're just trying to avoid persecution and I really don't want to be a bother to people or upset them.

    I read some of the threads and I'm kind of blown away that anyone would even target us formally like that? I mean, other than trolling (which is really what those articles seem to be), there's no real point as we don't have some kind of history as a militant or dangerous group right?

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    I don't care much for their study...I am me and thats it !!! How honest are they ???

    How honest are priests ????
    What does not kill us makes us stronger !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasibeau View Post
    Our society is binary gendered and never the twain shall meet. This is so ingrained that it's most instinctual to most people.
    This is an interesting idea, and I think I agree with it. Transpeople commonly feel guilt and shame about being what they are. Some people say it's because society teaches us to be ashamed. I think that's true, but I think there may be more to it. I think that this guilt and shame may arise spontaneously in us: we instinctively feel there's something wrong with us. The binary view of the sexes maybe as innate in us as it is in cispeople. That's why trans children need counseling and education as early as possible in their lives--so they can start getting rid of their guilt and shame as soon as they can.

    This is just a notion of mine. I'm hardly in a position to prove it's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by CassandraSmith View Post
    Well, I've led a life of deception and secrecy myself and I suppose one could say that I'm not being honest about who I am. That was my first thought on reading your title. But I thought that seemed a little harsh . . .
    Just to clarify in case it's necessary: I haven't said that I consider transpeople dishonest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Courtneigh View Post
    I don't care much for their study...I am me and thats it !!! How honest are they ???

    How honest are priests ????
    As I said, there wasn't any such study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post

    Well, actually, there’s not any link because there’s not any such article or study. As some of you may have guessed, I was making it all up.
    Last edited by Foxglove; 01-19-2013 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Added comment

  8. #8
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    It doesn't matter if you are male or female. It doesn't matter if you are straight or LBGT. It doesn't matter if you are black, white, or Asian. It doesn't matter if you are Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. There will always be someone in the crowd that thinks they are better than you.

    Do not allow one or two idiots ruin your day. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and continue being you. Think of how many people you had contact with that day. How many treated you fairly. How many actually smiled when they acknowledged you. What really matters is, how are you going to show the world that you are not someone who is different? I have always tried to live by "Do unto to others as you would have them do unto you". It can take some time but I haven't been treated differently in many years.

    LBGT are some of the most honest reliable people I have known.
    Last edited by Jorja; 01-19-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  9. #9
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Just remember that keeping a secret is not the same as being dishonest.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    Discrimination is by it’s very nature without foundation. That’s what makes it so distasteful; there is no justifiable rationale for adopting the proponent’s position, no quantifiable data exists that supports the thesis. Even for those who hold no religious beliefs often it’s those religious teachings that have so deeply permeated into all society that create the premise for the bigots stance, thoughts that are so often counter to the subliminal teachings that inspired them.
    The good news is people are slowly becoming more tolerant. The media now portrays gays and lesbians in a far less stereotyped, more positive way in dramas and even the soaps. I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before a CD’ing or transgender character is (hopefully) sympathetically written into a soap. Times will change just perhaps time will move more slowly for our cause.
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  11. #11
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Actually discrimination is a good thing and we all do it. Bigotry is not a good thing as it is done with no justifiable rationale for adopting the proponent’s position, no quantifiable data exists that supports the thesis. Discrimination on the other hand is something we do almost every minute of our lives. When we decide to have milk instead of water, we are discriminating. When we choose a Lexus over a Chevrolet we are discriminating. This is making a choice using our preferences. It used to be a compliment when one was described as a man of discrimination. Lately the word has been misused. I personally choose to spend my time with people who are not bigots or racists, and that is one thing I discriminate about.

    There will always be people who do not like people who are different from themselves. It must be a sad life.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    Extension of an averaged character quality of a group to an individual within a group (without evidence which would suggest it even in absence of group membership) is always wrong (at least if you happen to value accurate judgments and "just" outcomes). I think that many social psychological studies, which are conducted with the intention of remedying problems and understanding differences between groups so that we may structure our society more efficiently, are often ripped from their context and isolated from their intention and either A: Misinterpreted by a member of that group in a way that either offends them or saddens them or B: Used by an out-group member to justify snap judgments they've made about individuals within a group -- saving them the time and effort which is exacted by any degree of deliberate thought. There are several studies which suggest (and I don't necessarily agree with them, I'm merely addressing their existence), for example, that there are fewer women with exceptional talent in mathematics and the sciences. Does this serve as any justification for a judgment as to any one woman's talent in the area of maths and sciences? No, it does not. It is merely a study conducted to determine whether or not a disparity in representation in those fields between male and female gendered persons is due to a systematic error or simply a natural outcome of biological circumstances. It does not mean that, if I am to look at two applications to an internship in a research laboratory which are almost identical, I should accept the male gendered person simply because there may be greater overall talent in his social group, as this individual female applicant could very well be more talented than the male applicant.

    If a study suggests that transgender people are, as a whole, somewhat more dishonest, it has no bearing on who you are as a person. Your honesty as an individual is different from the averaged honesty of a group which you may happen to belong to, and you should judge the honesty of other members in that group as you would judge the honesty of any person -- in accordance with evidence. This study may have been conducted, perhaps, for the purpose of determining whether the transgender person's dishonesty is a natural result of social pressures which are unique to them. It's not a condemnation, and social scientists, by and large, want to make the world a better place -- not a worse one.
    "None is more cruel and violent than the coward"
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahMarie42 View Post

    If a study suggests that transgender people are, as a whole, somewhat more dishonest, it has no bearing on who you are as a person. Your honesty as an individual is different from the averaged honesty of a group which you may happen to belong to, and you should judge the honesty of other members in that group as you would judge the honesty of any person -- in accordance with evidence. This study may have been conducted, perhaps, for the purpose of determining whether the transgender person's dishonesty is a natural result of social pressures which are unique to them. It's not a condemnation, and social scientists, by and large, want to make the world a better place -- not a worse one.
    Well, yes, except that there wasn't any such study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    Well, actually, there’s not any link because there’s not any such article or study. As some of you may have guessed, I was making it all up.

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    I didn't read that part. I had no reason to assume you were making something up :|

    I think that it applies to any generalization, though. Whether or not you were sincere (to clarify, I mean "sincere" over whether or not there was a study x|). Blahhh.


    In all honesty, my comment was prompted moreso by the discussion on discrimination in relation to observed group averages which was prompted by your post, rather than your post in and of itself.
    Last edited by SarahMarie42; 01-20-2013 at 02:08 AM.
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    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    Annabelle I know you made the statement with sincerity and some insight, quoting references.
    I like others have been dishonest here and I think some lying is in all of us.
    You have prompted a good discussion so I hope to see some supporters come your way as well.
    Thank you for the thoughtful thread any way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahMarie42 View Post
    I didn't read that part. I had no reason to assume you were making something up :|
    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley Sims View Post
    Annabelle I know you made the statement with sincerity and some insight, quoting references.
    Perhaps I should explain something. I thought this would be clear, but it obviously isn't. This was the main point of my post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    In the midst of all this a thought occurred to me: lots of cispeople don’t like us, but when have they ever presented any sort of evidence that would justify their dislike? Are there any studies out there that show that we’re less honest than cispeople; that generally speaking we’re less moral; that we make worse parents, friends or neighbors; that we’re less intelligent; that we’re less competent at our jobs; that we’re less kind, generous, sensitive or caring? In a word, is there any evidence whatsoever that we’re worse people than they?

    None that I know of, and none that any trans-hater has ever thrown in my face.
    So why make up something about a non-existent study? Well, the realization that cispeople have no real criticisms to make of us and that they don't even try to come up with any was something of a shock to me. I'd never thought about that before. So this fictitious study was simply a device to catch people by surprise the same way I was caught by surprise. Something like this:

    "You know there's a study that shows we're less honest than cispeople."
    "No! I don't believe it!"
    "Actually, you're right. There's no such study. That's the point. There never is. There's never any study, survey, statistics showing that we transpeople are in any way worse people than cispeople. But trans-hating cispeople don't care. They don't think they need any hard evidence. As far as they're concerned, we're trans and that's all they need to say. That in itself is proof of what awful people we are."

    And then I go on to point out that this is the essence of bigotry. "Mr A is this--therefore he's automatically this." "Ms B is this--therefore she's automatically this." A bigot doesn't need any hard and fast evidence to prove what he's saying. He believes it goes without saying.

    An example: I was once looking at an article on the net about a transperson who'd committed a crime. One of the comments below the article said, "What can you expect from people like that?" I.e., we're trans--therefore we must be criminals.

    But did this person cite any study showing how many transpeople are criminals, or any study showing that there are more criminals among transpeople as a percentage of our group than there are among cispeople? Of course not. A bigot doesn't need to worry about stuff like that. You're trans--therefore you can be condemned out of hand.

    So to repeat: my fictitious study was simply a device to call people's attention to the fact that there aren't any such studies.

    Best wishes, Annabelle

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