Well said Sheri
Well that's it for me, I'm out of this thread, i have no more words left, I used them all up.
Well said Sheri
Well that's it for me, I'm out of this thread, i have no more words left, I used them all up.
In solitude where we are least alone. Byron
I'm disappointed in you Amelie. Maybe it's time you revisit those anger management classes/therapistshttp://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=17200.Originally Posted by Amelie
Last edited by Sophia Rearen; 12-15-2005 at 09:56 PM.
[SIZE=4]Sophia[/SIZE]
Well said Sherri. Now should I run away like some others?
Sorry you couldn't see my reply Amelie.
You may have been able to understand me better.
[SIZE=4]Sophia[/SIZE]
An excellent piece of reasoning.How can anyone argue against this?
Edited for mean-spirited content by me.
Sorry. I was out of line.
Last edited by TGMarla; 12-16-2005 at 09:53 AM.
Any money found in the laundry is MINE!
"This is no social crisis....this is me having fun!"
www.flickr.com/photos/tgmarla/
If you experience enough of life, you learn not to give others-- especially strangers-- so much power over you.
Some people here should get out more, crossdressed or not.
....we are all made of stardust
A great observation. Too many CDs get hung up on the holy grail of passing which is silly when in fact all that is happening is that you maybe blend into the background from afar.
If people here want the CDs who venture out to be ambassadors then that means we have to interact with the general public, which means we will automatically be clocked. So it is pointless getting fixated on passing, it really does not matter.
As has been said before a positive, confident attitude is all that is required to win others over. If you act "normally" then they will treat you normally.
Being an ambassador is about your positive attitude not about your dress code. If you have a negative attitude towards crossdressing in public then it is probably better that you do stay indoors as people will sense that in you and you will not be doing yourself or anyone else a favor by being out en femme.
Just excellent! This is good reality check. I am passable when I admit myself that I am passable. It doesnot really matter if I am objectively passable and in which amount. Helana this is worth of gold. Deserves separate thread.
Last edited by Stelli; 12-16-2005 at 01:48 AM.
Exactly.
Concentrate on the inside more than the outside and people will accept you.
"Vanity and pride are different things, though the words are often used synonymously. A person may be proud without being vain. Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves; vanity, to what we would have others think of us."-- Jane Austen
"Snobbery is the pride of those who are not sure of their position"-- Berton Braley
Last edited by susandrea; 12-16-2005 at 02:02 AM.
....we are all made of stardust
Sorry for all of my posts, I'm just trying to create a conversation.
Last edited by Sophia Rearen; 12-17-2005 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Out of respect to TG Marla. Thanks Marla
[SIZE=4]Sophia[/SIZE]
I'm sorry Sophia. I apologize. Really, I like you. You're pretty, and obviously intelligent. But really, you just keep going on and on about little or nothing here. It's the only time I responded to this thread at all, because it just didn't elicit any response before. So I admit I was mean and harsh, and I'll just shut up. But really, this whole thing is way out of control with little focus or meaning. I'm begging you, just let it die.
Any money found in the laundry is MINE!
"This is no social crisis....this is me having fun!"
www.flickr.com/photos/tgmarla/
Tg Marla,
Thank you for your apology. Accepted. It's not really up to me to let it die. I kind of wish it did as well. Might I add how ironic the death of this thread is. Who would want to reply now? For fear of reprisal. We're doing it to ourselves. If that's the perception we're displaying, than why would the shy reply? In essense, this thread has come full circle. The number of reply's have dropped off do to the conversation turning negative. However, when I wake and log on and see replies such as yours, I have to reply? I am not going to take it laying down. I wanted to add to the previous reply, but for fear of being too long winded; the bulk of the excellent content here was provided by others such as, Becky, Amelie, Susan, Helena, Marlena Tammycd, Tiffany and others. They did the bulk of the work. I'm sure they were offended by you as well. They are much more intelligent than I. There was plenty of good work here. I am not going to summarize. I don't feel that's my place since, I've received such negative reaction from a thread that was intended to do good for the crossdresser, in particular the closeted CD. So now I'll just go back to the main board and read threads such as Emily Howard's NEVER GOING OUT AGAIN! I hope somebody else can help this girl. Because I certainly can't.
Last edited by Sophia Rearen; 12-16-2005 at 01:45 PM.
[SIZE=4]Sophia[/SIZE]
This is a good point...
Keep repeating to yourself...
"It's only words in cyberspace..."
"It's only words in cyberspace..."
"It's only words in cyberspace..."
*NOT* always true...
Again...*NOT* always true...Being an ambassador is about your positive attitude not about your dress code.
Again...*NOT* always true...
Kathryn, I just have to say something to you, but please know that it is said in a friendly, non-adversarial spirit.
You keep harping in thread after thread on a single negative point about interacting with the public. We get it, okay? You seem to think we're all missing this big issue, but actually it's you who is missing the bigger picture. We all know the potential for unpleasantness exists, but some of us who have had numerous good experiences know that going out can be rewarding in spite of the risk ... and we have sense enough to try to minimize that risk. You're obviously terrified at the prospect of confrontation, but not all of us are.
And your 100% passable rule is just silly. In the first place, passable is largely a myth, and secondly, it doesn't matter. In fact, there is a legitimate school of thought, primarily among younger CDs, that passing isn't even all that interesting a goal. What is more interesting is the expression of a femininity that challenges conventional gender perceptions.
Finally, I presume from the things that you have said that you have zero experience going out en femme, so you really don't know what you're talking about. You speak only from suspicion or paranoia. It's probably true that you can't go out in the town where you live - I can't either - but that does not mean that there is nowhere for you to go. If you have no desire to go out, fine, but don't try to impose that restriction on the rest of us. And if you do secretly have a desire to go out, then get in your car and go somewhere where you aren't known, where you can circulate safely. My bet is you'll be glad you did.
So please, give us a break on the constant reality checks, okay? And please try to let some of the things we're saying about freedom of expression and promoting acceptance sink in a little bit, okay? Try to get your mind around the fact that maybe it is you who could learn a thing or two.
Love and peace.
Well, if you notice, I usually state that this is simply "my opinion". I certainly would never expect everyone to have the same opinion.
Point taken.So please, give us a break on the constant reality checks, okay?
Try to get your mind around the fact that maybe it is you who could learn a thing or two.
PS - But I still won't ever agree that it's ok for an adult to dress like a little girl in public...
Last edited by KathrynW; 12-16-2005 at 04:36 PM.
I have got just one word for you all........ RESPECT.
I am away for a day and you all start tearing each other to pieces. Some of you are behaving like a bunch of very petty, self righteous people! Kinda just like the ones we BITCH about gaining acceptance from. I have never in my life felt compeled to hate somone just because of the way they look. OK, sure, I may have reservations about approaching them, or may even be afraid of them, but that is because I DO NOT KNOW THEM AS A PERSON! In the end, there are good and bad in every group, sex, gender, race, you name it. WE are just people! Sometimes you will miss a hell of an opportunity to meet some wonderful people, if YOU JUDGE OTHERS BASED ON YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND OPINIONS.
BTW, I have personally experienced one other group who tend to severly judge others based soley on thier physical appearance, and thier attire.... women. And in my experience, that phenomenon tends to transcend racial, economical, and and cutural bounds. And I think that women are incedible and choose to emulate thier physical appearance and emotional balance all the time.
First impressions are a bitch! Many of us live and die by first impressions. Once you offend SOME people's senses, ie. make a bad first impression, you can never get over that with them. I personally don't conduct myself that way, and always am willing to give somone the benefit of the doubt. But face it, some people are just closed minded, know it alls.
If I were going for a job interview, I would shower, shave, and wear some nice attire. I would be polite and courteous. I would do my best to present a POSITIVE image of myself. That also holds true when I meet somone for the first time. This is how I conduct my life. If you do not subscribe to these beliefs...I realy don't care, its your life.
I would and will apply this same methodology to myself as a CD, whenever anyone else is present. I do not care what anybody does in private. And what I do in private, or how I dress, in private, is my bussiness. When out in public though, its everyone who I come in contact with's bussiness.
I do not wish to see anyone, a woman, a man, heterosexual, homosexual, bi, TG, TS, anyone, acting in a lewd or explicit manor in the public eye. Its just bad taste, and inappropriate because you never know when some little kid is gonna walk in. RESPECT..... I believe that If I want the respect of others, I have to respect them.. You get back what you put out. What goes around, comes around. Do these sound familiar?
If I was with my grandmother, or my wife, or with a child, I wouldn't want anybody acting in a manor that is unaccpetable in public. And deep down, we all know, we have that little inner voice, that tells us when something is not appropriate. I cannot describe obscenity, but I know it when I see it. There, you have made me quote a conservative justice! Again, I do not care what anybody does behind closed doors, or with a group a similarlly minded people in a private setting. (as long as no one gets hurt or has something forced upon them, or is taken advantage of) But when in the Public EYE, we are all, (read - everybody, every label) or should be, accountable, and responsible, by our actions, our conversations, our dress, whatever, to behave in a way that is not offensive to the general population.
I know, I know, that some say, BS, I do not have to curtail my behavior or limit my self expression for anybody. YOU live in a SOCIETY. If you do not want to care for, and respect other members of that SOCIETY, then go away and start your own SOCIETY. Look, we are complaining in OUR OWN COMMUNITY, about the same things that we bitch about with respect to our plight in this society. My goodness people, are we really just a bunch of hypocrits?
This is unbelievable. Here we all are, here for the support that some of us are desperately seeking from those in our lives, and we are tearing ourselves apart. WE ALL HAVE TO BE BETTER PEOPLE! We have to be better than those who would cast us out just because we exist. We have to turn the other cheek. Look, I am not a very religous person. I am spiritual though, and believe that we must do unto others...
We are sitting here complaining about a CD in a little girls dress, sitting in a restaurant eating, Or a Goth CD, or any other type, or label that can be applied as meant to offend our senses. Number one, we are doing the very same thing we are complaining about society and its acceptance of us in general. Number two we are casting stones at people who are different than us. Maybe that is the same point, I am starting to get confused.
If this statement offends you, I apologise in advance.
We cannot go around in the world without a care about how our actions impact other people around us. It is just not civil. And we live in a civilization.
In a perfect world, the sex of your body, the color of your skin, your gender identity, your sexual preference, your economical staus, your religious beliefs, etc., etc., etc. would not and should not matter. WE are human beings, and as such deserve dignity and repsect from other human beings. And until such a time you do something that is detrimental to others, or society and the world as a whole, shall receive it from me.
I believe that society, and the rules it creates exist because as a collective, we know that we need it. My point is, That without rules of accepted behavior, there are those among us (us as in the human race) who would take advantage of, and not give any regard to others in society, and IMHO, that is just wrong. The world would be better off without humans. We tend to, when living without fear of reprocussion or consequence, become pretty terrible beings. The fear of God exists, because without it, I feel that this world would be a horrible place to try and survive. And we all have our own ideas about God, or whatever it is that you call your idea of the Supreme Being, and what is right or wrong. And when we offend the sense of right in the general population, just because we are different and we exist, we have to work extra hard to gain thier trust and respect, so we can live our lives they way we wish within the "accepted" societal norms. I know it shouldn't be tht way, BUT IT IS.
So while I really don't care why you CD, whether its a fetish, a gender expression, an experiment, a lifestyle, whatever it is to you, Is it really appropriate behavior for a person who is an adult, to be dressed as a little child in a public place? I am not talking about a Goth person, A person who is tattooed from head to toe, A person who wears peircings all over the place, An adult MTF or FTM CD, TG, TS who is acting like an ADULT, I hope you get the point. We cannot seem to get societyies acceptance of us when we wish to dress and be percieved as the opposite gender. Isn't a little bit of a stretch to EXPECT acceptance of an adult dressed as a little girl in a PUBLIC place? Come on, THEY already think we are freaks, and probably worry about us corrupting thier kids.
So yes, lets change PERCERPTIONS. Let us as a community, be BETTER people. Volunteer to help those less fourtunate, Become a mentor, Volunteer for civil service, Be kind, Be courteous, Be thoughtful and repsectful of others, Give to charity, Be the best people we can be. Regardless of the clothes you happen to wear.
Sarah
"So Often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key" The Eagles
[SIZE=3]Keep in mind not all of us dress like "little girls." Some of us dress our age and perhaps slightly younger.Well, if you notice, I usually state that this is simply "my opinion". I certainly would never expect everyone to have the same opinion.
Point taken.
PS - But I still won't ever agree that it's ok for an adult to dress like a little girl in public...
I won't ever agree either that it is good for a forum to have a member with such a negative attitude.[/SIZE]
Tammy
All good points as usual. For sure this thread got overly idealist. In order to defend the right to free expression we have to stretch points beyond the reality of everyday life.
Your basic premise is that there are some images such as the little girl outfit which are obviously offensive to society and so oversteps the mark. That when in public we have a duty not to be deliberately offensive to others. We all understand this point of view but live with it everyday but there is a bigger picture to consider.
Whereas a short skirt is seemed as acceptable in a big city, go to a conservative country town and it would be deemed ****ty and offensive. Does that mean before entering any town we should first check what the tolerance level is so that they can choose appropriate attire so as not to cause offense. Would you ask your wife and daughters to cover up their arms and legs when passing in front of your Muslim neighbors house?
Society is not definable, it is a collection of numerous society sub-sets usually divided up among race, religion, age, gender, location etc each with their own ideas of what is acceptable. Is there a standard set of measurements which define what length of skirt is considered acceptable or not? The problem is that by simply stepping outside your house you are pretty much guaranteed to offend somebody somehow. How can we take into account the diverse viewpoints of so many others.
Going back to the little girl outfit. You are aware that dressing up as little girls is a big craze in Japan. Many Japanese girls delight in dressing up as stereotypical young girls and have become celebrities. They walk through the streets and get lots of admirers. Now if a similar fashion trend were to occur here and our GGs began dressing up like little girls in public, would it now be ok for us CDs to do the same without offending anybody?
When you say society finds offense at the little girl outfit, what you are really saying is that you are offended by it. Yes there are many others who share your point of view, but there are others who do not. Who is right and who is wrong?
As our society becomes more cosmopolitan, it is becoming increasingly clear that the old standards of "decency" are no longer applicable, there is just too much diversity out there to control. Society is learning that it has to change from common standards to "anything goes". You may not like that personally but you will need to recognize it. We are moving towards a new notion that the real offense is not being tolerant of others' freedom of expression. But because society is made up of numerous sub-sets each travelling at different speeds towards this new reality, there is an inevitable conflict between those who wish to hold onto traditional standards and those who want to push for liberal standards.
So the idea that some things are universally offensive is not really the case. We make up our own realities to fit in with our own value judgements and hope to persuade others to follow suit. Most of us conform to recognizable rules of decency because it makes life easy and controllable, but which unfortunatley automatically alienates some people for our benefit. These rules of decency are in constant flux and change with every new generation which makes notions like "offensive" a moving target.
Life is just not that simple anymore
Just a funny note, while reading Helena's reply, very nice btw, I noticed there was 3 advertisements at the bottom of the page. They were all titled " What Not To Wear"
Last edited by Sophia Rearen; 12-17-2005 at 10:18 AM.
[SIZE=4]Sophia[/SIZE]
Thankfully that's just your opinion or else a lot people would have some pretty hurt feelings.IMHO, unless a person can pass 100% undetected as female, they shouldn't CD in public...period. If you can't pass 100% and still want to push the envelope...be prepared to deal with the consequences (if there are any) of your actions. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it.
That's no different than saying if a person weighs more than some model on the cover of a magazine, they shouldn't go out in public. When you have opinions like that, it puts you on the slippery slope of hypocrisy.
Hail Satin!
Kathryn, a house divided against itself cannot stand. In this thread as well as in others, your opinions seem to be causing more division and harm than constructive feedback and productive discourse.Well, if you notice, I usually state that this is simply "my opinion". I certainly would never expect everyone to have the same opinion.
Point taken.
PS - But I still won't ever agree that it's ok for an adult to dress like a little girl in public...
And thats my opinion, like it or not.
[SIZE=3]ummmm...what "house" are you referring to?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Well...sometimes the voice of reason & reality isn't always the most popular...In this thread as well as in others, your opinions seem to be causing more division and harm than constructive feedback and productive discourse.
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
Kathryn, a house divided against itself cannot stand. In this thread as well as in others, your opinions seem to be causing more division and harm than constructive feedback and productive discourse.
Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof [American Heritage Disctionary]
While this thread has diverged significantly from its original intent, it has been interesting and, I think, enlightening. But attcking an opinion and disagreeing with one are two different things. If a house be divided by matters of opinion, then that is a house of cards, indeed.
If you disagree, state your opinion, but agree that others may also disagree.
That's called an enlightened discussion.
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't ... you're right
Henry Ford
I have no problem accepting this definition of opinion. I've never claimed my opinion was the only one, or proved anything, it's simply an opinion, like all other opinions here. Let's leave it at that.While this thread has diverged significantly from its original intent, it has been interesting and, I think, enlightening. But attacking an opinion and disagreeing with one are two different things. If a house be divided by matters of opinion, then that is a house of cards, indeed.If you disagree, state your opinion, but agree that others may also disagree.That's called an enlightened discussion.
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