Societal Gender roles/ acceptance and femininity

[Greenie]

Dear forum members,

I would like to discuss some of the latest topics of conversation between my SO and myself. Sorry for the long post, but it took me a long time to make it sound intelligent and not like a ramble. Lol

I understand more and more while reading these forums that there is no way to describe everyone with one general "blanket." This is what makes this forum so great. I have been having some discussion about gender, identity and the roles that society forces upon us at a young age with my SO.

Acceptance has been a bumpy road for us. We were talking about how it may be our different views on what defines femininity. He says that because I was born a woman I exude a feminine nature regardless and he has to try harder. I understand that, but I don't understand the kind of woman that some CDers want to look like.

In the beginning of my journey to acceptance I looked up crossdressers on facebook. There is a page where tons of CD's from all over post their pictures. I was totally freaked out. These CD's didn't look like real women to me. Not because they weren't passable (many of them were), but because to me a real woman can be sexy but still be classy. There was so much boobs and ass and sexy faces, super short mini skirts, 6+ inch heels and way to much makeup (I have seen passable but natural makeup on tons of beautiful CD women, this was like EXTREME). I thought it this really what a CD looks like? I have come to learn that that's not true of all CD's but of quite a few.

It is just me or are CD's who dress this extreme kind of sexist? Helen Boyd describes in her book that men who CD have an extremely sexist view of women and what makes them feminine. Maybe this declines with age and wisdom, many of the Tgirls and CD's on here are sexy AND classy which I feel is great. Ya'll are the role models I hope my BF can follow on this journey.


I guess I feel this way of dress is a gender bias in itself. For example: When women have a hard time grasping what it means for their SO to be a CD. I think its because of the way they choose to be more feminine in their dress. However its easy to point out that women do not understand upfront because of the gender identities that have been socially constructed since birth. Its easy to say that well you just have learned that men are men and women are women and we need to change the way we look at gender. However aren't the women that our boyfriends want to become also socially constructed? Society is what decided that heels, skirts and dresses and makeup make you feminine? They have learned what is feminine and what women "should" look like, due to the same social constructs they are asking us to break down to accept them. I don't have a problem with breaking down these gender walls, but I guess I would like to know that it can be reciprocated.

As a woman when I need to dress up for work or something formal, the first items of clothing I take off when I get home are my bra and tights and high heels! Lol. Maybe I am kind of a feminist, but I don't really think that these items of clothing make me feminine. I actually HATE wearing them. The make most women uncomfortable, they are restrictive. Also, I feel most sexy in tight jeans and a super cute top. This could also be due to my nature. Both in relationships with men and women I have been the dominant one. Naturally I have kind of a hard personality and even in girl clothes and my SO in boy clothes even people we don't know well point out he is the softer, more feminine personality. I guess I am the alpha male in all aspects of our relationship. lol.

I talked with my SO about this. He tried really hard to see it from my point of view and said that mostly he thinks I am right. I obviously don't think its going to change what he wants (tights and dresses and heels), but he is going to be a little more sensitive to the fact that I feel his definition of feminine doesn't even apply to a real woman! I helped him pick out a dress and it was something I would wear.

The worst part is, its not that I am unaccepting, I just don't understand why full dress is so elaborate! The makeup and the hair I understand, they are to hide the apparent masculine features. But why do (SOME) CDers for lack of a better word dress kinda trashy? I am a modest woman and I RESPECT my body. I would hope that while dressing as a woman CDers would respect not only other women but themselves as the woman they want to become. Dressing like that leads to being objectified sexually, not acceptance and genuine pass-ability (IMHO)


I told my BF that even if I was 100 percent okay with the CDing, I still would want him in femme mode, to look what I considered a sexy, classy woman.

So basically I want to ask people if they see where I am coming from? Or has anyone ever considered this view before? Am I crazy? Maybe we can discuss gender roles and societal pressures?


Greenie AKA KAE

p.s. I feel so blessed to have a forum to discuss this in. Thanks in advance everyone who participates.

[Jacqueline Winona]

totally get you point on this. Thinking of it from your BF's point of view, we often so rarely get to express this side of ourselves that we go a little overboard, trying to look sexy rather than trying to blend in, look like most women would, etc. It's a hard balance to strike for a CD, but you're point is well taken. My style is more classic than anything else (from what I've seen, read, etc., I really don't feel qualified to say this on personal experience). Everyone tells me my legs are great, but I don't think I'd go with a micro mini even if it is true.

[Ineke Vashon]

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Greenie. And, no, you're not crazy. As a CDer I fully support your view that a CDer ought to present herself well, classy, not trashy. Too 'celebrate' femininity rather than making 'female' look cheap. But, that's my personal view. It takes all kinds and that of course goes for GGs as well.

Your SO is lucky to have you.

Ineke

[DawnD]

Kae: I have often asked myself this same question. And my So and I have had the conversation many times. I too HATE wearing typical women's wear. Bra's are personal torture devices if you ask me. Heels make my feet feel like they're on fire. Neither of which make me feel sexy.

What does make me feel sexy is a nice top and jeans, good hair, and good makeup. But that's what makes me feel sexy. My SO, he has other things that make him feel sexy. Just like all the other girls here have their own. I may not understand why someone would feel sexy dressing in heels, leather, and mask. But I don't have to. To each their own.

[Jenniferathome]

Hi Greenie,

I think there is a fetish element who always go for "whorish" looking attire. They may think it is "sexy" but it is well into ****ish or whorish. Now, I think for many new cross dressers, the archetype in our heads of a woman is also somewhat sexy. So we may try to emulate that look in our minds but the result is ****ty. I think most cross dressers come into their own regarding clothing and the trend I see here is that the trend is towards conservative or "average." We often use the term "blend" here. It may be that the fetish types tend to display themselves more. I also agree that sexy and classy can go hand in hand.

Regarding your comment about removing your heels and other restrictive garments, that makes perfect sense but to a cross dresser with limited time dressing, wearing anything is better than not wearing something, at times. As for a bra, we really need it to hold forms so like it or not, it's a necessary evil.

In the end, society does decide what the roles of men and women are and with that clothing, hair, shoes, even mannerisms. I don't think it's worth our energy to debate why something is, it is. We need to manage our lives to prevent those kinds of pressures from limiting us.

[flatlander_48]

I think if you ask 100 people here you will get 100 definitions of what they consider to be feminine. It would probably range anywhere from June Cleaver to someone who could easily join Dykes and Bikes and everything in between. Where the street walker look fits in here, I don't know. But, the reality is that we all got imprinted in different ways in which to define femininity. And that, in turn, determines how one chooses to look...

[Allison Chaynes]

Hi Greenie,

I think it is a growth thing too. Most of us probably start with the "whorish" look and eventually realize it's uncomfortable. It's interesting you bring this up, because the more subdued I am with my dressing, the more my wife seems accepting of it. I told her I wanted to look like someone we could both be OK with, so she's more willing to help as a result. Probably doesn't hurt that in exchange for her trying to to be more accepting, I try to do more things for her that I may not really want to, like church every Wednesday and taking care of most of the housework until I find a new job.

Actually the last time we talked about it, I told her I kind of liked doing the housewife thing at times and dressing the part. She liked that, as long as it's not all the time.

[bridget thronton]

I do not ever want to be viewed as dressing to look like a **** - modest and classy sounds good to me

[Beverley Sims]

Kae,
When in an experimental mood I will wear something silly or out of the norm.
A tutu, maids uniform, something provocative or a wedding dress.
At all other times I prefer to dress conservatively.
Dressing means you can live out your fantasies when and to somewhat "WHERE" within reason.
When starting out it is all experimentation, look at first time photo posters.
After a while they have had their time and settle into a mould that is comfortable for themselves.
They ask, just as you do, what others think, and are guided by what they experience in practice.

[Kalista Jameson]

Hi Greenie,

I liked your post. I think for some of us crossdressing is kinda like Build-a-Bear. As such, some of us tend to make ourselves up in what we consider pretty and feminine, for whatever reasons we have. For example, I personally adore the look and elegance of women's fashions in the WWII era and go gaga over films that depict that look. It doesn't really have anything to do with women themselves, just the visual aspect and appeal of the clothing. If I could wave a wand and roll back fashions for both guys and gals, we'd all look like we were about to sit down for a fireside chat with FDR and hear about the Axis powers advancing in Europe.

Unfortunately, because the outward presentations are the product of thoughts like mine, what we end up with is a pretty eclectic look, which is hard for many to wrap their heads around, and no matter what, we end up looking a bit odd in. I personally dress for myself and don't connect it with women or my attitude towards them. I have the utmost respect for both genders and see them as equal but different. I just bought a maid outfit, which looks really cute, but has nothing to do with how I see women and their roles in society. It has everything to do with how I look and feel in it.

Anyway, out of time here (working) but wanted to add my thoughts.

Cheers,

Kalista

[noeleena]

Hi

Im involved with a group in Austraila, some 700. of those i know some 200 face to face, at a weekend we had last year we had 85, of us. most are dresser's a few trans i think 4 women & myself , i was in charge of photography plus i had an ofsider to help wjen needed we allso two women doing a writeup concerning dresser's & trans, so some of us were interviewed , i was as well.

Now a few would dress quite ....how do i say it over the top.... like they were looking for a night out, of ..... bed room type night, most were dressed in just normal wear, some for the Ball were all out dressed most very nice,

I would say a good number would push the being Feminine most would be very passable, this of cause is in how they look as to manerisms or interacting like a woman i wont answer that because i did not interact with them because i was busy with my camara,

Myself,

As to the looking sexy never going to happen as to feminine i dont see it in myself though my peer's ( women ) see it differently, spos i am. maybe,
I dress in some lovely clothes long skirts blouse's & tops & go every where, & over sea's,

Sexy & classy..... Oh heck..... if you could meet me youd never say i am. yet fantisy is not something i do.

...noeleena...

[Angela Campbell]

Most of us did not get the chance to grow up as a female and never got to mature as one. Many are still in the phases a very young girl would be in. Some never grow out of it and some do. It is ok to experiment. I prefer to look like a woman of my age, classy middle class.

[Greenie]

Thanks everyone for being receptive to me as I transition through this journey. It is really important to me to get your feedback and a lot of you have told me things that I haven't thought about before. that's why I really wanted to post this.

Jennifer: I understand a little more about that now. CDers not only don't get to wear this much but they are not in the position where the "have to" as often as GG's are. So while dressing is uncommon and fun for them. Its kinda too common and not fun for us. lol. P.S. Your avatar is one of the ones I was thinking of when I thought of CDers on here who looked classy.

Kalista: how you feel in it makes a lot of sense. Occasionally If I put on an outfit and I feel rockin in it, I am totally okay with the restrictive garments for a while. my SO loves lace, and how soft womens jean are, as well as the material. If something doesnt feel right he wont like it, no matter how girly it looks.

[NicoleScott]

Greenie, I can't explain why I crossdress, nor why I need to make up and dress over-the-top. But there is no hidden agenda, no sexism, no desire to disrespect women. I just like that look.
It seems that many people can't pass up the chance to ridicule extreme dressers. They refer to the look they like as "classy" or "more conservative" but never refer to "less conservative" dressers, choosing to use "trashy", "whorish", or even use asterisks for words too dirty to spell out in real letters.
If a gg wears fishnets and six inch heels for her partner in the bedroom, it's "sexy" but on a CDer it's "whorish" or "sl*tty". By the way, not all CDers who post their "extreme" pics online go out like that (OK, some do, but so do some gg's, do you criticize them?) but rather like to share their style preferences with like-minded people online.
I would never ridicule you for hating to wear feminine things like hose and heels and bras. It's your choice. It's my choice to dress...that is, crossdress... as I am driven. You claim "not to be unaccepting" (is that the same as "accepting"?) It's OK to ask for answers to what you don't understand, but it seems like ridicule disguised as inquiry.
Check forum rules about ridiculing others for how they present. Never enforced, though.

[Cheryl T]

Admittedly when I began experimenting with makeup and my own clothing (not borrowed without permission) it was an era of Playboy models and teenage gusto. The most feminine images were those in these magazines (and yes they were a turn on) and in trying to emulate the extreme femininity of these women I too would only dress in the most provocative of clothing. Of course I was in the closet and as such did not have a "wardrobe", I simply had an "outfit". My outfit had to be the sexiest possible to make me feel the most feminine.
I believe that for many this remains true, particularly if they never exit that closet. Personally I have been blessed with an accepting spouse and have been allowed to "mature" as a woman. Gone are the sky-high stilettos, ultra-minis, seamed hose and the like. Now my closet would be viewed as that of any "average" woman. Of course I have some sexy lingerie, but we all enjoy reveling in our femininity from time to time. I have skirts and dresses, but my daily fare is slacks and jeans with a t-shirt or nice top. When I go out you would see only another woman going about her business, not a "WalMartian" or fashionista.
For many this is simply a fetish and they prefer the ultra-femme look, for others like myself I dress for Me, not for the world and I am happy to be me. We come in all shapes and size, all manner of dress, the full gamut of style, just like the rest of the world exhibits it's variations.
Perhaps it's just that many prefer to post pictures in the vein you see and not in the "average" styles that would not attract so much attention.

[Georgia_Maine]

I sometimes think that many CDs are much like 13 year old girls. They're getting that first rush of femininity. Greenie, think about it. How many girls your age did you know that did or wanted to dress really sexy when you we 13-14?

[DonniDarkness]

The worst part is, its not that I am unaccepting, I just don't understand why full dress is so elaborate! The makeup and the hair I understand, they are to hide the apparent masculine features. But why do (SOME) CDers for lack of a better word dress kinda trashy? I am a modest woman and I RESPECT my body. I would hope that while dressing as a woman CDers would respect not only other women but themselves as the woman they want to become. Dressing like that leads to being objectified sexually, not acceptance and genuine pass-ability

Im with NicoleScott on this one.

I think its great that you have an open attitude about CDers and the Trans community, but this statement is kind of one of those backhanded comments we talk about from time to time here.

There is a niche of CDing that is a characterization of onself, that is a portrayal of extreme femininity. Drag Queens and Transvestites are most notorious for this style of dress. The idea of this style comes from a self expression that is driven by the stereotypes of sex, fashion and (how dare i say it) comedy....however it is our own (<---as in..all of us reading this) internalized cynicism towards sex, fashion, and comedy that makes our perspective of this style derogatory towards women.

As long as someone has covered the appropriate parts of their body, who are we to say anything about how another person presents themselves.....But yet we have....and still do....because once a person is involved in a relationship with another Trans*person (SO's, family, or friends) we instantly start to derive cynical assumptions about how this person is going to effect us negatively. If that Trans* is dressed tiny garments and high heels...all of a sudden they are attacking womens rights to be modest, but the truth is ....they feel sexy in these garments, just get there in a different way than your Jeans and a cute top ......If they are all "suited up to the 9's" all of a sudden they are mocking the working woman...But really they just love fitted suits........See my point?

I understand your frustration with your BF though. Most of us go through a awkward fashion phase as we develop our femme selves and my best advice would be: Dont worry the clothes and styles change with time, We kinda go through a "teenage Phase" when we first come out. Our styles progress as we step out into the world, however we will always be "over the top" compared to people who do not know a CD in their daily lives.

-Donni-

[Gillian Gigs]

With the vast majority of CDers being hetro, married men, my first comment is in fact that men are very visual within their nature. Hence I would suspect that your average CDer dresses and spends much time in front of a mirror, or looking at their many self taken photos. To look pretty to the visual person would be the most important thing, whether that be ****ty, whorish, or otherwise within there thinking of what pretty is. Quote; " But why do (SOME) CDers for lack of a better word dress kinda trashy?" This can only be answered by the fact that this must be what they see as being sexy, rather than being feminine. Quote; "I feel most sexy in tight jeans and a super cute top." So, why would one GG feel sexy in a skirt, hoses, and heels when you feel that tight jeans and a super cute top does it for you? The answer is personal choice and variety in life is good. My wife is like you, she can't wait to get out of her bra, hoses and shoes once she gets home. She thinks that I am nuts for wanting to wear pantyhose. I don't know how I would feel if I had to wear a bra, and pantyhose every day, I might feel the same way and take them off the minute I got home. But, even as I am typing this there is something that is saying, but I would like to have the chance to find out. What one person feels is being restrictive in clothing, may be just what someone wants to give them a sense of security. I could never wear tight jeans, but a body shaper and tights is a different thing.

I appreciate your excellent post, it is thought provoking. I would hope that the dialogue will enlighten everyone to accept and understand our differences, even if we can not agree on everything.

[boink]

There's a lot of (good!) complicated stuff in your post here.

Crossdressers dress for a ton of reasons, and what they find attractive/enjoyable/exciting/rewarding/etc. varies greatly. Within the CDing community there are definitely some issues of sexism/misogyny/objectifying male gaze that carry over into clothing choices, but there are also CDers who simply gain pleasure from dressing provocatively, don't intend on passing, are still very much developing their sense of style, or are compensating for a perceived lack of femininity by dressing in a certain way. Sometimes the motivations/attitudes behind these choices can be problematic...and other times they are totally benign. And that's cool. How you want to dress is your choice...

Now, once you bring a partner into your CDing that's when you're responsible to more than just yourself and where someone can legitimately ask why you dress or feel you need to dress in a certain way.

I'm generally a pretty conservative dresser, though it did take me a little while to hone in on my nerdy fem chic style, but my partner and I have definitely had some minor and totally reasonable disagreements about fashion. The important thing was that throughout all of our negotiating of this whole trans thing we were both respectful of each other, our own differing fashion choices, and our motivations behind them. I'm going to wear yoga pants about as often as she wears makeup, but we both know what's comfortable, fun, and what works for both of us. And equally importantly we both respect each other's bodies, and make sure we both feel sexy/attractive/loved (even if we're not always as good at giving ourselves that same degree of love).

You're probably going to need to continue having these discussions with your partner, but keep asking the questions, and helping them to better refine and define their own sense of style and what makes them look and feel good. My motivations and interests in my clothing choices are going to be different than my partners, yours, or your partners, so ultimately the conversation has to be between the two of you.

[Lorna]

Gillian Gigs (above) has summed up very well my own view. Greenie's post is no doubt helpful to many who wrestle with such issues and need to reach an understanding with a spouse or other partner.

I do not go out in public or even get the chance to dress very often. I can come nowhere close to presenting myself as even a moderately attractive woman. It's the experience of wearing female clothing that is so enjoyable and with only limited opportunities to enjoy that experience I would not want to "waste" it by wearing clothes which could almost be unisex - trousers are the obvious example. It goes further, though, because the clothing items that are most interesting to wear are those which are uniquely feminine - so the bras, slips, dresses, skirts, hosiery, heeled shoes, etc. are favourites to explore during those limited opportunities.

As others have said, it might be very different if I was dressing all day and most days or even every day as a woman. On the other hand, when I first started (a long time ago) I was curious to find out what it was like for the girls and young women I knew to have to wear (there was little choice in those days) their stockings, girdles, bras, heels, etc. In many ways that experience taught me that, even though I loved to see the girls dressed in what I regarded as attractive clothes, it was not all that easy for them, going about their many activities dressed in that way. I could understand why a woman wanted to get out of her high heels, take off a tight girdle or change out of a slim skirt when she wanted to relax. It was also no surprise to see that more and more women were adopting more casual forms of dress whenever circumstances allowed.

[Greenie]

To any one I offended, I promise there where no back handed comments in my post. If it seemed that way it was due to my lack ofknowledge and poor word choice. I come from a place of love and I want to understand otherwise I would not be here and would have ended my relationship. I apologize if I made anyone feel otherwise or if they felt attacked. I even private messaged another forun member and rand them through my post ideas first. and i guess to be clear I would also think if a woman was dressed this way that i would have the same feelins. I dont want to hurt anyones personal expression, but when anyone is dressed that way it makes me uncomfortable. Thanks for trying to understand.

Also please be clear, I understand that this is text not voice. Its hard when you don't know someone to take what they are saying one way or another. @ Nicole and Donni I mean absolutely no ridicule or disrespect. If you read that inclination in text please understand I tried to make sure that voice did not come across, even if done poorly. I understand if that's unclear, but I was definitely not ridiculing, and have made myself aware of all forum rules here. Being in a committed relationship with a CD, I really need some support right now. I need love and help in order to better help him. In no way would I ridicule the people I hope would give that to me. I hope you two can look past my obvious unfortunate use of words and please not take offense.

[Gillian Gigs]

I was not offended in way, in fact I am glad to read your candid thoughts and opinions. I would only hope we could all be this open and honest with each other. If we are dressing according to our sexuallity,(TG), or sexiness, (trashy), then we are speaking volumes whether we realize it or not. Stating the obvious!

[kelliT]

book marking for later reading.

[carhill2mn]

Hi "Greenie",

I am a long-time (over 60 years) CD and I am unable to identify with many of the CDs who use the internet sites for some of the same reasons that you stated.

I am one who does my best to "look like a woman and act like a lady". As I am sure you have learned, there is a very broad spectrum of people who CD. Many people join this forum because most of the posts and photos are considered to be "in good taste" even if though there is a wide variety among the members.

Again, "no one size fits all"!

[kelliT]

Greeny, thanks for bringing this topic up. Since my wife found out about kelli I've been exploring my feminine side I had never explored. Dress up only part way felt like I was a guy in a dress. So naturally we all want to look the part. So as my wife tried to be supportive but not interested in seeing full kelli, she buys me things that I am not comfortable wearing around her. But I am comfortable wearing things that I feel feminine such as ladies pants, blouses, shorts underwear. I wear because this she's okay with. And the more I try little things I am coming to terms I don't need the whole deal. We're are all definitely different. Don't know if I made sense just rambling on the bus.