Really,I wonder why that isOriginally Posted by Annette Todd
Why would they be. Many men have sexual relations with TG/TS girls. Wouldn't that be considered a gay act? Or is that the men involved with TG/TS girls want the manly junk in a pretty package. Who knows, I surely don't.
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 04-20-2013 at 10:05 PM.
Please tell me this means what I think it means...
It's nice to know I can be punished for not being born straight/cis.
Punished too hard of a word? Let's try "Dirty ****** doesn't deserve the same rights and freedoms"?
Last edited by whowhatwhen; 04-20-2013 at 09:57 PM.
It sucks that this guy is intolerant. With that said he is one guy not the entire gay community. Intolerance is inherently unreasonable. The reasonable expectation the someone who has experienced intolerance would not inflict it on others fails in the presence of irrational unreasonable nature of intolerance.
Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Oh! no it isn't....
He's just a moron.
I would personally give him the finger.
He gives gays a bad name.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
I have noticed this too. I used to work for a large company that was located in Washington DC, very close to Dupont Circle. At lunch a number of the "guys" would go to lunch together and we would frequently see a number of trans and CD people. The few openly gay guys would make the most derogatory comments about them. I never understood why. Certainly not the same, but seems like a similar situation to me.
Stephanie
Hi,
I have some gay friends well Jos & i do, plus our grandaughter Dejarn,they are pretty neat.
Yet i have been told with no dought i would not be accepted as a female or woman regardless no matter what i did or was done to me surgery wise even if it was a possable to have my womb & evey detail & give birth to my child, they wont accept im female let alone a woman. thier attitude is i can only be a male because i look like one these women are lesbain & we know them well enough over a year at our meetings of 7 women & 3 gay men the men did not have an issue with me .
Gay or lesbain,
Some women are hardliners so wont accept those of us who are intersexed now most men are or seem to not mind though are not at all interested in our issues , that would be quite normal & why should they any way its not an issue,though our friends are quite happy talking about all details & getting to know each other so its just part of converstion,
Now this gets worse, i have talked with some who are trans & dresser's who dont wont to know or be around us because we are intersexed so we are not wonted are not accepted & dont wont anything to do with us in any way shape or form , we are total rejected, & as i soon found out by some here in N Z .
One reason i keeped my mouth shut when i had anything to do with the media papers or N Z T V,
yet i have not been rejected by our Jos & i friends those who have got to know us over the years, ill use normal people = meaning those who have nothing to do with any trans or dresser groups ,
I have been involved with a large group of women 160 yes lesbain those i talked with some 5 years ago were lovely were happy to be next to me be around myself with no thought of oh ... your different your not ...oh... just say it , two planks missing, weird , so not all people regardless of the group or what they do are not all out to reject those of us who are,,,,,different, Some are no matter the person,
Most of my friends & Jos knows quite a few are women they dont dont have any issues with me we do have a gay friend who is gay & likes dressing ,
...noeleena...
It takes all kinds, as they say. But I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this one persons opinion. I know lots of gay men and women who entirely accept me as I am.
Natalie It's up to you how you want to deal with your hairdresser but I bet it would have floored him if you came out as a Cder right then. We've all heard these kind of comments of intolerance. It sucks but it happens quite frequently no matter where you are on the TG scale. There are fractures and intolerance within our own groups on this board. It's just the way it is.
Well very interesting, after reading every comment for two pages I have learned, gay people are human, just as trans people are. Some gay people don't understand, or like trans people.
Some trans people don't think gay people deserve the same rights as every other American, It seems to me, there could be a whole lot more understanding and acceptance in this world, and we should all stop worrying about what rights others have, and work on what rights we want to have! Let's let gays have their rights, and lets all look ahead to the day that we might be treated as just average people ourselves, someday, and not have everyone freaking out about what we wear, or how we walk and talk! Let's work to make everyone equal.
Magic is the art of changing consciousness at will.
This is the crux of the issue. This is an individual, not the voice of a people. Don't rush to judge the group because of one ignorant person. It is ironic and sad about this individual, but that's it. "Gays" can not be brought into this.
The fact is that a****les exist in all venues and situations my friend. It's obvious that what works for some doesn't work for others but being intolerant of the other guy proves nothing.
Second star to the right and straight on till morning
I'm actually not surprised. I have several gay friends who are generally intolerant of crossdressers (although for some reason it seems to be OK during gay pride parades when it is done as a form of mockery). Others are more open. I would not be surprised if the proportion of gays intolerant of crossdressing is about the same as the general population. For that reason I have always wondered why transgendered is lumped in gays and lesbians (GLBT).
Without having read much of what has already been said... On one hand I'm surprised, and on another I'm not. The things they ask from others, a live and let live attitude, for some reason, is not one that they seem to be able to adopt on behalf of people who crossdress. People who are gay often label themselves as "open minded" and some seem to think that if they are gay they are automatically "open minded" and that is just nonsense. On the other hand, I think human beings are generally close minded, prejudice and hypocritical. I think those are often just default our settings and we have to actively work to turn them off. Every month I go out to the local LGBTQ center for our tri-ess meeting and I still get a lot of stares from the LGB's and the Q's. I also often feel confused why we're included in there but yet not so much.
Yes that would have been an interesting moment I'm sure. I just think about his profession though...a hairdresser/stylist. Just from my experiences I find that people in this profession tend to talk too much about other people's lives to other clients. But in their defense they probably hear all kinds of troubles, juicy gossip and other interesting tidbits from all of their clients.
I happen to be in a place where my wife supports me and a hand full of family knows about my lifestyle. But I am not ready for the whole town to know. Hence one of the reasons why I didn't say anything to him...lol.
Jill, I'm not sure which "they" you are referring to. Gay people are not an homogeneous mass any more than any single member of this site can be said to represent the whole membership.
When we adopt an "us and them" attitude to ANY part of society we become guilty of the same lack of tolerrance that we bemoan in others.
As far as I can tell, there are two major reasons why the less prejudiced Lesbians and Gays have associated with our struggle:
- They remember what the Stonewall riots were all about
- They understand that Trans folk are in a similar position with respect to rights as they were 15 to 20 years ago and want to help.
There will always be idiots in every sector of society, lets not turn this into a Gay Bashing thread because Natalie's stylist happens to be an idiot.
{Moderator hat on}
Any further "us and them" posts in this thread will be deleted
{/Moderator hat on}
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This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
we all have a choice. My choice would be to find another hair dresser who liked "me' and didn't insult me by telling me that I didn't know who I was. I would tell him that too as I walked out the door so he could re-evaluate his position.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
My first boyfriend hated the fact that i was a Crossdresser and he derided the TG/TS community all the time. Its why we broke up. Interestingly enough, am now with a bi-woman who loves the fact that I am very feminine. It takes all kinds.
That's the thing, they can't really afford to be but many don't understand that. What isn't understood is that society at large often doesn't seen the distinctions and subtleties that exist in the community. To society at large, we are ALL HOMOS, even though we know differently. Somehow, I don't think you're going to hear Bubba say "Leave those faggots alone. Let's go kick some CD a++.". If society really thought that as crossdressers and transgender people we were truly separate, why is the assumption that we are all gay? I mean, how many here have said that when they came out to someone there first question was "Are you gay?".
While folks revere what happened at Stonewall in the summer of '69, they forget that it was the crossdressers and drag queens that stood up. Remember the quote: "No one is free until we are all free.". We are all somewhere under the umbrella of sexual minorities and it's time that folks act like it.
Isolate any subset of a population and they will immediately set about identifying differences among themselves and often discriminating among part of the subset due to these perceived differences. Look up "paper bag test" to see how this phenomenon affects another group that "should know better."
Eryn
"These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
"She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
"Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]
Many gay men are under tremendous internal pressure to protect their externally presented masculine image in a social setting because they are trying to escape the sterotypical image of a homosexual man as being feminine.
Gender identity as "masculine" has become very important to the homosexual male in a public setting.
Heterosexual men do the exact same thing, where they will react to perceived threats to how they want to be perceived because their sexual identity and their gender identity reinforce each other and this is the same direction homosexual men are moving.
You could say that these men are protecting their own sense of gender as masculinity and transsexuals are an affront to this.
People become prejudicial when their identity is threatened.
Transsexuals will always be outliers regardless of whether they are associating with those who identitfy as heterosexual or homosexual or somewhere in between.
Like a vise closing on the transsexual they become crushed between the forces of sexual identity and gender identity in others.
Identity formation is a biological imperative that all people are compelled to create and to the degree that you are not able to you will have corresponding mental illness from the dissociative state that you are than forced to live in which is experienced as movement between intense anxiety and numbness but a complete absence of sense of self as self awareness.
The perceived threat to identity is proportional to the persons need to defend it and the need to defend it is proportional to those forces that have prevented its development.
Much of the conflict between people is from that which is missing in one person bumping up against that which is missing in another.
Natalie Wood, You mentioned your wife in your OP, so I'm thinking that you regard yourself as a hetero crossdresser. I was curious whether the gay male hair stylist knew this, and, if he did, whether you think he would have been more sympathetic if you had been a gay, bisexual or pansexual crossdresser.
Regarding the strangeness of an openly gay man being unsympathetic to CD's and TG's, is this any stranger than the conservative politicians and fundamentalist christians who are closet gays and yet extremely homophobic? Human sexuality and gender identity are far too complicated for simple explanations imo.
Last edited by StarrOfDelite; 04-21-2013 at 05:20 PM. Reason: misidentified OP in reply
What you're speaking of is Internalized Homophobia. There are also similar internalizations of every ism, such as Internalized Sexism, Internalized Racism, etc. It is what happens when one's self-loathing gets bad enough that the next step is taking on the beliefs of the oppressor.
My gay son is the same way.... so were the gay guys working at Saphora when I went into buy makeup one time.... guess bigotry and sexual preference are not related?
Prejudice hides in some of the strangest places, sometimes right under our noses where it taunts us.
There's not a single group on the planet that hasn't experienced oppression and hatred; and not one which, despite its collective experience, hasn't treated others the same horrific way. There are, I'm afraid, precious few individuals with the personal and moral character to actually treat all others as we'd want to be treated. Every immigrant group wants to close the gates behind it, every religious group wants full equality for itself, wants to be spoken of respectfully, and yet indulges in cruel comments about other, parallel groups. Not every individual in every group; but this behavior so permeates human conduct that it seems to point to a universal human tendency: everybody wants to be able to feel superior to others, and pretty much all of us give in to that temptation occasionally, some of us frequently. It's interesting, I think, that (absent conscious bullying, which is a related concept) rarely does anyone make unkind comments about "them" (no matter who "they" might be) when conscious that "one of them" is present; and when such comments are made and the presence of "one of them" is realized, the usual reaction of the offensive speaker is embarrassment. Sadly, it's a human weakness against which we all need to guard.
On another note: "Not you!You're as pure as the driven snow." Mae West used to say, "I was as pure as the driven snow . . . . but I drifted.".
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