Honest opinions please

[~Joanne~]

I have been trying to wrap my mind around a few things that I always see here on the forum. On many fronts I fail daily because I don't completely understand it. I know each of us are different and that each of us have different needs, or wants, from our dressing and such but the mentality behind them bothers me sometimes to a point that I question whether you like being dominated or just don't have a spine any more.

I will be honest here, when I first joined the forum, after reading X number of posts, I thought this was about domination more than it was about cross dressing just by what I was reading. I can see how others looking in and reading may be misguided at times. I can also see why there is a need for a private male and female section on this forum just so each can talk freely without being slammed for having your own thoughts about this.

So here is what I would like honest opinions on. To help me, and maybe a few others, understand your way of thinking.

For the Girls:

Lately, I have seen a very disturbing use of the word "ALLOW". I hate this word with a passion. It is used here way too freely. This mentality is what leads me to believe that many sisters may like to be dominated. It doesn't seem a healthy choice to be "allowed" instead of compromising. In any relationship there must be compromises but allowing or not allowing is a dangerous mentality to have from either party in a relationship. This is solely my opinion here.

Here's what I'd like to know......

why do you feel the need to be "allowed" to do anything? take the CDing completely out of the equation and you'll still see the "allowed" mentality. Throw it back into CDing and your still looking for permission to do something you have no control over to a certain extent.

For those of you who need to be allowed to dress, Does your wife/SO/GF let you "allow" her to do or not to do things the same as she does you?

Take for example, if you told your wife she isn't allowed to wear, say, flip flops.....You would get this evil stare that could cut through steel followed by a whole speech and a half about you thinking you allow her to do or not to do ANYTHING.

yet in turn she feels she has the right to tell you that your not allowed to do something? Explain this to me.

For the GG's:

I believe that you should also get an equal say about this because , honestly, your the ones throwing the word around the most. I find it disturbing when I read something, mostly in the loved ones section, where one GG says to another GG "You Allow him to do that?" or just thinking out loud, in type, "I can't believe I allow him to do this".

Using the same example I gave above, if you do not stand or tolerate being allowed to do or not to do something, why do you feel you have exclusive rights to allow or dis allow something that we have no control over to a certain extent?

Again, just for the GG's, Why is this CDing thing so hard for you to wrap your head around? I know we take our cross dressing a bit further than you take yours, actually it by a wig and not much more, but at the core they are just clothes and a CD, not TS, it is about the clothes.


As a bonus question , and because I never write anything short lol, I have also seen a lot of "look at what the GG's are wearing" to help determine what it is you wear, to go out. Sorry, but sponge bob pajama bottoms and flips flops will never be the style I am after. Too many GG's are now about comfort than looking good. Even when the occasion calls for better dressing, the generation coming up, or directly with my generation, still doesn't care.

Is blending more important than looking good or wearing what it is that YOU want to wear?


Now, I am probably going to catch heat for asking these questions but you know what, it's cold here today and some heat never hurt lol

I am just trying to figure this out. To wrap my head around it. My SO and I do NOT lay rules on each other. We do not "allow" each other to do or not to do something (this excludes cheating on each other or any other common sense sort of thing), and if it's that big of a deal, we always talk about it first, calmly, and we examine both side of the coin before making a decision together.

Have a great day today and I hope everyone has a safe and joyful weekend

[Frédérique]

why do you feel the need to be "allowed" to do anything?

Thanks for allowing me to answer this post, I guess...

You have to respect who you’re with, correct? You need to practice compromise, correct? You would like to keep crossdressing, correct? Sacrifices need to be made, and it won’t hurt. You don’t need to be burdened with that male ego if you’re a MtF crossdresser, correct?

Just yesterday I asked my sister if it was OK to have a nap. She wondered why I would be asking such a thing, but, since I cater to her every need, 24/7, I needed the “OK” to disappear for a time. When I oversleep, as I often do, it saves a lot of time at the “hearing” next morning...

[Tracii G]

My first marriage was all about her and the children I had no say in the matter at all.
Second wife she did what she wanted and I did what I wanted.We did do a lot of things together but never pushed one not to do things on their own if they wanted.
After my first divorce I made the vow to never be controlled again.
If I get in a relationship now its known I am independent from the get go.
Its a very good question Joanne.

[Shananigans]

I'm sort of with Freddy on this one. "Allow" is really a poor word to use, but I see how it slips into people's vocabulary in terms of their relationships. Compromise is a HUGE part of relationships. It's so huge that if you don't plan on compromising on a few aspects of your life, you either a) find someone that is A-OK with those aspects, or b) stay on your own. But, even if you find someone that accepts you for all of you...someone who has absolutely no problem with CDing...you are STILL going to end up compromising on a few things if you are in a relationship. It's not even necessarily huge things...but, you WILL find yourself compromising.

It's hard to explain, but when you are with someone for a long time, your happiness becomes tied to their happiness. You really do want your SO to be happy, so you find that compromising brings you more happiness in the end. However, compromise is a two-way street.

I don't mean to pry, but it feels like you have been reading people with a bit of a biased eye. Your post seems to indicate that men always give up something for women, women "allow" men to do only certain things, and you don't even understand what all the fuss is about because women essentially dress like crap. Now, I don't know what part of the world that you live in...but, I am going to go ahead and assume that not all women are wearing pajamas and flip flops out and about. Women's fashion is a huge industry, because women put a lot of money into it...makeup products, magazines, clothes...these are multi-billion dollar industries focused at the female appearance. So, perhaps, instead of looking for the well-dressed women, you are looking for the poorly dressed women so that you can have a reason on your list to feel better about your own appearance?

[Lorileah]

You have to respect who you’re with, correct? You need to practice compromise, correct? You would like to keep crossdressing, correct? Sacrifices need to be made, and it won’t hurt. You don’t need to be burdened with that male ego if you’re a MtF crossdresser, correct?

you forgot that since these are people who are married, most the CDs would still like sex once in awhile. I am going to add an extra dimension here, responsibility, maturity and common sense. We all know that many CDs go crazy when they dress (I just spent 80$ on three dresses when I have 3 closets full already). So spending, dressing, putting yourself in a position where you can embarrass yourself and your family, I think "allowed" is a good word. I think saying allowed is a good way of saying "if I want to stay married and enjoy what I have I have compromised. Saying 'allowed' is just my way of saying I compromised but I don't want to sound like a wimp"

I disagree with the comparison of the male "allowing" the female what to wear. Honestly...There is a difference here. The difference is how the clothing is labeled. You may not agree with some women's fashion sense. I don't agree with many people's idea of what looks good. I only hope that these fashion choices will disappear rapidly (so far I have been disappointed...what is with the ball cap backwards thing???). However I don't think women would tell their husband he could not wear baggy jeans, or ratty shoes, or a polo shirt. They are "allowing" the use of an unconventional item of clothing. Flip flops are common clothing for many women. Now if the male insists on say pearls and pumps...that would be different. That would be domination. (and those who are into domination Joanne would totally disagree with how you are defining this)

Would you please either re-write or otherwise explain that sentence? It makes NO sense...

Joanne dropped a "w' it should read "what" not "hat".

Another extreme here. Blending is what would fit the venue. I would be over dressed in most daily venues. I wear business dress or cocktail/dressy clothes mostly. I have jeans, I have polos and other tops, I have sandals...all of which I wear on a daily basis and would "blend" with most women in my demographic. The extreme is the teenagers (male and female) who have to make a statement. Really no different than what many here want to do. I was raised with platform shoes and wide white belts. Now I see they were not the most logical clothing but that is what we wore. However, middle aged women at the time wore similar clothing to what middle aged women wear now,. Plain comfortable clothes. (style is a little different...capris were out, high waist slacks were in..). Do I blend? NO, not at night. I don't need to blend. I want to be noticed (so far so good) but during the day if I wore a wig, I would very likely blend into the middle class women I see.

Now a caveat...don't let this get into a flame war with or about women

[Kate Simmons]

To set the record straight the word "allow" isn't in my vocabulary either. Whatever I do or don't do is always totally my choice and I never ask "permission" to be myself because if that applies to me, it must also apply to my SO and everyone else. Some people like dictating to others but that is not and will never be my genre and it is totally lost on me.

[Tracii G]

I guess when women say "allow" it means compromise so I can see them using that word and its OK with me in that context.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

For most out there it can be really, REALLY hard to find just an accepting GG to share their life and/or lifestyle with...so most of the time one has to compromise with whomever they meet in order to live the best life they can. Personally, the word "Allow" is not in our vocabulary, BUT... its because I got lucky with the GG I married 10 years ago. We talk about things we plan on doing together to make sure we are on the same page, and unless something precludes dressing up in some way (like our son being home), then we plan something else.
As for fashion choices, I don't follow what other women are doing cause I don't care if I blend in or not. I'm a very eclectic/Victorian bohemian type and enjoy wearing clothing that makes ME feel good...if others approve, then that's icing on the cake

*hugs*

Bethany

[Darla Jean]

I read this thread three times and still am not sure I understand the complaint that is brought up in the original post. If the writer believes there is a problem with each partner in a marriage allowing the other to act in a certain way, when one should just do what comes naturally, I suggest the writer will spend a good part of her time alone. All relationships, including marriages require some forms of compromise and without compromise one can do what she pleases, but to the detriment of the relationship. I recall an aunt of whom I was very fond, who had a girlfriend that just drove me nuts...disapproving, angry and, from my perspective, simply a pain in the tush. I asked my aunt why they remained friends and she replied that when we start examining our friends for their faults, we soon find we have few friends. Compromise is natural and to be expected in any rational society in which people wish to live together in harmony.

[KellyJameson]

I do not think you are going to get the answer you are looking for and I'm not sure you understand the deep psychological undercurrents operating that create the circumstances you are witnessing.

Feel free to PM me if you want my thoughts on the subject. I think I know exactly why.

It is one of the more fascinating aspects between men and women in marriage and a dynamic that plays out constantly in every marriage regardless if the husband crossdresses.

Ultimately there are only three types of marriages and you are witnessing one of them here.

What you are witnessing goes much deeper than the crossdressing and starts in childhood.

[LilSissyStevie]

It's all a matter of perspective. My wife dominates me completely. But if my Dominatrix didn't allow me to do whatever I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it, I'd dump her and get another Domme ... in my dreams

Look, just do what you're told and nobody has to get hurt.

[AllieSF]

Nice reply Shan. I agree with you. First, the word "allow" is not one that I see here regularly, but then I live my life as I please and basically had a relationship like yours, Joanne. I would let my spouse know if I was doing something out of the normal routine and maybe ask if taking a lot of time out of my weekend day was OK, in case she had other plans. I agree with Shan that the word when used is probably more like "I prefer he wouldn't but ...". I do agree with you that some people seem so afraid of themselves and their potentially shaky relationship, that they do tend to occasionally give in way too soon on some issues and in a sense give up future rights to revisit that issue in the future to maybe change their mind.

I definitely do not buy into your whining about women wearing male styled, though made for women, clothes. That is not valid, and there are so many threads here about that specific whine, "Women can wear men's clothes and are crossdressing while men cannot". Just read the replies and you will see that many here see that complaint as total bullshit, me included. It is usually made by those that want to go out but haven't worked up their courage and confidence yet and are not man enough to admit that they are just too afraid of whatever. That "whatever" is more than an adequate excuse for me, because I only want people to go out when they are ready, because that way they have a better chance of enjoying it and doing it again.

Your example of denying a spouse her right to wear flip flops is also very weak. You need a better example to make your point. Remember what we do is very out side the norm for the way that men (for MtF's) present themselves. Having your spouse or SO wear something that draws special and probably unwanted attention to the other party is an uncomfortable situation to be in. One that we have all been in at least once during our lifetime, like when you were younger and your buddies got drunk and wanted to start fights with every one, or called out slurs to whoever, racial, ethnic, etc. I never liked that and later made decisions as to how to avoid that in the future or at least how to deal with it and not be labeled in negative terms as my friends were being labeled. That is no different for a wife whose husband wants to go out with her dressed as a female. Some wives and SO's can deal with it and some cannot. That is where those compromises come in and the word "allow" creeps into some of the posts here.

Being dominated by another has a lot of meanings and also depends on your point of view at the moment, which may not have all the background that goes into the one that may be giving in. The subservient one, in his view point, may be just cutting his losses at that moment, but in real life at home away from the crowds he may be very much the one in control, or the dominant one. He may be taking the honorable route, if in the larger picture he is actually giving up nothing. I do agree with you that some people here seem to give in way to easy and that is a shame, where a good frank discussion may help to better define, clarify and establish or maintain one's rights in the relationship. I.e. indicating to the spouse that they need or seriously want to do something. I had a smart boss at work once tell me, "Power, use it or lose it." That is partially applicable to a loving relationship, as I believe that one does need to stand up for themselves for those things that are important to them. Yes, some compromises may be needed, but at least one is not giving away the farm to please the other and to maintain their own position in the relationship.

In closing, you seem to have a relationship that I always strived for and had most of the time. It would be better for everyone to have that kind of relationship. But, in real life not all of us can pull off what the other does so successfully. Just like taking that first step out the door is not very easy for many.

[Kandy Barr]

Wow, this was an interesting subject, with some very strong replies. I really would love to reply with my 2¢ worth, but alas, I'm not allowed!!!

[docrobbysherry]

I disagree with Shana and any others that think "allow" and "compromise" mean the same or similar things in a relationship.

I had nearly 7 good years of marriage before the S hit the fan. During those seven years we had LOTS of long, heated discussions that ended in us both agreeing to a compromise. And then, we generally proved our mutual satisfaction to each other in bed!

"Allowing" sounds too much like a unilateral decision by one party in a relationship. Without them both being ALLOWED to present their case, then work out a mutually beneficial compromise!

Even after our marriage was in the dumpster, neither of us "disallowed" the other anything. We could see the writing on the wall and pretty much did whatever the H we wanted!

[ReineD]

I find it disturbing when I read something, mostly in the loved ones section, where one GG says to another GG "You Allow him to do that?" or just thinking out loud, in type, "I can't believe I allow him to do this".

I've been participating in this forum for years in all the sections, and I challenge you to find 10 posts (among the thousands) by GGs who treat their husbands like children.

I have seen couples try to navigate this, however, and some GGs do need time to catch up which is understandable. I don't blame a GG one iota if she tells her husband that she is not ready to see him dressed or she does not want it in the bedroom. Or if she tells him that she doesn't want their friends, family, coworkers, bosses to know, and so she doesn't want him to go out dressed.

Again, just for the GG's, Why is this CDing thing so hard for you to wrap your head around? I know we take our cross dressing a bit further than you take yours, actually it by a wig and not much more, but at the core they are just clothes and a CD, not TS, it is about the clothes.

Pretend you're a GG for a moment. You've been married for many years and you have no clue that your husband is a CDer. One day you find trans-porn history on the computer. Or you see a cybersex email in the mailbox he has left open. Or you see that he has joined a dating site with a picture of him dressed and saying that he is bi. Or you find his Flickr site with tons of pictures of him wearing big boobs in lingerie, in suggestive poses.

Or, you don't find anything on the computer, but you find a stash of clothes, enough to let you know that he has been leading a double life for a while now. .... without having shared any of it with you, his most intimate relationship!

Or, he tells you about the CDing (remember, you've been married for at least a decade), and while you are trying to wrap your mind around this, he goes into a huge pink fog ordering tons of clothes, wigs, breastforms, shaving his body, joining TG support groups, plucking his eyebrows, getting ears pierced, etc ... and he expects you to accept this and to also intuitively "know" that he is not doing this to attract men and that he has no plans for transition.

... And then tell me how you would react to all of this.

I have also seen a lot of "look at what the GG's are wearing" to help determine what it is you wear, to go out. Sorry, but sponge bob pajama bottoms and flips flops will never be the style I am after. Too many GG's are now about comfort than looking good. Even when the occasion calls for better dressing, the generation coming up, or directly with my generation, still doesn't care.

You must be hanging out on campuses early on a Monday morning, where, FYI guys also wear baggy Tshirts and flannels. lol. You should take your wife out to dinner at a nice restaurant tomorrow night. I guarantee you won't see any women there wearing Sponge Bob bottoms. Or go to a nightclub sometime and watch all the young GGs in their club wear. Your eyes will pop out of your head!

[NicoleScott]

Other have addressed the "allow" issue pretty well, so I'll tackle just this one:

Is blending more important than looking good or wearing what it is that YOU want to wear?

No, I'd rather wear what I like than try to blend. I know that what I do doesn't pass well, so I stay at home more now. I used to go out some, and liked the excitement. I can blend, and have, but found it less [fulfilling, fun, exciting...] than achieving the look I like. So that's the choice I make.

[Di]

FIRST let me say this the posts you are bringing up are new GGs that just found out and cone to the loved ones section for help....they are scared and confused

I believe that you should also get an equal say about this because , honestly, your the ones throwing the word around the most. I find it disturbing when I read something, mostly in the loved ones section, where one GG says to another GG "You Allow him to do that?" or just thinking out loud, in type, "I can't believe I allow him to do this".

I think the ALLOW word is mostly new GGs trying to talk about compromise and doing things slowly having to do with just finding out and finding a way to make things work between them.

Again, just for the GG's, Why is this CDing thing so hard for you to wrap your head around?

I am saying this from my experience here and a local tg support group of GGs....the GGs who ( as you phrased it) have a hard time wraping their head around it is more about the NOT knowing and feeling like they were lied to......and if and when they get over that they explore with their partner what it all means.

I have also seen a lot of "look at what the GG's are wearing" to help determine what it is you wear, to go out. Sorry, but sponge bob pajama bottoms and flips flops will never be the style I am after. Too many GG's are now about comfort than looking good. Even when the occasion calls for better dressing, the generation coming up, or directly with my generation, still doesn't care.

Is blending more important than looking good or wearing hat it is that YOU want to wear?

Well I do not care for that look either....and wear skirts, sundresses and what ever I like BUT I say they, you, everyone can wear whatever they like.

[I Am Paula]

Allowed is not a bad word in the right context. My peeve is the girls here who say 'I've never talked to my wife about my desires cause I know she would not allow it' ...now that's defeat before the fight.

[Barbara Ella]

The dynamic of a marriage is a powerful force. My wife knows I cross dress, and has not asked me to stop. She does not allow me to dress, she knows I will dress, and she asks me not to do it in her presence. She knows I need to get out, have gone out, and has asked me not to do it in our town. In a dynamic such as this there are personal respects that are observed to maintain the marriage, if both wish it to continue. If one or the other wishes the marriage to not continue, then the feeling of allowing will creep in and one will feel that they are allowing the other's behavior, and when this feeling creeps into both partner's thinking, the end has begun.

Barbara

[ReineD]

Allowed is not a bad word in the right context. My peeve is the girls here who say 'I've never talked to my wife about my desires cause I know she would not allow it' ...now that's defeat before the fight.

Very good point. I mostly hear the word "not allow" from CDers and not their wives.

[DawnD]

I too have read some things in this forum that have disturbed me. I don't pretend to know where everyone else is at in their relationship, but I do know the road that my SO and I have traveled. It has not always been easy. Sometimes for him, sometimes for me. I can honestly say that I've never approached him and asked him to not dress. It is a part of him, regardless of how it effects me. I've never been so fundamentally offended by anything he has done or worn that I would feel compelled to ask him to not dress in my presence. But I'm a very open minded person who is in absolute love with my husband. And, I'm a strong enough woman to sort out what it all means to me, and work through my own fragile ego.

We have worked through some of the struggles that he has had with himself, and what his CD means to him. We addressed some of the struggles I had as far as how I defined myself in relation to his dressing. But, we worked through them together. It was never a negotiation. It was two people in love wanting to support and be there for one another. I cannot fathom ever telling him that he can't express a part of himself. Whether that part wants to wear a skirt, or if it's the part of him that likes to wear spandex and pedal his butt through the woods on a bike. He never tells me that I can't walk out of the house in fatigues and my combat boots. The fundamental parts of what makes us ourselves are never up for negotiation or compromise.

Alas, I have known from the beginning of our relationship that he is a cross dresser. I do not know how I would have reacted if I would have been kept in the dark for years. I believe that I would've tried to adjust and sort through it together. I can understand setting a pace to work it into the relationship. There are aspects of cross dressing that need time to be absorbed and worked through psychologically. It's a struggle for both sides of the relationship, but as long as you're willing to grow together, you can make strides in that direction.

I do understand where you are coming from Joanne. Coming from a truly accepting relationships like we do, it can be frustrating, and almost scary to see that word "allow" thrown around. I know people in my own life whose relationships are in a lopsided power struggle. It has nothing to do with cross dressing, and everything to do with the relationship itself. Honestly, I cringe when I hear one of my friends asking their spouse's permission to do something. I could never imagine bending myself to someone else's will like that, and have no interest in seeing the people I care about in relationship's like that. I think it's why it bothers me to see it here. I have seen the struggle's first hand, and read so many stories here that have gone through psychological hell just to live with and love themselves, that I hate to see it lost or tested so harshly with an SO.

I can honestly say I just want the best for everyone. I know it's not all sunshine and roses, but a girl can dream right?

[~Joanne~]

Thank you all for the feedback and opinions. I really want to address a few points, and accept reine's challenge LOL, but I am way too tired unfortunately to do so tonight, or this morning as it may be. I may or may not tomorrow depending if this thread is still going or how I feel about it then This wasn't to start a holy war, for or against women. This whole "allow" thing is a two sided coins that just lands heads here on this forum as it has to do with CDing. This mentality unfortunately extends far beyond the CDing.

I just want to say there is quite a difference between "being allowed" and "compromising". These are two quite different words with two quite different meanings.

Compromise - settlement of differences reached by mutual concessions

Allow - to give permission for or to approve of

You are not compromising if your being allowed, your are being controlled and in any relationship, that can be a dangerous thing even if you take the CDing out of it.

I do not see how the context of the word "allow" can be the same as "compromise" I am sorry, I wish I could.

[ReineD]

Joanne, maybe the term "allow" is the best way that a person can describe establishing boundaries. I just can't imagine a wife saying, "I forbid you to do this". But I can imagine her saying, if she comes from an ultra conservative background, "This is a deal breaker for me, and if you continue to do this I cannot stay in this marriage". However, most of the GGs who have joined this forum and who have difficulty with the CDing have said, "I don't get it, he lied to me, I'm afraid, I don't want others finding out, and I just want him to stop lying to me and going behind my back".

The ONLY time I hear stories of ultimatums is when CDers tell their own versions of the story. I do not hear this from the wives. In fact, there was once a CDer who started a long thread about his wife's ultimatum. She ended up joining and she posted directly in her husband's thread with her version of the story, which was that he had not heard a word that she said and that he was putting his own spin on it entirely. She had not given him an ultimatum. She had instead told him why she was unhappy and I could not blame her. I would also be devastated if I found out years and years after the fact that my husband had been doing something behind my back.

CDers need to allow their wives just as much time to get used to the idea as it took the CDers to move beyond all the purging cycles.

[Norah_joy]

I may hold the record for waiting the longest time before telling my wife. We have been married 50 years and it wasn't until 13 years ago that I told her I crossdress. So when we talked about establishing boundaries, I wasn't exactly in a strong negotiating position. So yes, our "negotiation" was all about determining what she would allow. I dress at home when she isn't at home. She has no interest in seeing me dressed and never has. I must accept responsibility for keeping my secret for so many years. Of course she would say it wasn't just keeping a secret; she'd say I lied to her. Norah

[daviolin]

I'm not real good at answering questions of this magnitude. But I will add my two cents worth.
I went with the ALLOW situation for awhile, because I didn't break the news to my wife until 32 years after we were married. It was a big shock to her, and we almost got a divorce over it. I didn't want that to happen because I really do love my wife very much, So I didn't want to throw away a perfectly good marriage over my dressing habits. We now have it under control. I can dress anytime I want, and she doesn't give me any grief over it. But on the same note I don't push the envelope ether. Daviolin