The term "passing" is controversial here at crossdressers.com. I found a subredit that embraces the term and encourages it. What is interesting is the girls there are much younger on average.
Interesting Huh?
http://www.reddit.com/r/transpassing...ct_sr=on&t=all
Interesting. I find there is a myth on here that no one passes. That is not the truth. There are some people who will never pass, and there are some who very much pass. I personally know some of each. On some people it is possible but not easy.
All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?
The reddit trans community is my primary community. /r/transpassing is occasionally used by crossdressers, but most of the posts are from transsexuals. The ages do skew young, but I've seen trans women in their 30s and 40s post there and get a good reaction. As a whole I don't find the reddit trans community to be elitist or age-phobic.
The reality I've found is that passing is not a binary "pass" or "fail", there is a continuum of quasi-passing states: I pass better or worse to different people, on different days, for different amounts of time (i.e. the more time they spend with me, the more certainly they know I'm trans). So the transpassing subreddit is mostly about sharing tips and giving objective feedback, as well as boosting each other's self-esteem.
Younger ones pass more easily as they have not formed set features yet. They still have smooth tight young skin
With older people they are starting to get lines in their face and other blemishes that age creates.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
There r 3 categories of dressers when it comes to passing.
1. Those that could care less whether they pass or not. They go out fearlessly anyway. Some say they pass but most don't even think about it.
2. Those of us that don't pass. Most of us know it. But, there r a few dreamers out there that mistake "acceptance" or "tolerance" for passing.
3. Those very rare few who actually can and do pass. They r treated like women. Which is a completely different experience from 1. and 2. above!
Last edited by docrobbysherry; 06-26-2013 at 10:47 AM.
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
The pics in that thread are all of very young people, most of whom have already started HRT. They will not look as masculine at 40-50 years old like the majority of CDers here who have never been on HRT. Conversely, take anyone who is now 40-50 years old and go back in time. Put a wig and makeup on them at 20 years old and you will see that they will pass just as easily. Testosterone continues to change a man's physiognomy until middle age.Originally Posted by almostalady
Reine
well, "passing" to me means 100%. Up close and personal.
If passing were limited to not being pointed at, then I would say I pass 99% of the time, but since my quality of life depends on not being read at all, at any time, for any reason, then my definition for passing is absolutely unattainable by any but the most exceptional Cross-dresser as well as most late transitioners.
I have not yet reached this level of realness, but I will.
My GW friend tells me that I "pass" well. Apparently, this is true.
Recently, I attended a Celebration of Life function for her SO who died as a result of a brain tumor. While there I visited one-on-one with her aunt for at least 20 minutes. Based upon what she was saying to me I am sure that she thought I was a GW like she is.
A short time later I had a one-on-one conversation with a woman who had been my friend's best girl friend since 3rd grade. This conversation also lasted about 20 minutes. This woman knows that my GW friend has many "T" friends. As she was preparing to leave she asked my GW friend if this Carole was the one with whom she went to dinner, etc. My friend said yes, she is. This woman then said to my friend "She is a genetic female, right"? My friend told her no, she is a "T" girl/CD. This woman then said that she (I) certainly did and said correctly all of the things that a genetic female would. My friend told her that I would be very pleased to hear that!
Needless to say, I was very pleased!
Hugs, Carole
I'm sure it is! Your avatar is lovely.
"Passability" is at a high during late teens and early 20s, when genetic males are fresh faced and many don't have coarse beard yet. then it begins to dip as more testosterone is produced until passability (in general) reaches an all-time low during middle age (40s, 50s). And THEN ... as testosterone begins to decrease, passability begins to rise until it reaches a high again, I'd say mid 60s, 70s, and during the 80s especially. This is because women of the same age have lost estrogen since their own middle age and so there isn't as wide a gap between male and female looks. Both men and women tend to age in a similar manner, that is with gravity. Generally speaking.
People tend to subconsciously compare the looks of similarly aged people, when deciding whether to classify someone in either the male or female camp.
Reine
While I have your attention,I stated[directed at Lea] that if any out and about T is "clocked",it doesn't matter to the observer,what type of T it is...it is a "T something "to them.In most cases they may only smile..Anyway,there is no CSI cadaver table to put the girl on a further investigate what is in her panties and surmise where she may fall on the T spectrum. So,mainstream people are quick with their gendering.In reality,you being a TS in transition working to improve your questionability,is no different than an out and about non transitioner. If either one of us wants to live stealth,they have to move away and start over. Reaching for a level of realness has nothing to do with what is in anyone's panties it is a goal that can be worked on by anyone on the T spectrum.
It SURE is my hair ! I have the receipt and the box it came in !
Oh to have that young skin again! Being older, taller than average and having not extreme but definite masculine facial features...and shoulders and man hands (my this is getting depressing) I have no illusions about passing, certainly not 100percent close up, convincingly feminine passing. I suspect the same would have been substantially true in my 20s. And unattainable though passing may be in my case, I still, following Sherry's classification, can go out comfortably and elicit a minimum of attention. I value that as much for my companions as for myself.
Melissa, I share your definition. And, "If passing were limited to not being pointed at...," I pass 100% of the time! So that bar is just too low. People don't point. I don't pass. I'd like to blend but I think the harsh reality is that the most I can hope for is causing confusion at first glance.
Ahh, to be young again. Not going to happen so we ole birds must make do with what we've got! (Which ain't much honey, but I'm still having fun!!!!!) Interesting what ReineD has to say about aging and testosterone levels dropping, thereby narrowing the gender gap, both have to deal with the sagging skin though. I was impressed with the help and support the young girls were giving each other, I think that's important whether a girl is transitioning or cding. If we don't give each other support, who will? Thanks for the link Paula, yes, it was interesting.
Link to my flickr photostream:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kandybarr
Sherry, I'm probably in your Group #1. I've been told I pass really well, both on this site and in my group meetings, but I don't consciously focus on it when going out. I just maintain my confidence, and let whatever magic I have work. It seems to work; nobody blurts out anything in my presence to suggest otherwise...
I just wonder if I'm setting myself up for a big fall the first time someone blatantly throws it back at me and disrupts that carefully-built self-image. Yes, I know, I'm kind of expecting the worst, but there's always a first time.
- Amy
Amy Gale Ruth Bowersox (nee Tapie) - "Be who you are, and be it in style!"
Member, Board of Trustees, Gender Identity Center of Colorado
aka Amelia Storm - Ms. Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2018-2019, Miss Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2015-2016
I've been told that as well. It's a backhanded compliment.
I know I'm passing when people DON'T tell me how well I'm passing.
My SO has been going out for a long time now. She's been going out about twice per week for about 5 years. To put it in context, she is just over 6' in low heels, she has her own mid-back hair, no receding hairline, her own long finger nails, and her feet and hands are a touch smaller than mine. And yes, it still hurts when an uncouth passerby makes a rude comment. The trick is to put it down to ignorance and know that most people are better behaved.
Reine
Lately I've been coming to the conclusion "passing" is between the ears. I have worked hard on my dressing and in my mind will never "pass" until I have the confidence. So guess what I'm working on?
Hi
do all of us women pass do we all look like females or women , i know many who dont , that does not mean we are not natal females it just means we have abnormal hormones that have not worked in the way they should have, & that covers a very wide spectrim for many women some because of health issues others thier body is fighting itself some are just born like myself with masculine facail features ,
yet we are still who we are , is it our looks that make us who we are , or can we look a bit deeper & find the real person the real nature of what makes us in our makeup that the person is more than how we look.
I have women friends who have & will tell me this because as women we dont all come with that female look. yes it gets to me & i have to fight it, i go through the as iv just done tonight looking at the so lovely beautyfull clothes that our Edwardian women could wear then & those i know from our group wear.
I look at them & know i'd look stupid if i wear those clothes , i dont look right its hard knowing i would love to wear some of them even be lovely makeing them ,
I just happen to be plainer than plain jane, its horibale , its very discouaging to say the least, I looked at over 100 outfits just so gorgeous, & would it be lovely to wear some you can answer that. oh well thats my night time for bed,
...noeleena...
When I think of "passing", I think "distance". Can I pass at twenty feet? Ten feet? Up close? In a conversation with someone?
Personally, I'm not a transexual, I'm not trying to live as a woman, I don't shave my legs or arms, so I'm aiming to pass at twenty feet or so. As in walking down the street or through the mall. Or putting gas into my car.
My odds of passing vary with the season. Late fall, winter, and early spring, GGs are wearing hose or tights and long sleeved blouses. I can do the same. Hot weather changes everything. It's either cover up and look out of place or bare the skin and show the hair.
We all have our own goals and that's fine. We try to meet our goals and can be proud of ourselves if we do.
[SIGPIC]http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=82706&dateline=137762 0356[/SIGPIC]Linda
Reine, your comments regarding the cycle(s) of "passability" that we CDers experience are spot-on, and while I missed the boat on this in my late teens and early 20's, I began to more than make up for this in my late 50's when I started to go out in public as "Leslie" on a regular basis.I'm sure it is! Your avatar is lovely.
"Passability" is at a high during late teens and early 20s, when genetic males are fresh faced and many don't have coarse beard yet. then it begins to dip as more testosterone is produced until passability (in general) reaches an all-time low during middle age (40s, 50s). And THEN ... as testosterone begins to decrease, passability begins to rise until it reaches a high again, I'd say mid 60s, 70s, and during the 80s especially. This is because women of the same age have lost estrogen since their own middle age and so there isn't as wide a gap between male and female looks. Both men and women tend to age in a similar manner, that is with gravity. Generally speaking.
People tend to subconsciously compare the looks of similarly aged people, when deciding whether to classify someone in either the male or female camp.
I had always had a touch of "man-boobs" as I was never the skinny type, and my hips and butt tend to be a bit on the fuller side compared with most men's. Consequently, women's clothes always fit me quite well and it was never a problem to find something that I would look good in. My facial structure was also always somewhat middle of-the road, so I don't think that I necessarily scream "man in a dress!" when in "Leslie" mode. Of course, judicious application of make up is certainly my friend in this regard.
But my biggest impediment over the years when it came to going out in public had been my dark and heavy beard, which has thankfully turned almost entirely gray in the meantime and is now far, far easier to cover up. And that was the trigger for me to finally venture out into the big, bad world en femme. I can now be out and about for up to 12 hours at a stretch without showing any perceptible signs of wear and tear as long as I touch up my make up occasionally. Since my skin has gotten softer and less elastic as well during that time (O.K., O.K. - more wrinkled!), it has also taken on certain attributes normally associated with the female face.
Yes, declining testosterone levels have undoubtedly played a part in all this, and in most instances, that particular male hormone is not the crossdresser's friend. But the flip side is that we have also been spared the ravages that estrogen - or more precisely - the lack of it can cause, and which is typically associated with menopause. We CDer's are not normally afflicted with cellulite, varicose veins, underarm "bat-wings", drooping breasts, expanding backsides, or bunions etc. - things that my wife along with millions of other GG's incessantly obsess over.
I actually wonder sometimes if we are barking up the wrong tree when we worry so much about our heights, "manly" faces, wide shoulders, large hands and feet, or deep voices when it comes to our passability challenges. GG's have antennas that are far more finely-tuned to the subtleties of feminine appearance, comportment, and demeanor than we often realize, and I would submit that some of the things (or lack thereof) that I have listed above would register just as prominently on their radar screens when compared with what we normally worry about when it comes to assessing our own "passability"...
I agree. To me, passing is more about the balance between how much attention you're attire generates vs. the degree to which you can be mistaken for a female. The male psyche is very tuned to the subties of femininity and I for one, can spot a female form hundreds of yards away especially when I was younger. It's almost like an art in that I can imagine the fertility of the woman somewhat or see into the fertility because that's how I'm wired when I'm in guy mode. I think that the degree to which a CDer is physically attractive can make passing harder because it invites deep scrutiny. I've been noticing that frumpy outfits on women tend to make me less discerning. It would be interesting to do some sort of correleational research on this huh?
A picture can only tell us so much about passibility. The true measure of how we are perceived by others as women is how we move, carry ourselves, our gestures, and our facial expression.
Last weekend, I was out to an event accompanied by 11 other cd's. It was a boat dinner cruise on Lake Erie. As my friend and I were sitting waiting for the others to arrive, we noted two or our group approaching us. Lookswise, they looked great. Dressed appropriately with great makeup and hair. They both walked and moved like a couple of NFL linebackers. Looked great? Yes. Passible? Not even close.
My point is that a picture is just a little portion of how we would pass. The rest of it is getting out there and acting the part, which very few of us can really do.
Jodi
Jodi,
I agree, my wife and i were just taliking about, we are going to Vegas and there is a CD contest at Dink and Drag sunday nights so i said what do you think? she said no way you would not pass, of course the look on my face said it all and she quickly said. you look good dressed but you need a lot of practice on the mannerisms and the walk, she then told me to practice, practice , did i say i love my wife ?
Passing is not a dirty word. I think some hard working people get bent out of shape when someone else claims they pass with no effort at all. The problem with all of this it that it is subjective, it is the person's own confidence or lack of it that determines what they believe. A lot of TS people are way too critical and a lot of CDers are way too excited when they feel like they passed for a short time. Its just apples and oranges, two meanings of the same word. Way too much energy spent debating it.
Chickie
Melissa, please don't take this as disagreement or criticism, but could I ask why you feel like your "quality of life depends on not being read at all, at any time, for any reason"? For me it's been the opposite experience; it was liberating to realize that my quality of life didn't depend on passing, and that as long as I'm treated with respect I don't care if I'm read. Not that I don't try to blend as well as I can, just that I don't worry so much about knowing I won't reach an unattainable goal. My friends and lovers will know I'm trans anyway, and while I'd love for every random stranger I meet to think I'm a GG, if they don't it's no big deal as long as they treat me nicely (and they nearly always do).
I'm part-time and can and do fall back to male drag when the effort to look and feel presentable seems too much, so maybe it's just that I'm only outwardly femme when I'm already feeling self-confident and ready to take ups and downs of passing and acceptance as they come.
I'm just curious why we see it so differently.
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