A thought about how society sees males who wear make-up...

[heathr1]

Today, while in the high street, I saw two male goths.

Dyed hair, black mascara, eyeliner, black nail polish.

Society, here in the UK anyway, accepts this as the goth thing.

Had it been two men wearing pink lipstick, and blue eyeshadow and pink nail polish, maybe people would have a different perception of them.

Not fair, is it?

[Amelie]

Goths are out and about, most CDs reside in the closet.

Goths have an attitude where they don't care what society thinks, but CDs are always looking for acceptence so the CD has more of a fear of the public.

Before goths, there were punks. Punks were made fun of, called faggots, and got into a lot of fights. But they stood up for what they believed and walked out and about until people got used to them and now the same for goths. OK from what I hear in this forum, all places of the US aren't safe for goths so they have a way to go as well.

I know that most CDs are older and have jobs and families to consider. But the young CDs can do the same as the punks and goths and get out and about and defend their right to do so.

[Nyx]

Society in general has a very bad perception of crossdressers and transsexuals. I think it's mostly for two reasons:

1) Men who feel insecure about their sexual orientation and/or are looking for reasons to harass people.

2) Women who perceive CD and TS as taking something away from them, as "stealing" what they cherish most: their feminity.

Fair or unfair. Some people are into the CD/TS business for fetichist reasons. I have spoken on urnotalone chats to men whose fantasy it is to be humiliated and "feminized". These people have brought a fairly bad reputation to the whole transgender community in general. The problem now, is that the general public tends to perceive everything having to do with transgender as some silly sexual deviation. Goths on the other hand, they're just scary people, you know, that's okay.

There is that, and there is the fact that people wrongly associate transgender with homosexual. Even some homosexuals, which you would expect to be more open minded than the average person, do associate tg with homosexuality. People nowadays pretend to be more accepting of homosexuality, but one of the thing that helps homosexuals get by, is that it's not written on their forehead that they are gay. However, if you ever have two girls kissing in public, for example, you're going to get a *very* negative reaction from people around. So, since they can often see that people are TG, and they associate that with homosexuality, it's something else that makes them react negatively.

As far as showing the world how unafraid of them we are, and standing for our rights, its a bit more difficult. One person on 10 or so is gay. One person on 1000 or so is TG... And most are still "in the closet". The fact is, we are so rare, that its difficult to meet other TG people in our daily life. I would say your best bet is to join a local TG organization if you want to make TG friends, that is, if your city/area is big enough to have one. Otherwise, you're out of luck. I mean, imagine the 16 year old M2F transsexual living in a small town in texas. Do you think that person will be able to fight for her rights? Her only chance is to get out of that place.

By the way, are you heather on MSN? If so, you need to come online more often

[Julie]

Goths aren't trying to pass as the opposite sex, at least as far as Joe Blow on the streets is concerned. Probably the biggest taboo in our society (that is harmless to others) is a male doing anything that is related to the female. Break that and you will get all sorts of reactions.

[Sarahgurl371]

I agree that most of our problems in society, real or perceived, are due to the fact that most people, even myself at times relate CDing to SEX. While there is certainly a sexual component, its not all about sex. But so many people have sexual hang ups, at least publicly, that the chance to make fun of or ridicule somone who others perceive as outside the "norm" sexually is too appealing. By making fun of the "abnormal" types, they cover up thier own insecurities and perculiararities. And then no one looks too closely at them and their fantasies.

I think some people may see "goth" people, or "punks", or "tattoo" freaks as odd, but they do not view that physical expression with those who blur accepted gender and sexual norms.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

OK, Julie beat me to it, but just a reminder, it ain't the clothes, it's the intent that people often have problems with.

[Ava Mouse]

Great comments!

I like Amelie's comment, which makes me think that Goths have acceptance, but we don't. Perhaps we need a little more "I don't need your acceptance to do what I want" kinda attitude and we'll gain more acceptance than begging for it...?

I wonder what would've happened if I came out of the closet as a Goth to my wife & friends..? hmmm...

[Drucilla]

Recently visited local Starbucks. Guy who server my coffee had full facial makeup.
Was dressed totally male except for blue eye shadow, brow liner, lip gloss, etc.
He seemed to be quite a hit with the other girls who worked there. Kinda nice to see someone feeling totally free to express themselves and a work environment that seemed to totally accept this.

[Angela Burke]

There must be goths who crossdress.
There must be crossdressers in all areas of society.
I was thinking "crossdressing nudists? ", but yes, a wig, makeup, and heels, why not?
I'm not into "outing" people ( what someone wants to wear is their choice),
but I love watching male television personalities, politicians etc. any of whom have a very "proper" public personna and wondering how many of them are crossdressers.
Imagine Prime Ministers question time with all the male MPs in drag, wouldn't that be fantastic ?
Mmmm, maybe not so fantastic.

Love Angela XX

[Emma Chase]

I think that as time goes by and the metro sexual make becomes more aceptable we will be seeing more make up / beauty products for men... the proof is below, it's a multi million doller business .... and growing yearly!!

http://www.4voo.com


Emma

[Michelle Hart]

Can you name one........just one...........Male actor or TV personality hat wears NO makup?




You can't because they all do. The difference is for them it is to make them look better. For us it is to apear as somthing we are not.

How many actors can you think of that have Xdressed for a role?


They do it for a job we do it for fun/pleasure/need/ etc.


Their famous we are not. It sucks but someday maybee it will change.

[Kimberly]

No, it isn't fair... but think of the reaction to Boy George in the 80s. Did he give a shit? No... Antony and the Johnsons - Antony is a TG and wears pretty androgynous clothing and make-up! Some papers have made a fuss about it, but people love his musicand they don't care about his appearance.

1) It's all about the fact of what drives us to do things. Goths = alternate = bending gender rules.... CDs however, want to look like a woman. This is heavier than wanting to be a goth, because it's about our fundamental expression of ourselves. People have a hard time coping with that.
2) It's also about just doing it. Building your confidence up enough to stand and say, "Look, I'm wearing make-up because it makes me look more attractive, and I don't care what you think!"

$0.02 ... kerching!

xx